I don't think anyone would miss the bottom 15 conferences, maybe not the bottom 20.

A lot more people would miss those conferences you here so blithely dismissing

(03-20-2015 11:59 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  A lot more people would miss those conferences you here so blithely dismissing

If you create a Summit of the Horizon Conference and a Northeastern American East Conference nobody would notice

You guys sound like Bob Knight and Digger Phelps years back before a string of underdogs ruined brackets everywhere, including Davidson led by Steph Curry, from a bottom 15 conference. It adds variety and intrigue.

Let the little guys have their one shining moment, most never advance beyond the first weekend anyways. I can't even remember the last team from such a conference to do so.

SWAC-never wins a game
MEAC-no
Northeast-no
Big Sky-no
Big South-no
Southland-no
Summit-Not since Bryce Drew and Valpo
A-Sun-FGCU and it was lots of fun.
Horizon-Besides the anomaly, Butler, no
Big West-Not since UNLV
MAC-Kent State, Miami U
WAC-Not since most of the current MWC membership did so.

I could go on and it can be said I'm making your point but I like it the way it is, because they occasionally break through and when one does it's lots of fun.

(03-20-2015 07:26 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(03-20-2015 07:10 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(03-20-2015 05:18 PM)Wedge Wrote:  That's a strawman argument because you're imagining a basketball tournament composed exclusively of P5 teams. As far as I know, that has never been seriously proposed by anyone in any position of authority.

What Delany and others have said, at various times, is that the P5 conferences' teams contribute more value to the NCAA tournament than is reflected in the % share paid out by the NCAA. No one in a position of authority with the NCAA or any school or conference outside the P5 seriously disputes that.

At some point, the P5 will say, give us a greater share of the CBS/Turner loot -- and that starts with the NCAA hoarding less of that loot for itself and distributing a lot more of it to the participating teams. See the recent discussion elsewhere on this board.

The money paid out to participating teams is less than one-third of what CBS/Turner pay to the NCAA. The NCAA's bureaucracy is hoovering up far too much of that money. (And a very large chunk is siphoned off by the NCAA for a giant cash stash that they keep in case they ever lose control of all that money.)

Now, if the NCAA is stupid enough to keep an iron grip on all that money forever, no matter what, then yes, someday the P5 might start their own tournament. They'll invite enough teams from non-P5 leagues, esp. the top 10-15 conferences, to keep the March Madness flavor. These commissioners and ADs know how to make money. They'll find a formula that will keep the TV guys happy and the money flowing, if it ever comes to the point where they have to start their own tournament.

Actually---it has been proposed. That is EXACTLY what is implicit in every instance where the P5 rattle their sabres and start talking about the possibility of a split from the NCAA. That's why they always get their way, because a portion of a loaf is far better than no loaf at all.

There's a big difference between saber-rattling and a serious plan.

Also, if they ever start their own successor to the NCAA, and invite non-P5 schools to join -- which is extremely likely, because there's no reason to want all-sports competition exclusively between 65 schools scattered all over the U.S. -- what are the non-P5ers going to do? If Houston has a choice between joining a new association started by the P5 versus staying with an NCAA that will be dominated by schools with no football team and basketball teams that play in 1,000 seat gyms, they're going to join the new club run by the P5, even though the P5 will make the rules and control the distribution of the association's revenue. You'd be outraged if they didn't make that choice.

And that's a big part of why the saber rattling works. Because even as hidebound as they are, the NCAA has to come back to the realization that if the Big Boys ever leave, they won't be the only ones who leave.

It's a valid threat. It wouldn't matter to the P5 if it lost some lustre being a p5 only affair. A P5 only affai would be controlled by the P5 and they would keep ALL the money. It's value could fall by 50% and the P5 would still reap a windfall. The commissioners and AD's of the P5 are all about money--I mean, literally the main purpose of of a commissioner or AD is to generate more money. That would be a perfectly acceptable outcome for the P5.

Sorry, but you are wrong. The tournament staying how it is, it is the only way that the lesser schools in the NCAA don't start using their voting power to seriously hamper the Majors. If they mess with the Tournament then kiss the NCAA goodbye because that is the golden goose for the minor schools and conferences.

They will make a few threats on it, just to remind those schools of why they should let the Majors do what they want to with football. Basketball wont end up being touched though because those lesser are not ran by idiots.

(03-20-2015 05:18 PM)Wedge Wrote:  That's a strawman argument because you're imagining a basketball tournament composed exclusively of P5 teams. As far as I know, that has never been seriously proposed by anyone in any position of authority.

In the mid 80s I believe this was proposed.

