Hello There, Guest! (LoginRegister)

Post Reply 
Israeli Election Tomorrow (3/16)
Author Message
EagleRockCafe Offline
Hall of Famer
*

Posts: 13,221
Joined: Nov 2003
Reputation: 430
I Root For: Eagles
Location:
Post: #81
RE: Israeli Election Tomorrow (3/16)
Dixie was raised in a Muslim country I believe. His anti Israel feelings are known.
03-19-2015 10:13 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Crebman Offline
Heisman
*

Posts: 9,407
Joined: Apr 2007
Reputation: 552
I Root For:
Location:
Post: #82
RE: Israeli Election Tomorrow (3/16)
(03-19-2015 10:13 AM)EagleRockCafe Wrote:  Dixie was raised in a Muslim country I believe. His anti Israel feelings are known.

Well, I wasn't - and I think it's a crock of sh!t that our slimy Washington politicians have injected themselves into another sovereign country's election. A democratic country that is an ally no less. A f_cking pox on all of them.

And you can go and look at my posting history and you won't find any Muslim sympathies from me.
(This post was last modified: 03-19-2015 10:20 AM by Crebman.)
03-19-2015 10:18 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
I45owl Offline
Hall of Famer
*

Posts: 18,374
Joined: Jun 2005
Reputation: 184
I Root For: Rice Owls
Location: Dallas, TX

New Orleans Bowl
Post: #83
RE: Israeli Election Tomorrow (3/16)
(03-19-2015 08:03 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  Oh, don't get me wrong, it is. I think the media made a huge deal out of this. And I am; I'm talking entirely about our interest and involvement in their political process.

I'm uncomfortable with us inserting ourselves in the politics of other countries. I think it is ****** on both sides too. It was wrong for Obama to work with opponents of a sitting Prime Minister as it was wrong to let their man use our Congress as a political stunt. I don't like mixing our politics. I don't think it's good.

A lot of the celebrating is coming from the right because suddenly it is being presented as a snub to Obama, merely because the result happened to pan out. But, I'd be saying the same thing had Bibi lost and Obama and the left been dancing on his political grave.

Israeli politics shouldn't be a tool in our political fight and vice-versa. We should be willing to work with whomever they choose, free of our influence, left or right.

The Iran problem is something where there does need to be a level of separation between us and Israel. We can say the same thing, which we do and we agree on it, but we shouldnt be acting like we formulate that plan together. We have separate interests.

I agree with almost everything (sans the last paragraph...at least partially). With that said, I've followed Israeli politics to some degree for over 30 years, but probably never to this degree. When Ehud Ohlmert gained the prime ministry (ministership?), I became a lot more concerned about Israeli internal politics because of just how bad he was.

With that said, I view this as a Pyrrhic victory. Netanyahu's comments about Palestinian statehood were foolish and an absolute game-changer with regards to international relations, and I think his victory will be very harmful to Israel and the administrations actions will once again lead to a very bloody war before Obama's term is out (for the third time).
03-19-2015 02:10 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Owl 69/70/75 Offline
Just an old rugby coach
*

Posts: 80,655
Joined: Sep 2005
Reputation: 3192
I Root For: RiceBathChelsea
Location: Montgomery, TX

DonatorsNew Orleans Bowl
Post: #84
RE: Israeli Election Tomorrow (3/16)
(03-19-2015 08:03 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  The Iran problem is something where there does need to be a level of separation between us and Israel. We can say the same thing, which we do and we agree on it, but we shouldnt be acting like we formulate that plan together. We have separate interests.

The Iran problem that we need to worry about is not Iran v. Israel, it's Iran v. the Arab nations. Iran will never nuke Israel. Even if Iran gets nukes, it won't have an arsenal capable of trading shots with Israel for decades, if ever. Where Iran's nukes would become a problem is that they would greatly alter the balance of power between Iran and other Arab nations. If we get much closer to Iran, we are going to start seeing some frostiness from the Arabs. Those Arabs would love for Israel to take out Iran's nukes, that would remove an existential threat to them. And I think Bibi would love to take them out, for any number of reasons. If we pulled out of the region, I'm quite certain that Israel would strike Iran very shortly thereafter.

