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Fox not getting what they hoped for
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wavefan12 Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Fox not getting what they hoped for
(03-10-2015 10:20 AM)HP-TBDPITL Wrote:  Is FOX happy with the product?

I guess...but that product is pretty much reproduced with even the American...heck UConn and Memphis are NOT tourney teams (unless one makes a run) and they command good TV numbers for their regular season games.

Having a bunch of tourney teams doesn't necessarily make it a better product for advertisers.

Fox was idiotic to pay that much for a basketball product...only. The Big East's TV value is inflated by Fox right now...it unsustainable. If the American can do better with its football product in the next few years (and Navy coming in should really help), in reality the next TV package should blow the Big East away.

I agree. What worries me is that the landscape is changing so fast and by the time we can renegotiate the terms, the P5 schools will have an extra $80mm in the bank vs the AAC, further separating the conference.
03-10-2015 10:33 AM
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KnightLight Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Fox not getting what they hoped for
(03-10-2015 10:31 AM)Bull Wrote:  
(03-10-2015 09:52 AM)shere khan Wrote:  Quo in 3, 2, 1

He speaks for the Big East!


Seriously though... many of you guys are probably not old enough to remember the launch of Fox news. I was pretty young myself, but at the time CNN absolutely dominated and ruled cable news. Heck, they invented the 24 hour news channel. When Fox lanuched it's news network, it was (IIRC) derided and given no chance... and now it's number 1. (Lets not get into politics here... I'm strictly talking about marketplace success and a business model)

Point is, FOX sports COULD succeed even under the umbrella of ESPN. They just need to be smart, build up their brand, and keep trying. Their big payout for the BE was probably an attempted step along this path. Maybe it's not a perfect analogy, but I would not sell Fox sports short just yet. How many of us have been demanding some alternative to ESPiN?

Good point.

FOX Sports needed LIVE Programming desperately, especially in the Winter Months....and of the few properties up for bid near their launch was Big East Basketball.

Odds are, FOX Sports (and even NBC and CBS Sports) will probably grow some in the coming years...as the hunger for live sports (on varies devices, not just TV), will continue to grow.

Sports Networks will grow...even if FOX SPORTS doesn't dethrone ESPN as per analogy above.

NOTE: FOX took over CNN because of daily personality shows on FOX...but where CNN shines is live world events (tragedies, plan crashes, murders, etc...), as they generally draw in larger TV ratings for those live events than FOX...but those events don't happen on a daily, weekly or even monthly basis...as some of CNN regular shows have faltered.
(This post was last modified: 03-10-2015 10:39 AM by KnightLight.)
03-10-2015 10:36 AM
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KNIGHTTIME Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Fox not getting what they hoped for
(03-10-2015 10:13 AM)TIGERCITY Wrote:  
(03-10-2015 10:00 AM)KNIGHTTIME Wrote:  
(03-10-2015 09:44 AM)TIGERCITY Wrote:  
(03-10-2015 09:26 AM)CougarRed Wrote:  Games on Fox draw less than games on ESPN. 0.8 might be good for Fox.

The Big East is the 2nd or 3rd best basketball league in America. Their 10 teams will produce 6 bids.

They'll be fine.

True - no surprises. The FOX - Big East deal was an additional money for less exposure trade from the beginning. As far as the Big East 'product' I'm sure FOX is very happy. And I'd imagine that the Big East teams are ok with their 4M each for basketball. But I doubt FOX or the Big East expected ESPN type numbers.

I doubt they are happy. They wanted to pull viewers away from espn which isn't happening. The big East is small private colleges with smaller following vs massive public schools. I'm curious what damage poor ratings will have on recruiting in the next 5-7 years in the Big East. They don't have football either to carry the brand in the off season.

Well I think they're happy with the Big East product --- how could they not be. The Big East will probably be rated the #2 basketball conference this season. On the other issue --- I have no idea what the TV projections were in the first year. So it's hard to say where FOX is on this. I think the only safe position is that neither party expected ESPN-type numbers --- hence the high price paid by FOX.

Really doesn't matter conference rpi rankings unless it translates to viewers. The SEC can have an off year and still pull big ratings.
03-10-2015 10:42 AM
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kellernr Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Fox not getting what they hoped for
(03-10-2015 09:29 AM)bearcatfan1211 Wrote:  I think it's just as much the channel offering as much as the content. Typically I know exactly what game I want to watch, but if I'm just scrolling looking to put a game on to pass time, I'm never making it all the way to foxsports1/2 buried somewhere on the guide list. The whole Foxsports1 channel being a "rival" to ESPN is an absolute joke. Has anyone ever watched their version of Sportscenter? Like it or not ESPN and their networks are how you get exposure and there is nothing FOX can do to change that.