(03-21-2015 09:25 AM)He1nousOne Wrote:  Sorry, but you are wrong. The tournament staying how it is, it is the only way that the lesser schools in the NCAA don't start using their voting power to seriously hamper the Majors. If they mess with the Tournament then kiss the NCAA goodbye because that is the golden goose for the minor schools and conferences.

They will make a few threats on it, just to remind those schools of why they should let the Majors do what they want to with football. Basketball wont end up being touched though because those lesser are not ran by idiots.

Saying bye bye to NCAA would be the whole point in that senario. A slimmer leaner organization created and controlled by the P5 would replace the NCAA. Think CFA with governance/enforcement powers

(03-21-2015 11:39 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(03-21-2015 09:25 AM)He1nousOne Wrote:  Sorry, but you are wrong. The tournament staying how it is, it is the only way that the lesser schools in the NCAA don't start using their voting power to seriously hamper the Majors. If they mess with the Tournament then kiss the NCAA goodbye because that is the golden goose for the minor schools and conferences.

They will make a few threats on it, just to remind those schools of why they should let the Majors do what they want to with football. Basketball wont end up being touched though because those lesser are not ran by idiots.

Saying bye bye to NCAA would be the whole point in that senario. A slimmer leaner organization created and controlled by the P5 would replace the NCAA. Think CFA with governance/enforcement powers

Yeah, to outsiders that makes sense but when it comes to putting in all the work that comes with such a monumental move? Yeah, that is asking a lot of the people in charge. I think they would rather keep the NCAA while making changes with the NCAA internally.

I could be wrong on that but that just seems how it is going. If they truly wanted to be rid of the NCAA, they already have plenty of ammunition.

(03-21-2015 11:56 AM)He1nousOne Wrote:  

(03-21-2015 11:39 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(03-21-2015 09:25 AM)He1nousOne Wrote:  Sorry, but you are wrong. The tournament staying how it is, it is the only way that the lesser schools in the NCAA don't start using their voting power to seriously hamper the Majors. If they mess with the Tournament then kiss the NCAA goodbye because that is the golden goose for the minor schools and conferences.

They will make a few threats on it, just to remind those schools of why they should let the Majors do what they want to with football. Basketball wont end up being touched though because those lesser are not ran by idiots.

Saying bye bye to NCAA would be the whole point in that senario. A slimmer leaner organization created and controlled by the P5 would replace the NCAA. Think CFA with governance/enforcement powers

Yeah, to outsiders that makes sense but when it comes to putting in all the work that comes with such a monumental move? Yeah, that is asking a lot of the people in charge. I think they would rather keep the NCAA while making changes with the NCAA internally.

I could be wrong on that but that just seems how it is going. If they truly wanted to be rid of the NCAA, they already have plenty of ammunition.

Its really not that big a deal. lol...there would be plenty of well qualified people looking for jobs over at the NCAA if such a thing occurred. You have to understand, the P5 believes that the NCAA is a bloated money sucking organization that has become a bureaucratic nightmare which is virtually impossible to reform in any meaningful way. Too many entrenched interests. They tried meaningful reform of the NCAA rulebook a few years ago with idea of streamlining it by as much as 50%. They barely were able to agree on removing a couple of pages. Its just a mess at this point.

Not saying they take making such a move lightly--but such a move is not an unacceptable outcome to the P5 if their demands are not met.

Yes, it is a big deal.

(03-21-2015 01:14 PM)He1nousOne Wrote:  Yes, it is a big deal.

To rebuild the NCAA? Yes. To build what they would prefer? Not really. The hard work is already done. The governance structure was put in place during autonomy and rewriting of the NCAA code to reflect thier vision has already begun (within the areas of autonomy). Should they ever choose to split, the autonomous governance structure and rules would form the base framework of the new organization. Frankly, I don't think they WANT to split (and doubt one is really possible before the end of the current CFP agreement). They would rather have thier cake and eat it too---but they are certainly not afraid of a split.

(03-21-2015 01:20 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(03-21-2015 01:14 PM)He1nousOne Wrote:  Yes, it is a big deal.

To rebuild the NCAA? Yes. To build what they would prefer? Not really. The hard work is already done. The governance structure was put in place during autonomy and rewriting of the NCAA code to reflect thier vision has already begun (within the areas of autonomy). Should they ever choose to split, the autonomous governance structure and rules would form the base framework of the new organization. Frankly, I don't think they WANT to split (and doubt one is really possible before the end of the current CFP agreement). They would rather have thier cake and eat it too---but they are certainly not afraid of a split.