What I heard this morning is that details have leaked of a proposed agreement where Iran would reduce its number of centrifuges from 10,000 to 6,000 in exchange for immediate lifting of all trade sanctions. If that's anywhere close to the actual structure of the deal that is on the table, that is absolutely frigging nuts. It sure as hell comes nowhere close to the best hope of preventing Iran from getting a nuke. Describing such a deal as our best hope for anything is simply a lie of monumental proportions.
03-19-2015 02:33 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
I45owl Offline
Hall of Famer
*

Posts: 18,374
Joined: Jun 2005
Reputation: 184
I Root For: Rice Owls
Location: Dallas, TX

New Orleans Bowl
Post: #85
RE: Israeli Election Tomorrow (3/16)
(03-19-2015 02:33 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  What I heard this morning is that details have leaked of a proposed agreement where Iran would reduce its number of centrifuges from 10,000 to 6,000 in exchange for immediate lifting of all trade sanctions. If that's anywhere close to the actual structure of the deal that is on the table, that is absolutely frigging nuts. It sure as hell comes nowhere close to the best hope of preventing Iran from getting a nuke. Describing such a deal as our best hope for anything is simply a lie of monumental proportions.

Fortunately, we have just the team in place to pull that off.

This deal is the foreign relations equivalent of "F it, dude. Whatever"
03-19-2015 03:04 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
NIU007 Online
Legend
*

Posts: 34,241
Joined: Sep 2004
Reputation: 315
I Root For: NIU, MAC
Location: Naperville, IL
Post: #86
RE: Israeli Election Tomorrow (3/16)
(03-19-2015 02:10 PM)I45owl Wrote:  
(03-19-2015 08:03 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  Oh, don't get me wrong, it is. I think the media made a huge deal out of this. And I am; I'm talking entirely about our interest and involvement in their political process.

I'm uncomfortable with us inserting ourselves in the politics of other countries. I think it is ****** on both sides too. It was wrong for Obama to work with opponents of a sitting Prime Minister as it was wrong to let their man use our Congress as a political stunt. I don't like mixing our politics. I don't think it's good.

A lot of the celebrating is coming from the right because suddenly it is being presented as a snub to Obama, merely because the result happened to pan out. But, I'd be saying the same thing had Bibi lost and Obama and the left been dancing on his political grave.

Israeli politics shouldn't be a tool in our political fight and vice-versa. We should be willing to work with whomever they choose, free of our influence, left or right.

The Iran problem is something where there does need to be a level of separation between us and Israel. We can say the same thing, which we do and we agree on it, but we shouldnt be acting like we formulate that plan together. We have separate interests.

I agree with almost everything (sans the last paragraph...at least partially). With that said, I've followed Israeli politics to some degree for over 30 years, but probably never to this degree. When Ehud Ohlmert gained the prime ministry (ministership?), I became a lot more concerned about Israeli internal politics because of just how bad he was.

With that said, I view this as a Pyrrhic victory. Netanyahu's comments about Palestinian statehood were foolish and an absolute game-changer with regards to international relations, and I think his victory will be very harmful to Israel and the administrations actions will once again lead to a very bloody war before Obama's term is out (for the third time).

If there's a war it will be due to Israel's actions, not the US's. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Bibi's re-election leads to increased violence by the Palestinians against Israel, if they're capable of it at this time.

And so far, Obama hasn't gotten us into any wars we didn't need to be in, unlike his Repub predecessor.
03-19-2015 03:17 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
ECUGrad07 Online
Hall of Famer
*

Posts: 12,200
Joined: Feb 2011
Reputation: 1261
I Root For: ECU
Location: Lafayette, LA
Post: #87
RE: Israeli Election Tomorrow (3/16)
(03-19-2015 03:17 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  
(03-19-2015 02:10 PM)I45owl Wrote:  
(03-19-2015 08:03 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  Oh, don't get me wrong, it is. I think the media made a huge deal out of this. And I am; I'm talking entirely about our interest and involvement in their political process.

I'm uncomfortable with us inserting ourselves in the politics of other countries. I think it is ****** on both sides too. It was wrong for Obama to work with opponents of a sitting Prime Minister as it was wrong to let their man use our Congress as a political stunt. I don't like mixing our politics. I don't think it's good.

A lot of the celebrating is coming from the right because suddenly it is being presented as a snub to Obama, merely because the result happened to pan out. But, I'd be saying the same thing had Bibi lost and Obama and the left been dancing on his political grave.

Israeli politics shouldn't be a tool in our political fight and vice-versa. We should be willing to work with whomever they choose, free of our influence, left or right.

