I would think the players would want the NBA to fund the D league to get it up to 30 teams so each team has a farm team + get some decent wages at that level. In exchange, raise the age limit to 20 or even 21.

(03-06-2015 10:52 AM)bluesox Wrote:  I would think the players would want the NBA to fund the D league to get it up to 30 teams so each team has a farm team + get some decent wages at that level. In exchange, raise the age limit to 20 or even 21.

21...don't see that...for players it is about getting to that 2nd Contract as soon as possible...waiting until you're 25 to 26 isn't going to fly when you can get to it at 22 to 23 years of age.

(03-06-2015 01:40 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(03-05-2015 07:55 PM)ken d Wrote:  On some level, I have to wonder if the NBAPA has concluded that public opinion is so opposed to the current "one and done" model that it will inevitably be scrapped, and they want to be seen as the group that made it happen, not the one that tried to stop it.

But for fans who want it to happen, I would warn them to be careful what they wish for. Replacing one and done won't be better for them if it just means the NBA can draft players right out of high school. The players who don't get drafted in high school could still leave college after one year if they choose (assuming they didn't declare themselves pros earlier). It only helps the schools if the NBA goes in the other direction and refuses to draft players until they have played two or more years in college.

This has always been an issue where my principles (where I believe any person that's good enough to play as a pro ought to be able to play immediately) conflict with practicality (where no age limit means that too many people that *aren't* good enough to play as pros immediately enter the draft and get drafted). If only LeBron-types entered the draft and, in turn, NBA GMs only drafted LeBron-types, then there wouldn't be a need for an age limit. The problem is that the top 30 high school seniors all think that they're LeBron-types (or even worse, they've got money-grubbing family members telling them that they're LeBron-types), and then the NBA GMs are so mortified of missing out on the next LeBron-type that they draft non-LeBron-types based on pure athleticism and tremendous upside potential. That can work in baseball and hockey drafts since they have fully-developed minor league systems, but top draft picks in basketball are expected/needed to contribute *immediately* at the top level.

As much as I hate otherwise arbitrary rules in general, an age limit is the only practical mechanism to protect players and NBA GMs from themselves. Both the NBA and college basketball would benefit greatly from a 20-year old age limit.

NBA execs who panic and draft unready high school players, will panic and draft a college freshman who doesn't have the tools.

From 1975 to 2005 there were 43 high school players drafted, of them 33 played three or NBA seasons. Only two taken in the first round didn't make it three years.

One study (older one) showed more international players taken in the first round were busts (defined as playing fewer than 50 games in the NBA) than high school players.

Bad GM's are going to do bad GM things, you can't prevent that.

(03-06-2015 09:26 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(03-06-2015 08:16 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  IMO, principle should triumph: There's nothing magical about pro sports. Once you turn 18, you should be able to get into any line of work you want, which means you have the freedom to screw yourself by getting in to early, as does your employer if they hire you too soon.

I understand what you're saying, but it's not true at all that anyone can work anywhere that they want when you turn 18. An 18-year kid that didn't go to college can't get a job as an investment banker at Goldman Sachs even if he is an economic genius. Even in Silicon Valley, where many startups are headed by college "dropouts" (put in quotes since it's quite different to drop out of Harvard to pursue a brilliant business idea as opposed to your typical dropout), just try applying for a job without a college degree even if you have the technical skills and you'll find it tough. The most lucrative jobs in America have top standards that generally preclude people out of high school from getting them, so why should that be any different for the NBA or any other pro sports league?

Plus, the NBA doesn't exist with a mandate to simply hire basketball players in whatever form that may come.

Yes, but on Wall Street or at Silicon Valley, there is no age-categorical rule against hiring someone who is 18. It might be extremely unlikely that an 18 year old can meet Silicon Valley or Wall Street standards, but they aren't categorically precluded from meeting them by formal company or industry rules. To me, that's an important formal difference.

