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C2__ Offline
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Post: #81
RE: Big East
That's why I qualified it with "it can be said..." There's no right or wrong answer.
03-23-2015 03:28 PM
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adcorbett Offline
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Post: #82
RE: Big East
(03-23-2015 03:19 PM)stever20 Wrote:  
(03-23-2015 03:15 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  It can also be said the modern era began in 1985 with the expansion of the Dance to 64 teams, roughly the same format of today.

Not really though. I think 3 of the 6 years from 79-84 had 1 seeds winning it all. So they would have been playing a 16 1st rd instead of not having a game. Different sure, but not that different.

To his point though, since the extra teams added weren't as much the low seeds, but seeds in the 8-12 range (generally the lowest at large berth's usually), it would matter. In 1985, for example, Villanova was one of the last at large teams in. They very easily could have been left out in 1982, for example. They beat two number one seeds and two number two seeds to win. That type of team could have knocked off any number of the final four teams the prior years. In 1986, LSU was an 11 seed (would not have been in) and knocked off the 1,2, and 3 seeds in their region to win it. So it could very well have changed the outcome, as we can see the first two years

1975 was the first "big" change, because it allowed in more than one team per conference. But 1979 began seeding and the further expansion. I am good with either of those dates, but I think everything changed with Magic and Bird (still the highest rated NCAA game ever) and that is probably the best starting point. But I would not argue against anyone who said 1975. However the 1985 barometer does have some validity because there have been several low seeded at large teams who would not be in the tournament prior to expansion to 64, who have either made it to the final four, or knocked off legitimate title threats, changing the outcome of who wins.
03-23-2015 03:36 PM
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stever20 Offline
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Post: #83
RE: Big East
Villanova was the 8 seed. 8 seed is never one of the last teams in. All 4 12 seeds were at large bids for gosh sakes.
03-23-2015 03:42 PM
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Post: #84
RE: Big East
(03-22-2015 12:53 AM)Burrito Wrote:  I think Georgetown, Villanova, Marquette, Xavier and Butler will carry the conference. Coach Cooley is doing good things in Providence as well. Seton Hall, SJU and Creighton are questions marks. DePaul needs to make a solid hire to replace Purnell. The Big East had a solid year with a winning record versus the 5 football conferences. Butler had a 6 game winning streak against Notre Dame before tonight's overtime loss. Assuming Xavier gets ranked, that would mean 7 different Big East teams were ranked at some point this year.

I'd always liked Georgetown... Hell, I think is the only program I like from the basketball only new big east conference.
03-23-2015 10:36 PM
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nzmorange Offline
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Post: #85
RE: Big East
(03-23-2015 10:36 PM)BigHouston Wrote:  
(03-22-2015 12:53 AM)Burrito Wrote:  I think Georgetown, Villanova, Marquette, Xavier and Butler will carry the conference. Coach Cooley is doing good things in Providence as well. Seton Hall, SJU and Creighton are questions marks. DePaul needs to make a solid hire to replace Purnell. The Big East had a solid year with a winning record versus the 5 football conferences. Butler had a 6 game winning streak against Notre Dame before tonight's overtime loss. Assuming Xavier gets ranked, that would mean 7 different Big East teams were ranked at some point this year.

I'd always liked Georgetown... Hell, I think is the only program I like from the basketball only new big east conference.

Then you, sir, have terrible taste.
03-23-2015 11:09 PM
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C2__ Offline
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Post: #86
RE: Big East
(03-23-2015 10:36 PM)BigHouston Wrote:  
(03-22-2015 12:53 AM)Burrito Wrote:  I think Georgetown, Villanova, Marquette, Xavier and Butler will carry the conference. Coach Cooley is doing good things in Providence as well. Seton Hall, SJU and Creighton are questions marks. DePaul needs to make a solid hire to replace Purnell. The Big East had a solid year with a winning record versus the 5 football conferences. Butler had a 6 game winning streak against Notre Dame before tonight's overtime loss. Assuming Xavier gets ranked, that would mean 7 different Big East teams were ranked at some point this year.

I'd always liked Georgetown... Hell, I think is the only program I like from the basketball only new big east conference.