The Iran problem is something where there does need to be a level of separation between us and Israel. We can say the same thing, which we do and we agree on it, but we shouldnt be acting like we formulate that plan together. We have separate interests.

I agree with almost everything (sans the last paragraph...at least partially). With that said, I've followed Israeli politics to some degree for over 30 years, but probably never to this degree. When Ehud Ohlmert gained the prime ministry (ministership?), I became a lot more concerned about Israeli internal politics because of just how bad he was.

With that said, I view this as a Pyrrhic victory. Netanyahu's comments about Palestinian statehood were foolish and an absolute game-changer with regards to international relations, and I think his victory will be very harmful to Israel and the administrations actions will once again lead to a very bloody war before Obama's term is out (for the third time).

If there's a war it will be due to Israel's actions, not the US's. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Bibi's re-election leads to increased violence by the Palestinians against Israel, if they're capable of it at this time.

And so far, Obama hasn't gotten us into any wars we didn't need to be in, unlike his Repub predecessor.

03-lmfao

Not once, but TWICE you passed the buck. 03-lmfao I swear to God, Obama can do nothing wrong.
03-19-2015 03:21 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
NIU007 Online
Legend
*

Posts: 34,241
Joined: Sep 2004
Reputation: 315
I Root For: NIU, MAC
Location: Naperville, IL
Post: #88
RE: Israeli Election Tomorrow (3/16)
(03-19-2015 03:21 PM)ECUGrad07 Wrote:  
(03-19-2015 03:17 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  
(03-19-2015 02:10 PM)I45owl Wrote:  
(03-19-2015 08:03 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  Oh, don't get me wrong, it is. I think the media made a huge deal out of this. And I am; I'm talking entirely about our interest and involvement in their political process.

I'm uncomfortable with us inserting ourselves in the politics of other countries. I think it is ****** on both sides too. It was wrong for Obama to work with opponents of a sitting Prime Minister as it was wrong to let their man use our Congress as a political stunt. I don't like mixing our politics. I don't think it's good.

A lot of the celebrating is coming from the right because suddenly it is being presented as a snub to Obama, merely because the result happened to pan out. But, I'd be saying the same thing had Bibi lost and Obama and the left been dancing on his political grave.

Israeli politics shouldn't be a tool in our political fight and vice-versa. We should be willing to work with whomever they choose, free of our influence, left or right.

The Iran problem is something where there does need to be a level of separation between us and Israel. We can say the same thing, which we do and we agree on it, but we shouldnt be acting like we formulate that plan together. We have separate interests.

I agree with almost everything (sans the last paragraph...at least partially). With that said, I've followed Israeli politics to some degree for over 30 years, but probably never to this degree. When Ehud Ohlmert gained the prime ministry (ministership?), I became a lot more concerned about Israeli internal politics because of just how bad he was.

With that said, I view this as a Pyrrhic victory. Netanyahu's comments about Palestinian statehood were foolish and an absolute game-changer with regards to international relations, and I think his victory will be very harmful to Israel and the administrations actions will once again lead to a very bloody war before Obama's term is out (for the third time).

If there's a war it will be due to Israel's actions, not the US's. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Bibi's re-election leads to increased violence by the Palestinians against Israel, if they're capable of it at this time.

And so far, Obama hasn't gotten us into any wars we didn't need to be in, unlike his Repub predecessor.

03-lmfao

Not once, but TWICE you passed the buck. 03-lmfao I swear to God, Obama can do nothing wrong.

How exactly is Obama going to start a war in the Middle East? Explain.
03-19-2015 03:26 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
QuestionSocratic Offline
Banned

Posts: 8,276
Joined: Jul 2013
I Root For: Buffalo
Location:
Post: #89
RE: Israeli Election Tomorrow (3/16)
(03-19-2015 03:17 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  
(03-19-2015 02:10 PM)I45owl Wrote:  
(03-19-2015 08:03 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  Oh, don't get me wrong, it is. I think the media made a huge deal out of this. And I am; I'm talking entirely about our interest and involvement in their political process.

I'm uncomfortable with us inserting ourselves in the politics of other countries. I think it is ****** on both sides too. It was wrong for Obama to work with opponents of a sitting Prime Minister as it was wrong to let their man use our Congress as a political stunt. I don't like mixing our politics. I don't think it's good.

A lot of the celebrating is coming from the right because suddenly it is being presented as a snub to Obama, merely because the result happened to pan out. But, I'd be saying the same thing had Bibi lost and Obama and the left been dancing on his political grave.