Obviously, the NBA isn't obligated to hire anyone, 18 or 28. And if there is a good business reason for categorically excluding 18 year olds, then it makes sense to do so and they have the right to do so. But i personally think it would be a bad move. Policy should be flexible enough to allow for exceptions, like a Lebron.

(03-06-2015 10:54 AM)Maize Wrote:  

(03-06-2015 10:52 AM)bluesox Wrote:  I would think the players would want the NBA to fund the D league to get it up to 30 teams so each team has a farm team + get some decent wages at that level. In exchange, raise the age limit to 20 or even 21.

21...don't see that...for players it is about getting to that 2nd Contract as soon as possible...waiting until you're 25 to 26 isn't going to fly when you can get to it at 22 to 23 years of age.

except why should current players give a rip about that at all. If I'm a 30 year old NBA player, what do I care if the age limit is 18 or 20? If anything, I want it to be 20 or higher to protect my job. But the problem is my agent absolutely cares- he wants it to be 18 so he can get his hands on all those players ASAP.

The bottom line is silicon valley, wall street, school's or the NBA can pretty much do whatever they want:


http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2006/5...enroll-at/

(03-06-2015 11:41 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(03-06-2015 10:54 AM)Maize Wrote:  

(03-06-2015 10:52 AM)bluesox Wrote:  I would think the players would want the NBA to fund the D league to get it up to 30 teams so each team has a farm team + get some decent wages at that level. In exchange, raise the age limit to 20 or even 21.

21...don't see that...for players it is about getting to that 2nd Contract as soon as possible...waiting until you're 25 to 26 isn't going to fly when you can get to it at 22 to 23 years of age.

except why should current players give a rip about that at all. If I'm a 30 year old NBA player, what do I care if the age limit is 18 or 20? If anything, I want it to be 20 or higher to protect my job. But the problem is my agent absolutely cares- he wants it to be 18 so he can get his hands on all those players ASAP.

That is how they and their agents feel...the NBPA is only giving the sentiments of it members and their agents...

I'd like the NFL and the NBA to use something similar to the MLB. You can draft amateur players out of high school, and if they don't sign they can go to college. Junior college players can be drafted as freshmen or sophomores, but students in 4 year colleges can't be drafted until 3 years. Any time a player doesn't sign, they can continue to play in college.

I think it would be very rare for a high school player to go into the NFL, but I think some running backs could be drafted that early. Leonard Fournette would have probably been drafted a year ago if he'd been eligible.

Could you imagine being that stud QB that gets drafted as a junior by the Cleveland Browns (or whatever not very good franchise) and just decide, Nope, I'm playing another year in the SEC.

The whole declare for the draft thing needs to go away.

If they want to draft you, let 'em do it. The business of making it the kid's call is ridiculous and strips them of leverage (of course the owners like them losing leverage).

(03-06-2015 11:41 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  Yes, but on Wall Street or at Silicon Valley, there is no age-categorical rule against hiring someone who is 18. It might be extremely unlikely that an 18 year old can meet Silicon Valley or Wall Street standards, but they aren't categorically precluded from meeting them by formal company or industry rules. To me, that's an important formal difference.

Obviously, the NBA isn't obligated to hire anyone, 18 or 28. And if there is a good business reason for categorically excluding 18 year olds, then it makes sense to do so and they have the right to do so. But i personally think it would be a bad move. Policy should be flexible enough to allow for exceptions, like a Lebron.

Totally agree with your last sentence in theory, but once again, the practicality is the problem. When *everyone* thinks that they are the exception like LeBron, then it becomes the general rule (which is what occurred in the late-1990s/early-2000s with virtually every top high school player declaring for the draft).