Think bigger picture. It isn't just about what it takes to put the people in place to run it. It is about what roadblocks would be in the way of that process fully happening. The amount of favors and goodwill they would earn within certain places of power by keeping the NCAA as it is, well they are considerable. Not everyone in power comes from a Major University.

So going into the round of 32 we had 20 P5 and 12 non-P5.
We well have a minimum of 1 non-P5 team advance (X vs GA St) and a maximum of 11 non-P5 advance.
We will have a minimum of 5 P5 advance (WVU/UMD, Wisc/UO, Ark/UNC, OSU/AZ, MSU/UVA).

UCLA is in so that now makes a minimum of 6 P5 and maximum of 10 non-P5.

Call your shot on the Sweet 16 P5/non-P5 composition.

I'l go 12 P5 to 4 non-P5.

(03-21-2015 12:03 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(03-21-2015 11:56 AM)He1nousOne Wrote:  

(03-21-2015 11:39 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(03-21-2015 09:25 AM)He1nousOne Wrote:  Sorry, but you are wrong. The tournament staying how it is, it is the only way that the lesser schools in the NCAA don't start using their voting power to seriously hamper the Majors. If they mess with the Tournament then kiss the NCAA goodbye because that is the golden goose for the minor schools and conferences.

They will make a few threats on it, just to remind those schools of why they should let the Majors do what they want to with football. Basketball wont end up being touched though because those lesser are not ran by idiots.

Saying bye bye to NCAA would be the whole point in that senario. A slimmer leaner organization created and controlled by the P5 would replace the NCAA. Think CFA with governance/enforcement powers

Yeah, to outsiders that makes sense but when it comes to putting in all the work that comes with such a monumental move? Yeah, that is asking a lot of the people in charge. I think they would rather keep the NCAA while making changes with the NCAA internally.

I could be wrong on that but that just seems how it is going. If they truly wanted to be rid of the NCAA, they already have plenty of ammunition.

Its really not that big a deal. lol...there would be plenty of well qualified people looking for jobs over at the NCAA if such a thing occurred. You have to understand, the P5 believes that the NCAA is a bloated money sucking organization that has become a bureaucratic nightmare which is virtually impossible to reform in any meaningful way. Too many entrenched interests. They tried meaningful reform of the NCAA rulebook a few years ago with idea of streamlining it by as much as 50%. They barely were able to agree on removing a couple of pages. Its just a mess at this point.

Not saying they take making such a move lightly--but such a move is not an unacceptable outcome to the P5 if their demands are not met.

Noone thinks that. Everyone knows that, P5 and outside the P5. But everyone other than the P5 lose if the NCAA falls apart.

(03-20-2015 06:04 PM)10thMountain Wrote:  I imagine that what the P5 really wants is a seperate division for football but to keep the basketball format as is but with a greater share of the revenue going to the P5.

People like to root for Cinderella but forget that she is nobody without Prince Charming's ball to go to.

Of course, Prince Charming has taken over the ball and made the guess list more exclusive because there are schools outside of the club that predate the Tournament, let alone some schools in the P5.

(03-20-2015 05:39 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(03-20-2015 05:25 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  Even if you add the g5 and a few select conferences, you don't have the excitement of today's tourney.


In such a tourney, you'd end up with Georgia State getting steam-rolled by Kentucky, and UAB losing to Duke in the opening round, no Belmonts, Valpo, Northeastern, Wofford, Harvard, UC-Irvine, SF Austin, etc.



You may scoff, but a P5+ breakaway tourney will lose it's appeal quickly.

If they give half the number of autobids that are handed out now (17 instead of 34) then almost all those teams are in the tournament.

And, Duke has already lost in the opening round as a #2 seed. That was only three years ago. If the #15 seed in an alternate tournament is a stronger team (UAB, in your hypothetical), that increases the chances of a 15/2 upset.

Fans enjoy seeing David vs. Goliath games on the first weekend, but Joe Casual Fan can't find any of these schools on a map and doesn't care whether the David is UAB or Lehigh or Wichita State. Hell, Joe Casual Fan still thinks Gonzaga, Butler, and VCU are "David" teams.

I still root for those teams even when they're the favorite. Stick it to the establishment.

(03-20-2015 05:39 PM)Wedge Wrote:  And, Duke has already lost in the opening round as a #2 seed. That was only three years ago. If the #15 seed in an alternate tournament is a stronger team (UAB, in your hypothetical), that increases the chances of a 15/2 upset.

The recent expansion has already done that. Because there are now to playin games, two teams that used to be 15 seeds are now 16 seeds. And thus two teams that used to be 14 seeds are now 15 seeds, and so on, all the way up to the last at large seed (usually 11 or 12).