Israeli politics shouldn't be a tool in our political fight and vice-versa. We should be willing to work with whomever they choose, free of our influence, left or right.

The Iran problem is something where there does need to be a level of separation between us and Israel. We can say the same thing, which we do and we agree on it, but we shouldnt be acting like we formulate that plan together. We have separate interests.

I agree with almost everything (sans the last paragraph...at least partially). With that said, I've followed Israeli politics to some degree for over 30 years, but probably never to this degree. When Ehud Ohlmert gained the prime ministry (ministership?), I became a lot more concerned about Israeli internal politics because of just how bad he was.

With that said, I view this as a Pyrrhic victory. Netanyahu's comments about Palestinian statehood were foolish and an absolute game-changer with regards to international relations, and I think his victory will be very harmful to Israel and the administrations actions will once again lead to a very bloody war before Obama's term is out (for the third time).

If there's a war it will be due to Israel's actions, not the US's. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Bibi's re-election leads to increased violence by the Palestinians against Israel, if they're capable of it at this time.

And so far, Obama hasn't gotten us into any wars we didn't need to be in, unlike his Repub predecessor.

And the world is just a much safer place. Yep,got it.
03-19-2015 04:11 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
NIU007 Online
Legend
*

Posts: 34,241
Joined: Sep 2004
Reputation: 315
I Root For: NIU, MAC
Location: Naperville, IL
Post: #90
RE: Israeli Election Tomorrow (3/16)
(03-19-2015 04:11 PM)QuestionSocratic Wrote:  
(03-19-2015 03:17 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  
(03-19-2015 02:10 PM)I45owl Wrote:  
(03-19-2015 08:03 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  Oh, don't get me wrong, it is. I think the media made a huge deal out of this. And I am; I'm talking entirely about our interest and involvement in their political process.

I'm uncomfortable with us inserting ourselves in the politics of other countries. I think it is ****** on both sides too. It was wrong for Obama to work with opponents of a sitting Prime Minister as it was wrong to let their man use our Congress as a political stunt. I don't like mixing our politics. I don't think it's good.

A lot of the celebrating is coming from the right because suddenly it is being presented as a snub to Obama, merely because the result happened to pan out. But, I'd be saying the same thing had Bibi lost and Obama and the left been dancing on his political grave.

Israeli politics shouldn't be a tool in our political fight and vice-versa. We should be willing to work with whomever they choose, free of our influence, left or right.

The Iran problem is something where there does need to be a level of separation between us and Israel. We can say the same thing, which we do and we agree on it, but we shouldnt be acting like we formulate that plan together. We have separate interests.

I agree with almost everything (sans the last paragraph...at least partially). With that said, I've followed Israeli politics to some degree for over 30 years, but probably never to this degree. When Ehud Ohlmert gained the prime ministry (ministership?), I became a lot more concerned about Israeli internal politics because of just how bad he was.

With that said, I view this as a Pyrrhic victory. Netanyahu's comments about Palestinian statehood were foolish and an absolute game-changer with regards to international relations, and I think his victory will be very harmful to Israel and the administrations actions will once again lead to a very bloody war before Obama's term is out (for the third time).

If there's a war it will be due to Israel's actions, not the US's. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Bibi's re-election leads to increased violence by the Palestinians against Israel, if they're capable of it at this time.

And so far, Obama hasn't gotten us into any wars we didn't need to be in, unlike his Repub predecessor.

And the world is just a much safer place. Yep,got it.

That's a completely different issue than Obama starting a war.
03-19-2015 04:21 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
HeartOfDixie Offline
Hall of Famer
*

Posts: 24,689
Joined: Oct 2013
Reputation: 945
I Root For: Alabama
Location: Huntsville AL
Post: #91
RE: Israeli Election Tomorrow (3/16)
(03-19-2015 02:33 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(03-19-2015 08:03 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  The Iran problem is something where there does need to be a level of separation between us and Israel. We can say the same thing, which we do and we agree on it, but we shouldnt be acting like we formulate that plan together. We have separate interests.

The Iran problem that we need to worry about is not Iran v. Israel, it's Iran v. the Arab nations. Iran will never nuke Israel. Even if Iran gets nukes, it won't have an arsenal capable of trading shots with Israel for decades, if ever. Where Iran's nukes would become a problem is that they would greatly alter the balance of power between Iran and other Arab nations. If we get much closer to Iran, we are going to start seeing some frostiness from the Arabs. Those Arabs would love for Israel to take out Iran's nukes, that would remove an existential threat to them. And I think Bibi would love to take them out, for any number of reasons. If we pulled out of the region, I'm quite certain that Israel would strike Iran very shortly thereafter.