Everyone says the FOX channels are buried way down the channel lineup. Not sure what provider you have but FS1 is in between the ESPN channels and the other sports channels (nbcsports, cbssports).

FS2 is a waste in my mind. You have to pay for the that channel in it doesn't come in HD.
03-10-2015 10:47 AM
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Chappy Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Fox not getting what they hoped for
I have UVerse and they are mixed in down with the regional sports nets.

1602 ESPN
1604 ESPNews
1605 ESPNU
1605 ESPN2
1607-1609 SEC
1611 Longhorn
Buncha crap I don't get (mostly international sports crap)
1640 NBCSN
1641 Golf
1643 CBSSN
1650 BTN
1651 FS2
1652 FS1
Buncha crap I don't get (regional sports networks)
1724 Fox Sports South
1726 FSS Alternate Feed (Carolina Hurricanes Games)

If they'd move 1640-1652 up with the other channels most subscribers get, they'd be easier to find for people browsing for sports to watch.
(This post was last modified: 03-10-2015 10:58 AM by Chappy.)
03-10-2015 10:49 AM
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BigEastHomer Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Fox not getting what they hoped for
(03-10-2015 09:26 AM)CougarRed Wrote:  The Big East is the 2nd or 3rd best basketball league in America this year. Their 10 teams will produce 6 bids.

They'll be fine.

fify

Conferences have up years and down years. Last year, the A10 was having an up year. This year, they're not.

The MVC placed a bunch of teams in the dance awhile back.

Last year, the AAC had the national champion. This year, its an uphill tourney fight for UCONN to make the dance.

That is just the nature of college basketball. The "bottom 5" teams in this conference will be fine once the new coaches (at UH and USF) are able to fully recruit, and UCF finally gets off sanctions (and brings in their good recruiting class). Before this season, I saw people trying to put Tulsa and Temple in the bottom (and Memphis and UConn at the top).

It's just that absurd to hyperanalyze tiers in this conference at this point. I'd much rather have a Houston than a DePaul. The bigger schools in the AAC (in my opinion) CLEARLY have greater upside. I'll take the huge student bodies at UCF and USF, anyday; without any doubt in my mind that they'll thrive playing the "tent pole" programs in this conference on ESPN.

The ratings for the variety of programs in the AAC would fare better over time because of the make up of the institutions. Thankfully we have ESPN to draw more eyes. Comparing what the AAC would do on Fox is a pointless exercise because it didn't happen.
(This post was last modified: 03-10-2015 11:00 AM by BigEastHomer.)
03-10-2015 10:54 AM
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kellernr Offline
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Post: #27
RE: Fox not getting what they hoped for
(03-10-2015 10:49 AM)Chappy Wrote:  I have UVerse and they are mixed in down with the regional sports nets.

We have Time Warner:

1301.....................ESPN HD
1302....................ESPN2 HD
1303....................ESPNU HD**
1305....................ESPNews HD**
1306................... ESPN Goal Line/Buzzer Beater HD
1309...................Fox Sports Ohio HD
1310.....................RSN Extra HD
1311........................TWC Sports Channel HD
1313.......................TWC SportsNet HD
1314......................Universal Sports HD
1316......................Golf Channel HD
1317.......................FOX Sports 1 HD
1318......................FXX HD**
1322.....................CBS Sports Network HD**
1323.....................NBCSN HD
1324.....................NHL Network HD
1325.....................NBA TV HD**
1326.....................MLB Network HD**
1327.....................The Tennis Channel HD
1329.....................TWC SportsNet LA HD
1330....................Outdoor Channel HD**
1333.....................Big Ten Network HD
1337.....................beIN Sport HD
1339.....................Fox Soccer Plus HD
1340...................Mav TV HD
1341......................YES HD
1342.....................NESN HD
1343.....................MLB Strike Zone HD
1346....................NFL Network HD
1347.....................NFL RedZone HD
03-10-2015 10:56 AM
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BigEastHomer Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Fox not getting what they hoped for
(03-10-2015 10:00 AM)KNIGHTTIME Wrote:  I doubt they are happy. They wanted to pull viewers away from espn which isn't happening. The big East is small private colleges with smaller following vs massive public schools. I'm curious what damage poor ratings will have on recruiting in the next 5-7 years in the Big East. They don't have football either to carry the brand in the off season.