Plus, I'm looking at this as a fan: to me, the quality of basketball in both the NBA and college basketball suffered greatly during that no age limit period. It was basically the worst of both worlds: all of the most talented high school players declared for the NBA Draft, which simultaneously depleted the talent level of college basketball and provided the NBA with a whole generation of unpolished rookies who often didn't to play much their first couple of years. I'd rather have the one-and-done setup than go back to those dark ages. At least the one-and-done setup provides a speed bump for all of those unscrupulous agents out there that just want every young player to get paid immediately regardless of whether it makes sense at all (while also allowing NBA GMs to catch their breath and provide a bit more information from a year of college play as opposed to just high school).

(03-06-2015 12:24 AM)DexterDevil Wrote:  So why did they make this a race topic as well? Majority of hockey players are foreign, teams can draft college players while they still play for their college, and both hockey and baseball have junior and minor leagues that the younger players develop in before going pro.

The Union Rep is playing the race card because he knows it will get the owners attention very quickly. After the issue with the Clippers owner last year the NBA needs to keep race issues out of the press.

I have actually heard the same argument used against making freshmen ineligible. That the rule would unfairly target men of color.

As a man of color I myself support both rules. Whatever gets young men that don't want to be students into their chosen field quicker, I am for. I would like to see the elimination of the NBA age rule while instituting the freshmen ineligibility rule.

If you don't want to be a student try your luck at the NBA, let your talent and skill take you where it will, like any other industry. If you don't get drafted then you should be able to go to college, play and develop your skills, knowing it's a two year commitment. Make it the responsibility of the NBA to draft players that are qualified and capable to play in their league. Don't leave it up to a kid to listen to an army of shysters pushing their agendas to determine if he's ready for the NBA.

Presently there are a couple of dozen young men that are making millions for college teams that should be putting those millions into their own pockets. When you consider the longevity of the average NBA player, missing out on a season of earning potential is huge.
CJ

(03-06-2015 01:22 PM)CardinalJim Wrote:  

(03-06-2015 12:24 AM)DexterDevil Wrote:  So why did they make this a race topic as well? Majority of hockey players are foreign, teams can draft college players while they still play for their college, and both hockey and baseball have junior and minor leagues that the younger players develop in before going pro.

The Union Rep is playing the race card because he knows it will get the owners attention very quickly. After the issue with the Clippers owner last year the NBA needs to keep race issues out of the press.

I have actually heard the same argument used against making freshmen ineligible. That the rule would unfairly target men of color.

As a man of color I myself support both rules. Whatever gets young men that don't want to be students into their chosen field quicker, I am for. I would like to see the elimination of the NBA age rule while instituting the freshmen ineligibility rule.

If you don't want to be a student try your luck at the NBA, let your talent and skill take you where it will, like any other industry. If you don't get drafted then you should be able to go to college, play and develop your skills, knowing it's a two year commitment. Make it the responsibility of the NBA to draft players that are qualified and capable to play in their league. Don't leave it up to a kid to listen to an army of shysters pushing their agendas to determine if he's ready for the NBA.

Presently there are a couple of dozen young men that are making millions for college teams that should be putting those millions into their own pockets. When you consider the longevity of the average NBA player, missing out on a season of earning potential is huge.
CJ

Excellent Points...

The NCAA should allow athletes to enter the draft & still give them the option to come back to college once without penalty. Let a high school kid enter the NBA Draft & if he goes undrafted or if they dont like the result let him go to college but if he enters again he is disqualified from college.

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as a fan of a school that doesn't routinely pull in top 10 recruits anymore, i love the age rule. the traditional powers can grab the would be one and dones and not waste time on a kid my school would be going after. with that said, baseball's got it right and there should be no reason why there is an age limit

(03-06-2015 01:33 PM)Lenvillecards Wrote:  The NCAA should allow athletes to enter the draft & still give them the option to come back to college once without penalty. Let a high school kid enter the NBA Draft & if he goes undrafted or if they dont like the result let him go to college but if he enters again he is disqualified from college.

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As long as that player doesn't sign with an agent, or take any money.

(03-05-2015 06:04 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  I continue to be perplexed why the NBAPA has such a hardline public stance on this issue outside of using it as a bargaining chip with the owners.