What I heard this morning is that details have leaked of a proposed agreement where Iran would reduce its number of centrifuges from 10,000 to 6,000 in exchange for immediate lifting of all trade sanctions. If that's anywhere close to the actual structure of the deal that is on the table, that is absolutely frigging nuts. It sure as hell comes nowhere close to the best hope of preventing Iran from getting a nuke. Describing such a deal as our best hope for anything is simply a lie of monumental proportions.

For what it is worth, and very little at that because I am just screen name on the internet, my friends in Kurdistan have said that the Obama Administration and Iran already had a deal and what is going on now is really the fallout from that, on both sides. The Republicans losing their mind here and the extremists in Iran wanting to push as well.

I don't think that this is our best hope. I think that was another poster who used that term.

I am form patching up relations with Iran and opening up relations with them. The Iranians, even under the religious government, are not our natural enemies.

I agree in part with what you said about the Arabs and their place in all of this. The Iranian government has pursued an identical foreign policy to the Shaw. Their goal is influence. Their goal is to be at the table with us, the Russians, the Chinese, and Europeans. The nuclear weapon is their way of forcing themselves onto that stage. However, that is also why I think the Arab reaction won't be as extreme. They don't have those ambitions.

As I have said before, I firmly believe a nuclear Iran is inevitable. That's why I largely support the Obama administration here because I believe my friends that the overall goal is to open up relations. That's a good thing for us in the long run for every reason under the sun.

I think in large part a lot of the reaction to this is a fear on the part of the Israelis, who wield considerable influence in our system. They don't like it, of course not. However, I am not interested in what is good for Israel over what is good for the United States.

I think that the slight separation between the US and Israel is good. Our policy in the region has really been subordinate to theirs for too long. The Obama administration putting some distance between us will let us push our agenda better in the region, with the Iranians and the Arabs, who contrary to popular opinion are not our natural enemies either. Hell, that is part of what makes us popular overall around the world, we have no natural enemies.

Our uncompromising and absolute support of Israel has harmed peace in the region. It is made it impossible to deal with anybody else on fair terms. I'm happy to see us move away from Israel to a very slight degree, only what is necessary for the Iranians and Arabs to see that Israel and us are not one in the same. As I said, that is good for us and good for Americans in every conceivable way.
03-19-2015 05:19 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Owl 69/70/75 Offline
Just an old rugby coach
*

Posts: 80,655
Joined: Sep 2005
Reputation: 3192
I Root For: RiceBathChelsea
Location: Montgomery, TX

DonatorsNew Orleans Bowl
Post: #92
RE: Israeli Election Tomorrow (3/16)
(03-19-2015 05:19 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  Our uncompromising and absolute support of Israel has harmed peace in the region.

I believe you have spent time in the region. So have I.

We disagree here. Our screwups in the region aren't related to Israel. Our screwups are our own failure to comprehend the Arab or Muslim mind, and our attempts to deal with them as if they were Westerners and thought like Westerners. We have endangered peace in the region by being idiots. Israel is an exceedingly minor, if at all, part of the problem. Israel's situation gets an inordinate amount of press in the west, primarily IMO because it's the one that western journalists think they understand (they don't, nary a clue for the most part).
03-19-2015 05:53 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
HeartOfDixie Offline
Hall of Famer
*

Posts: 24,689
Joined: Oct 2013
Reputation: 945
I Root For: Alabama
Location: Huntsville AL
Post: #93
RE: Israeli Election Tomorrow (3/16)
(03-19-2015 05:53 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(03-19-2015 05:19 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  Our uncompromising and absolute support of Israel has harmed peace in the region.

I believe you have spent time in the region. So have I.

We disagree here. Our screwups in the region aren't related to Israel. Our screwups are our own failure to comprehend the Arab or Muslim mind, and our attempts to deal with them as if they were Westerners and thought like Westerners. We have endangered peace in the region by being idiots. Israel is an exceedingly minor, if at all, part of the problem. Israel's situation gets an inordinate amount of press in the west, primarily IMO because it's the one that western journalists think they understand (they don't, nary a clue for the most part).