All good questions! 04-cheers
(This post was last modified: 03-10-2015 11:04 AM by BigEastHomer.)
03-10-2015 10:58 AM
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mike012779 Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Fox not getting what they hoped for
The Big East is doing exactly what they need them to do. It gives them something to show on TV from Nov-March when college football games begin to dwindle. I am guessing when this deal is up Fox may not need them anymore and give them a low ball number. However Fox needed basketball and something to show on tv besides sport commercials. They probably would have paid more if the Big East played more hardball. I am guessing fox was desperate. In 10 years maybe fox has enough pull to get a P5 conference deal.... but that wasn't happening 2 years ago I know.
03-10-2015 11:06 AM
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TIGERCITY Offline
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Post: #30
RE: Fox not getting what they hoped for
(03-10-2015 10:42 AM)KNIGHTTIME Wrote:  
(03-10-2015 10:13 AM)TIGERCITY Wrote:  
(03-10-2015 10:00 AM)KNIGHTTIME Wrote:  
(03-10-2015 09:44 AM)TIGERCITY Wrote:  
(03-10-2015 09:26 AM)CougarRed Wrote:  Games on Fox draw less than games on ESPN. 0.8 might be good for Fox.

The Big East is the 2nd or 3rd best basketball league in America. Their 10 teams will produce 6 bids.

They'll be fine.

True - no surprises. The FOX - Big East deal was an additional money for less exposure trade from the beginning. As far as the Big East 'product' I'm sure FOX is very happy. And I'd imagine that the Big East teams are ok with their 4M each for basketball. But I doubt FOX or the Big East expected ESPN type numbers.

I doubt they are happy. They wanted to pull viewers away from espn which isn't happening. The big East is small private colleges with smaller following vs massive public schools. I'm curious what damage poor ratings will have on recruiting in the next 5-7 years in the Big East. They don't have football either to carry the brand in the off season.

Well I think they're happy with the Big East product --- how could they not be. The Big East will probably be rated the #2 basketball conference this season. On the other issue --- I have no idea what the TV projections were in the first year. So it's hard to say where FOX is on this. I think the only safe position is that neither party expected ESPN-type numbers --- hence the high price paid by FOX.

Really doesn't matter conference rpi rankings unless it translates to viewers. The SEC can have an off year and still pull big ratings.

Well I'll say it again but I really don't think it could be more clear --- the Big East and FOX made a 'more money in exchange for less exposure deal.' How else can one begin to explain Big East basketball getting twice amount the AAC is getting for BOTH basketball and football. You're assuming that those Big East TV numbers were radically less than what was projected by FOX in the first year. I'm saying we don't know what those numbers were nor do we know FOX's long term strategic thinking when signing this deal. All we can say with any degree of certainty is that the FOX-Big East deal anticipated numbers well below those that ESPN could have provided the Big East. Hence the premium paid --
03-10-2015 11:19 AM
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msm96wolf Offline
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Post: #31
RE: Fox not getting what they hoped for
I think the true measure for Fox will be if they can get the B1G TV contract. I think having B10 and Big East games on the same network would help Fox's ratings. One thing is for sure, B1G will be raking in the money.
(This post was last modified: 03-10-2015 11:20 AM by msm96wolf.)
03-10-2015 11:20 AM
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kellernr Offline
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Post: #32
RE: Fox not getting what they hoped for
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Ten_Network

Fox has a good chance at getting the B1G. They already own 51% of the B1G network.
03-10-2015 11:25 AM
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stxrunner Offline
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Post: #33
RE: Fox not getting what they hoped for
(03-10-2015 10:11 AM)robertfoshizzle Wrote:  What did they expect? The best basketball brands from the old Big East (UConn, Syracuse, Louisville) are gone, leaving behind a bunch of small, Catholic schools that don't move the needle nationally. Georgetown used to, but JT Jr. and Patrick Ewing aren't walking through that door anymore. It's great basketball, but casual fans don't care.

/End thread

(03-10-2015 10:31 AM)Bull Wrote:  
(03-10-2015 09:52 AM)shere khan Wrote:  Quo in 3, 2, 1

He speaks for the Big East!


Seriously though... many of you guys are probably not old enough to remember the launch of Fox news. I was pretty young myself, but at the time CNN absolutely dominated and ruled cable news. Heck, they invented the 24 hour news channel. When Fox lanuched it's news network, it was (IIRC) derided and given no chance... and now it's number 1. (Lets not get into politics here... I'm strictly talking about marketplace success and a business model)

Point is, FOX sports COULD succeed even under the umbrella of ESPN. They just need to be smart, build up their brand, and keep trying. Their big payout for the BE was probably an attempted step along this path. Maybe it's not a perfect analogy, but I would not sell Fox sports short just yet. How many of us have been demanding some alternative to ESPiN?