The current NBAPA veteran members would *benefit* from a higher age limit as it preserves more of their jobs that wouldn't go to rookies. Note that so many people seem to ignore the NFL's age limit which has worked quite well for them and, for that matter, college football.

Frank I don't think you saw my post on this in the last thread where this came up. The NBAPA is for this because the lower age limit actually PRESERVES the jobs of vets. Players wash out at a higher degree or spend more time on the bench or in the D League, leaving more roster spots for vets. Did you know that when juniors and sophomores and freshmen started coming out in the early 90's and When high schoolers first started coming into the NBA in 95 and 96, the average age in the NBA actually went WAY up? Despite the draft including even younger players?

It's really all the proof needed as to why it's a good thing for them to require players have more seasoning. Because the net effect is the players fail at a higher rate leading to existing vets holding onto their jobs longer, which proves how bad an idea it is. But it helps the current players.

(03-06-2015 11:30 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  From 1975 to 2005 there were 43 high school players drafted, of them 33 played three or NBA seasons. Only two taken in the first round didn't make it three years.

There is a major flaw in those numbers. Not that they are wrong, but in how you can interpret them. First round draft picks used to be guaranteed three years (currently it is two). That means you have to pay them, and have to keep them in the roster for three years, and since you have limited roster spots, you have to use them. Basically they have to play because no teams make it thru the year without injuries forcing them into action.

(03-06-2015 11:41 AM)stever20 Wrote:  except why should current players give a rip about that at all. If I'm a 30 year old NBA player, what do I care if the age limit is 18 or 20? If anything, I want it to be 20 or higher to protect my job. But the problem is my agent absolutely cares- he wants it to be 18 so he can get his hands on all those players ASAP.

The best way to preserve your job is to allow younger players in. Case in point currently there are 20 Players on NBA rosters this year who are 35 or older: 53 who are 33 or over, with 110 who are 30 and over. In the 85-86 season there were only 4 players who were 35 or over, and 14 who were 33 and over. There were 60 who were 30 or over. In 2000-2001 when the prep-to-pro era was in full swing, there were 78 players in the league over 33, and 39 who were over 35. There were 155 were 30 and over. All of those flops allowed more vets to hang onto jobs.


Want to know why the vets like the rule? THAT is why!

I would like to see the NBA make several changes related to this issue.

I believe the NBA should be allowed to draft any player right out of high school. However, I don't think any player should be required to "declare" for the draft in order to be drafted. At the same time, I believe that once a player has signed an LOI he should not be eligible for the draft. That LOI should be considered an enforceable contract.

If he is drafted, he should be entitled to representation before signing an NBA contract, without giving up the right to play in the NCAA if he decides not to sign (unless he accepts money from a team or agent). If he is not drafted out of HS, or is drafted but doesn't sign, he should not be eligible to play in the NBA for at least two seasons. He still has the option of playing professionally somewhere else if he chooses. After that second season he may be drafted again, but unless he declares himself a professional or takes money he may still return to school. The NBA team assumes the risk that he may not sign.

If a player signs with an NBA team right out of high school, he must play 3 seasons in the league before he is eligible to sign his second contract. But if he plays two years in college, he can resign with the team that drafted him after only two years.

College coaches may not like these terms much better than the current ones. The timing of the draft relative to LOI signing dates would probably cause some major roster uncertainty for them. Top players like Jahlil Okafor would likely wait until after the draft before signing an LOI. But schools can't expect that the NBA will take all the risk here. If they don't want to assume some risk, they should stick to recruiting players they are sure won't go pro right away.

Your "enforceable" contract part would never pan out, because unless they planned to do the same with coaches'contracts it would be thrown out immediately if ever challenged in court.

Why can't the NBA go full throttle on the D League like baseball and hockey? Give the good prospects a big signing bonus and send them to the D League for a couple of years for seasoning. Seems simple enough.