I agree with that in part but it largely depends on the region. In North Africa, we are stupid. In the Middle East we are stupid and we offer blind support to a group utterly opposed to them.

It is the blind support that is a problem for them. I also think it is quite serious. A perfect example is our support of the Israelis bombing Tunisia. They will never fully trust us over that.

What I really meant with that line however was that our blind support for them has led them to think they can get away with more than they really can because they know we will always follow whatever they say. They have no incentive to find a solution, because we are always there. That's really what I meant by that. They meaning the Israelis.
(This post was last modified: 03-19-2015 06:06 PM by HeartOfDixie.)
03-19-2015 06:04 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Owl 69/70/75 Offline
Just an old rugby coach
*

Posts: 80,655
Joined: Sep 2005
Reputation: 3192
I Root For: RiceBathChelsea
Location: Montgomery, TX

DonatorsNew Orleans Bowl
Post: #94
RE: Israeli Election Tomorrow (3/16)
In my military/intel role I got to interact with people pretty high in the chain. My distinct impression was that the vast majority of Arabs, particularly among fairly senior government and military personnel, hated or feared Iran far more than they hated Israel.

Our biggest problem IMO is that we have pursued a consistent policy of antagonizing moderate Muslims at every fork in the road. I think we have created so much ill will that our best step would be to get the hell out of the region and go back to square 1. But entering into any agreement with Iran commits us to stay.
03-19-2015 06:48 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
NIU007 Online
Legend
*

Posts: 34,241
Joined: Sep 2004
Reputation: 315
I Root For: NIU, MAC
Location: Naperville, IL
Post: #95
RE: Israeli Election Tomorrow (3/16)
(03-19-2015 05:19 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  
(03-19-2015 02:33 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(03-19-2015 08:03 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  The Iran problem is something where there does need to be a level of separation between us and Israel. We can say the same thing, which we do and we agree on it, but we shouldnt be acting like we formulate that plan together. We have separate interests.

The Iran problem that we need to worry about is not Iran v. Israel, it's Iran v. the Arab nations. Iran will never nuke Israel. Even if Iran gets nukes, it won't have an arsenal capable of trading shots with Israel for decades, if ever. Where Iran's nukes would become a problem is that they would greatly alter the balance of power between Iran and other Arab nations. If we get much closer to Iran, we are going to start seeing some frostiness from the Arabs. Those Arabs would love for Israel to take out Iran's nukes, that would remove an existential threat to them. And I think Bibi would love to take them out, for any number of reasons. If we pulled out of the region, I'm quite certain that Israel would strike Iran very shortly thereafter.

What I heard this morning is that details have leaked of a proposed agreement where Iran would reduce its number of centrifuges from 10,000 to 6,000 in exchange for immediate lifting of all trade sanctions. If that's anywhere close to the actual structure of the deal that is on the table, that is absolutely frigging nuts. It sure as hell comes nowhere close to the best hope of preventing Iran from getting a nuke. Describing such a deal as our best hope for anything is simply a lie of monumental proportions.

For what it is worth, and very little at that because I am just screen name on the internet, my friends in Kurdistan have said that the Obama Administration and Iran already had a deal and what is going on now is really the fallout from that, on both sides. The Republicans losing their mind here and the extremists in Iran wanting to push as well.

I don't think that this is our best hope. I think that was another poster who used that term.

I am form patching up relations with Iran and opening up relations with them. The Iranians, even under the religious government, are not our natural enemies.

I agree in part with what you said about the Arabs and their place in all of this. The Iranian government has pursued an identical foreign policy to the Shaw. Their goal is influence. Their goal is to be at the table with us, the Russians, the Chinese, and Europeans. The nuclear weapon is their way of forcing themselves onto that stage. However, that is also why I think the Arab reaction won't be as extreme. They don't have those ambitions.

As I have said before, I firmly believe a nuclear Iran is inevitable. That's why I largely support the Obama administration here because I believe my friends that the overall goal is to open up relations. That's a good thing for us in the long run for every reason under the sun.

I think in large part a lot of the reaction to this is a fear on the part of the Israelis, who wield considerable influence in our system. They don't like it, of course not. However, I am not interested in what is good for Israel over what is good for the United States.

I think that the slight separation between the US and Israel is good. Our policy in the region has really been subordinate to theirs for too long. The Obama administration putting some distance between us will let us push our agenda better in the region, with the Iranians and the Arabs, who contrary to popular opinion are not our natural enemies either. Hell, that is part of what makes us popular overall around the world, we have no natural enemies.