See above for why these situations are so different. Fox News succeeded because they went out and catered to a forgotten part of the market and slowly turned them onto the network.

The big east fanbase isn't some large forgotten market segment. They are exactly what robert described above. A bunch of schools who play excellent underrated basketball but won't move the needle nationally anymore as a result of ESPN's moratorium on the big east and the fact that the real big national draws are gone, all in the ACC.

The big east will probably continue to be one of the best 4 basketball leagues going forward, but in the end, they are going to come crashing back down to earth financially after their current deal runs out, which fortunately for them, isn't for a while if im not mistaken.
03-10-2015 11:30 AM
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bearcatlawjd2 Offline
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Post: #34
RE: Fox not getting what they hoped for
The Big East is a very good basketball conference with small loyal fan bases that don't bring in TV numbers. I still believe the C7 would have been better off sticking with the football schools under the Big East banner. That conference would have been a 6 to 10 bid basketball league and a solid football league if it included Boise State and SDSU.

Fox overpaid because the Big East schools were giving up a lot to start a new conference. I am not sure the Big East receives that type of contract the second time around.

From a perception standpoint the Big East is at the same level as the American and Mountain West and ahead of the A-10, Missouri Valley, WCC, and C-USA. Even though the Big East is ranked ahead of most power five conference it still is a "major" non power five conference like the American and Mountain West, which is still behind the power five. As a whole that group includes "major" national basketball historic brand names like Georgetown, Villanova, St. John's, Marquette, Cincinnati, UConn, Memphis, Temple, UNLV, and New Mexico plus all the other newcomers to party like Xavier, SMU, SDSU, Boise State and company.
(This post was last modified: 03-10-2015 11:52 AM by bearcatlawjd2.)
03-10-2015 11:50 AM
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BigHouston Offline
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Post: #35
RE: Fox not getting what they hoped for
This isn't at all good for Georgetown, if no one is watching them (new big east) now why will anyone care to watch them later.

It's a lemon.
03-10-2015 12:11 PM
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KNIGHTTIME Offline
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Post: #36
RE: Fox not getting what they hoped for
(03-10-2015 11:19 AM)TIGERCITY Wrote:  
(03-10-2015 10:42 AM)KNIGHTTIME Wrote:  
(03-10-2015 10:13 AM)TIGERCITY Wrote:  
(03-10-2015 10:00 AM)KNIGHTTIME Wrote:  
(03-10-2015 09:44 AM)TIGERCITY Wrote:  True - no surprises. The FOX - Big East deal was an additional money for less exposure trade from the beginning. As far as the Big East 'product' I'm sure FOX is very happy. And I'd imagine that the Big East teams are ok with their 4M each for basketball. But I doubt FOX or the Big East expected ESPN type numbers.

I doubt they are happy. They wanted to pull viewers away from espn which isn't happening. The big East is small private colleges with smaller following vs massive public schools. I'm curious what damage poor ratings will have on recruiting in the next 5-7 years in the Big East. They don't have football either to carry the brand in the off season.

Well I think they're happy with the Big East product --- how could they not be. The Big East will probably be rated the #2 basketball conference this season. On the other issue --- I have no idea what the TV projections were in the first year. So it's hard to say where FOX is on this. I think the only safe position is that neither party expected ESPN-type numbers --- hence the high price paid by FOX.

Really doesn't matter conference rpi rankings unless it translates to viewers. The SEC can have an off year and still pull big ratings.

Well I'll say it again but I really don't think it could be more clear --- the Big East and FOX made a 'more money in exchange for less exposure deal.' How else can one begin to explain Big East basketball getting twice amount the AAC is getting for BOTH basketball and football. You're assuming that those Big East TV numbers were radically less than what was projected by FOX in the first year. I'm saying we don't know what those numbers were nor do we know FOX's long term strategic thinking when signing this deal. All we can say with any degree of certainty is that the FOX-Big East deal anticipated numbers well below those that ESPN could have provided the Big East. Hence the premium paid --

Yeah we know the big east had to get a premium to take a risk of being on a new network. I'm sure fox assumed they would have pulled some espn viewers though. I'm sure the big east wants 12 teams and there is no way fox is going to shell more money at the big east right now to expand.
03-10-2015 12:11 PM
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Hokie Mark Offline
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Post: #37
RE: Fox not getting what they hoped for
(03-10-2015 09:26 AM)CougarRed Wrote:  Games on Fox draw less than games on ESPN. 0.8 might be good for Fox.