How can you like the program that denied Phi Slama Jama glory?
03-24-2015 01:21 AM
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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Post: #87
RE: Big East
(03-23-2015 03:00 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  
(03-23-2015 10:01 AM)ken d Wrote:  
(03-22-2015 08:41 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  The conference needs to be carried by Georgetown and Villanova, the two "modern era" schools with a NC to their names.

Does Marquette's NC not count?

Generally speaking, the "modern era" of the NCAA tournament is usually defined as the Magic/Bird tournament (79) and after, which also happened to be the first to be seeded and the year it was expanded to 40 teams. So since he used that word, "modern," Marquette's would be past that. Some also use 1975 as a dividing line, due to the tourney expansion to 32 teams that year.

Yeah, I don't think it's a firm line, and I did not mean to offend the work of Marquette, who could just as well sit in that group, though it didn't win it under a Big East banner. I tend to look at it through that lens of when the field expanded with seeding ('79), but honestly, anything between '75-86 could serve as the mark, with overall expansion (which took a bite out of the NIT, so it shouldn't be dismissed), the shifting in D1, birth of certain conferences or blocs as we know them today, phasing out the third-place game, and the adoption of the three-point shot.

Perhaps, what I should have said was that this new version of the Big East should be carried by the remaining members who have won a title under the conference's name. It's one thing to have this group of schools, some with rich basketball legacies, but until someone other than G-Town and 'Nova hang up their own banner, those are the only two the "Big East" have left. There's definitely potential with those three new members, though.
03-24-2015 09:35 AM
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ken d Online
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Post: #88
RE: Big East
(03-24-2015 09:35 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  
(03-23-2015 03:00 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  
(03-23-2015 10:01 AM)ken d Wrote:  
(03-22-2015 08:41 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  The conference needs to be carried by Georgetown and Villanova, the two "modern era" schools with a NC to their names.

Does Marquette's NC not count?

Generally speaking, the "modern era" of the NCAA tournament is usually defined as the Magic/Bird tournament (79) and after, which also happened to be the first to be seeded and the year it was expanded to 40 teams. So since he used that word, "modern," Marquette's would be past that. Some also use 1975 as a dividing line, due to the tourney expansion to 32 teams that year.

Yeah, I don't think it's a firm line, and I did not mean to offend the work of Marquette, who could just as well sit in that group, though it didn't win it under a Big East banner. I tend to look at it through that lens of when the field expanded with seeding ('79), but honestly, anything between '75-86 could serve as the mark, with overall expansion (which took a bite out of the NIT, so it shouldn't be dismissed), the shifting in D1, birth of certain conferences or blocs as we know them today, phasing out the third-place game, and the adoption of the three-point shot.

Perhaps, what I should have said was that this new version of the Big East should be carried by the remaining members who have won a title under the conference's name. It's one thing to have this group of schools, some with rich basketball legacies, but until someone other than G-Town and 'Nova hang up their own banner, those are the only two the "Big East" have left. There's definitely potential with those three new members, though.

I have a hard time thinking of something as recent as 1979 defining the line between "modern" and whatever you call what came before it. I can't imagine a "modern era" of college hoops that doesn't include Lew Alcindor and David Thompson. Of course I can't imagine one without Oscar Robertson either, and I'm guessing he played for the Bearcats before many of you were born, so......

I guess I can't see how the game was all that different in the 60's and 70's than it is today. I suppose I would probably define the modern era as anything post-integration.
(This post was last modified: 03-24-2015 08:41 PM by ken d.)
03-24-2015 08:39 PM
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stever20 Offline
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Post: #89
RE: Big East
(03-24-2015 08:39 PM)ken d Wrote:  
(03-24-2015 09:35 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  
(03-23-2015 03:00 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  
(03-23-2015 10:01 AM)ken d Wrote:  
(03-22-2015 08:41 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  The conference needs to be carried by Georgetown and Villanova, the two "modern era" schools with a NC to their names.

Does Marquette's NC not count?

Generally speaking, the "modern era" of the NCAA tournament is usually defined as the Magic/Bird tournament (79) and after, which also happened to be the first to be seeded and the year it was expanded to 40 teams. So since he used that word, "modern," Marquette's would be past that. Some also use 1975 as a dividing line, due to the tourney expansion to 32 teams that year.