Our uncompromising and absolute support of Israel has harmed peace in the region. It is made it impossible to deal with anybody else on fair terms. I'm happy to see us move away from Israel to a very slight degree, only what is necessary for the Iranians and Arabs to see that Israel and us are not one in the same. As I said, that is good for us and good for Americans in every conceivable way.

I don't have your experience with the region but this is exactly how I read it as well.
03-19-2015 08:21 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
HeartOfDixie Offline
Hall of Famer
*

Posts: 24,689
Joined: Oct 2013
Reputation: 945
I Root For: Alabama
Location: Huntsville AL
Post: #96
RE: Israeli Election Tomorrow (3/16)
(03-19-2015 06:48 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  In my military/intel role I got to interact with people pretty high in the chain. My distinct impression was that the vast majority of Arabs, particularly among fairly senior government and military personnel, hated or feared Iran far more than they hated Israel.

Our biggest problem IMO is that we have pursued a consistent policy of antagonizing moderate Muslims at every fork in the road. I think we have created so much ill will that our best step would be to get the hell out of the region and go back to square 1. But entering into any agreement with Iran commits us to stay.

Well, I think we will both agree that there are always two sides to the equation, the people and the government.

In the Arab world the two are never aligned.

Granted, it is the government that runs the show.

The man on the street is not concerned about Iran. He is concerned about Israel to a limited extent. What he really cares about is the United States. That is of course after the struggles of day to day life which are considerable in the Arab world.
03-19-2015 08:59 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Owl 69/70/75 Offline
Just an old rugby coach
*

Posts: 80,655
Joined: Sep 2005
Reputation: 3192
I Root For: RiceBathChelsea
Location: Montgomery, TX

DonatorsNew Orleans Bowl
Post: #97
RE: Israeli Election Tomorrow (3/16)
(03-19-2015 08:59 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  Well, I think we will both agree that there are always two sides to the equation, the people and the government.
In the Arab world the two are never aligned.
Granted, it is the government that runs the show.
The man on the street is not concerned about Iran. He is concerned about Israel to a limited extent. What he really cares about is the United States. That is of course after the struggles of day to day life which are considerable in the Arab world.

Definitely agree about the man in the street versus the government. That makes for a potentially awkward situation should Israel go after Iran.

As far as the man on the street, what we have done to piss him off is tell his wife to take off her veil. Our meddling and micromanaging is why they hate us, not anything that Bush or Obama has ever expressed as being the reason.

I think the bottom line to an agreement that lifts sanctions in exchange for a reduction to 6,000 centrifuges is twofold
1. Iran is going to get its nukes, sooner rather than later
2. We have cast our fate firmly with Iran, over both Israel and the Arabs

I agree with you that there's not much we can do about 1. I hope 2 isn't a mistake.

I am not as inclined as you are to believe that the Arabs will accept it. I think they will get their noses mightily bent out of shape. I can see Russia and/or China stepping into the breach. Russia maybe can't afford it. China can. Russia and China are exploring a BRIC resource based currency to replace the dollar as the world standard. If they could get OPEC to come over, they could pull it off. That would pretty well cook our goose.
(This post was last modified: 03-19-2015 09:23 PM by Owl 69/70/75.)
03-19-2015 09:17 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
HeartOfDixie Offline
Hall of Famer
*

Posts: 24,689
Joined: Oct 2013
Reputation: 945
I Root For: Alabama
Location: Huntsville AL
Post: #98
RE: Israeli Election Tomorrow (3/16)
(03-19-2015 09:17 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(03-19-2015 08:59 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  Well, I think we will both agree that there are always two sides to the equation, the people and the government.
In the Arab world the two are never aligned.
Granted, it is the government that runs the show.
The man on the street is not concerned about Iran. He is concerned about Israel to a limited extent. What he really cares about is the United States. That is of course after the struggles of day to day life which are considerable in the Arab world.

Definitely agree about the man in the street versus the government. That makes for a potentially awkward situation should Israel go after Iran.

I think the bottom line to an agreement that lifts sanctions in exchange for a reduction to 6,000 centrifuges is twofold
1. Iran is going to get its nukes, sooner rather than later
2. We have cast our fate firmly with Iran, over both Israel and the Arabs

I agree with you that there's not much we can do about 1. I hope 2 isn't a mistake.