Fox definitely gets lower ratings than CBS and ABC, even lower than NBC and ESPN, but it's fairly easy to account for those differences...

From "TV Ratings too low for ACCN?" on ACCFootballRx:

Average Rating by Network:
Network Avg Ratg
CBS 3.44
ABC 3.07
NBC 1.83
ESPN 1.63
Fox 1.31
ESPN2 0.58
FS1 0.39
ESPNU 0.22
ESPNews 0.1
FS2 0.05

If an AAC game is on ESPN and the Big East game is on Fox, it's really a fair fight because Fox is in every home and SHOULD get higher ratings. Even FS/1 is in more homes than ESPNU.
03-10-2015 12:47 PM
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HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Offline
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Post: #38
RE: Fox not getting what they hoped for
It is like the country music scene.

Aaron Watson has superior music to Blake Shelton, but Shelton has the FM Radio on his side. People, on the average, listen to the radio.

It is not a Big East-AAC battle, it is a Fox Sports-ESPN war.
03-10-2015 12:52 PM
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Post: #39
RE: Fox not getting what they hoped for
(03-10-2015 11:30 AM)stxrunner Wrote:  
(03-10-2015 10:11 AM)robertfoshizzle Wrote:  What did they expect? The best basketball brands from the old Big East (UConn, Syracuse, Louisville) are gone, leaving behind a bunch of small, Catholic schools that don't move the needle nationally. Georgetown used to, but JT Jr. and Patrick Ewing aren't walking through that door anymore. It's great basketball, but casual fans don't care.

/End thread

(03-10-2015 10:31 AM)Bull Wrote:  
(03-10-2015 09:52 AM)shere khan Wrote:  Quo in 3, 2, 1

He speaks for the Big East!


Seriously though... many of you guys are probably not old enough to remember the launch of Fox news. I was pretty young myself, but at the time CNN absolutely dominated and ruled cable news. Heck, they invented the 24 hour news channel. When Fox lanuched it's news network, it was (IIRC) derided and given no chance... and now it's number 1. (Lets not get into politics here... I'm strictly talking about marketplace success and a business model)

Point is, FOX sports COULD succeed even under the umbrella of ESPN. They just need to be smart, build up their brand, and keep trying. Their big payout for the BE was probably an attempted step along this path. Maybe it's not a perfect analogy, but I would not sell Fox sports short just yet. How many of us have been demanding some alternative to ESPiN?

See above for why these situations are so different. Fox News succeeded because they went out and catered to a forgotten part of the market and slowly turned them onto the network.

The big east fanbase isn't some large forgotten market segment. They are exactly what robert described above. A bunch of schools who play excellent underrated basketball but won't move the needle nationally anymore as a result of ESPN's moratorium on the big east and the fact that the real big national draws are gone, all in the ACC.

The big east will probably continue to be one of the best 4 basketball leagues going forward, but in the end, they are going to come crashing back down to earth financially after their current deal runs out, which fortunately for them, isn't for a while if im not mistaken.

To carry on with that example---when Fox News came on line, they did not start out with the idea of appealing to the forgotten 40-50% of the conservative audience. That move came later and has proved to be HUGELY successful.

Which is why I think its only a matter of time before a poorly followed national sports network gears its coverage to the G5. NBC-Sports is probably best positioned to make this move. Its a VERY similar situation. You have nearly 30% of the college sports audience virtually ignored by the mainstream sports networks. Worse yet, when they are addressed, its usually to make fun of them or denigrate them.

This is a larger, more loyal, audience than many networks. More importantly, it is an large untapped college educated high income audience.

If NBC was wise, they would pick up CUSA this year. They would then buy 3rd tier MW games and AAC games when available. In 5 years, they can pick up a package of AAC rights as well. NBC could do talking head G5 shows and a conference for each conferences during the week (or it could be a more general show similar to College Football Live). Add in a G5-centric Saturday "Game Day" show and Notre Dame games as a network lead in anchor, and NBC could carve out a very lucrative niche for themselves on Saturdays. If they really wanted to blow the deal open, they could create a high paying bowl games that feature NBC-owned conference champs against high selections from the P5, thus raising the importance of G5 championships.
(This post was last modified: 03-10-2015 01:32 PM by Attackcoog.)
03-10-2015 01:27 PM
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jaredf29 Offline
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Post: #40
RE: Fox not getting what they hoped for
The exposure has been great but we are in more competition for Thursday and Friday games because the other conferences have taken note. Thursday and Friday games, Friday especially being the only game in town we are being pushed out.
03-10-2015 02:35 PM
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