Yeah, I don't think it's a firm line, and I did not mean to offend the work of Marquette, who could just as well sit in that group, though it didn't win it under a Big East banner. I tend to look at it through that lens of when the field expanded with seeding ('79), but honestly, anything between '75-86 could serve as the mark, with overall expansion (which took a bite out of the NIT, so it shouldn't be dismissed), the shifting in D1, birth of certain conferences or blocs as we know them today, phasing out the third-place game, and the adoption of the three-point shot.

Perhaps, what I should have said was that this new version of the Big East should be carried by the remaining members who have won a title under the conference's name. It's one thing to have this group of schools, some with rich basketball legacies, but until someone other than G-Town and 'Nova hang up their own banner, those are the only two the "Big East" have left. There's definitely potential with those three new members, though.

I have a hard time thinking of something as recent as 1979 defining the line between "modern" and whatever you call what came before it. I can't imagine a "modern era" of college hoops that doesn't include Lew Alcindor and David Thompson. Of course I can't imagine one without Oscar Robertson either, and I'm guessing he played for the Bearcats before many of you were born, so......

I guess I can't see how the game was all that different in the 60's and 70's than it is today.

the big difference and why you can't use the UCLA era as the modern era is the fact that only conference champs made the tourney back then.
03-24-2015 08:41 PM
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TerryD Offline
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Post: #90
RE: Big East
(03-24-2015 08:41 PM)stever20 Wrote:  
(03-24-2015 08:39 PM)ken d Wrote:  
(03-24-2015 09:35 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  
(03-23-2015 03:00 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  
(03-23-2015 10:01 AM)ken d Wrote:  Does Marquette's NC not count?

Generally speaking, the "modern era" of the NCAA tournament is usually defined as the Magic/Bird tournament (79) and after, which also happened to be the first to be seeded and the year it was expanded to 40 teams. So since he used that word, "modern," Marquette's would be past that. Some also use 1975 as a dividing line, due to the tourney expansion to 32 teams that year.

Yeah, I don't think it's a firm line, and I did not mean to offend the work of Marquette, who could just as well sit in that group, though it didn't win it under a Big East banner. I tend to look at it through that lens of when the field expanded with seeding ('79), but honestly, anything between '75-86 could serve as the mark, with overall expansion (which took a bite out of the NIT, so it shouldn't be dismissed), the shifting in D1, birth of certain conferences or blocs as we know them today, phasing out the third-place game, and the adoption of the three-point shot.

Perhaps, what I should have said was that this new version of the Big East should be carried by the remaining members who have won a title under the conference's name. It's one thing to have this group of schools, some with rich basketball legacies, but until someone other than G-Town and 'Nova hang up their own banner, those are the only two the "Big East" have left. There's definitely potential with those three new members, though.

I have a hard time thinking of something as recent as 1979 defining the line between "modern" and whatever you call what came before it. I can't imagine a "modern era" of college hoops that doesn't include Lew Alcindor and David Thompson. Of course I can't imagine one without Oscar Robertson either, and I'm guessing he played for the Bearcats before many of you were born, so......

I guess I can't see how the game was all that different in the 60's and 70's than it is today.

the big difference and why you can't use the UCLA era as the modern era is the fact that only conference champs made the tourney back then.

....and independents, of which their were quite a few.
03-24-2015 08:49 PM
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BigHouston Offline
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Post: #91
RE: Big East
(03-24-2015 01:21 AM)_C2_ Wrote:  
(03-23-2015 10:36 PM)BigHouston Wrote:  
(03-22-2015 12:53 AM)Burrito Wrote:  I think Georgetown, Villanova, Marquette, Xavier and Butler will carry the conference. Coach Cooley is doing good things in Providence as well. Seton Hall, SJU and Creighton are questions marks. DePaul needs to make a solid hire to replace Purnell. The Big East had a solid year with a winning record versus the 5 football conferences. Butler had a 6 game winning streak against Notre Dame before tonight's overtime loss. Assuming Xavier gets ranked, that would mean 7 different Big East teams were ranked at some point this year.

I'd always liked Georgetown... Hell, I think is the only program I like from the basketball only new big east conference.

How can you like the program that denied Phi Slama Jama glory?

Good going C2... Why bring the past!?! Now I have no choice but rethink my kindness.
03-24-2015 09:20 PM
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C2__ Offline
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Post: #92
RE: Big East
Could have been worse, you could like NC State. 03-puke And because I'm such a stickler for the underdogs, I'm rooting for them coming up this week.
03-24-2015 09:52 PM
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