I am not as inclined as you are to believe that the Arabs will accept it. I think they will get their noses mightily bent out of shape. I can see Russia and/or China stepping into the breach. Russia maybe can't afford it. China can. Russia and China are exploring a BRIC resource based currency to replace the dollar as the world standard. If they could get OPEC to come over, they could pull it off. That would pretty well cook our goose.

The scenario you mentioned is particularly troubling.

However, we need allies outside of Europe and as insane is may sound now, the Iranians are not our natural enemies. They are natural enemies of the Russians however. It is part of the advantage of being a young country.

Speaking 100% in the theoretical, a close relationship with Iran could prove to solve many of our problems in the Middle East. Our foreign policy has only ever really been successful when we support a strong nation or individual. The Iranians could be that for us. That is a bit out there and I know that.

Our real enemy are the power brokers on the Arabian peninsula who continue to force us into untenable situations, policy wise especially. That is part of the reason I say our close ties with Israel are a problem in several ways. Being between the Arabs and the Israelis is about the worst position we can find ourselves in.
(This post was last modified: 03-19-2015 09:26 PM by HeartOfDixie.)
03-19-2015 09:24 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Owl 69/70/75 Offline
Just an old rugby coach
*

Posts: 80,655
Joined: Sep 2005
Reputation: 3192
I Root For: RiceBathChelsea
Location: Montgomery, TX

DonatorsNew Orleans Bowl
Post: #99
RE: Israeli Election Tomorrow (3/16)
(03-19-2015 09:24 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  The scenario you mentioned is particularly troubling.

I agree.

If we execute the agreement that has been leaked, I think it is the most likely outcome. And the stupid republicans keep arguing about Israel. They don't have a clue where the real problem lies.

Funny thing, the entire time that I had my fingers in Mideast intel, there was this running discussion among the intel community about whom should we back--Israel, or the Arabs, or Iran. I think we just bought a ticket on the wrong horse.

Being between Israel and the Arabs isn't that hard to manage. We managed it pretty well, with friends on both sides, until we started trying to micromanage and westernize the Arabs' culture. That's what we absolutely have to stop.

My brother and I will fight my cousin. My cousin and I will fight the world. Ishmael and Isaac were brothers. Think through the implications.
(This post was last modified: 03-19-2015 09:54 PM by Owl 69/70/75.)
03-19-2015 09:35 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Brokeback Flamer Offline
1st String
*

Posts: 1,690
Joined: May 2012
Reputation: 49
I Root For: Tight ends
Location:
Post: #100
RE: Israeli Election Tomorrow (3/16)
(03-19-2015 05:53 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(03-19-2015 05:19 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  Our uncompromising and absolute support of Israel has harmed peace in the region.

I believe you have spent time in the region. So have I.

We disagree here. Our screwups in the region aren't related to Israel. Our screwups are our own failure to comprehend the Arab or Muslim mind, and our attempts to deal with them as if they were Westerners and thought like Westerners. We have endangered peace in the region by being idiots. Israel is an exceedingly minor, if at all, part of the problem. Israel's situation gets an inordinate amount of press in the west, primarily IMO because it's the one that western journalists think they understand (they don't, nary a clue for the most part).

Israel has never had uncompromising and absolute support from the U.S. We are their biggest supporters but there have been significant factions in US circles that feel if Israel would just go away the World would be a much happier place. Israel. gets a lot of press in America because we have never Pogromed Jews nor tried to annihilate the entire race. It also IS the most Western of Countries in the Near East let a lone the rest of the region.
I do agree that the majority of the U.S. press doesn't 'get it' but that could be said about just any countries media commenting on another.
03-19-2015 10:06 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply 




User(s) browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)


Copyright © 2002-2024 Collegiate Sports Nation Bulletin Board System (CSNbbs), All Rights Reserved.
CSNbbs is an independent fan site and is in no way affiliated to the NCAA or any of the schools and conferences it represents.
This site monetizes links. FTC Disclosure.
We allow third-party companies to serve ads and/or collect certain anonymous information when you visit our web site. These companies may use non-personally identifiable information (e.g., click stream information, browser type, time and date, subject of advertisements clicked or scrolled over) during your visits to this and other Web sites in order to provide advertisements about goods and services likely to be of greater interest to you. These companies typically use a cookie or third party web beacon to collect this information. To learn more about this behavioral advertising practice or to opt-out of this type of advertising, you can visit http://www.networkadvertising.org.
Powered By MyBB, © 2002-2024 MyBB Group.