The B12 Louisville snub is just plain dumb.

Had they picked Louisville, they stick the ACC with either WVU or UConn (probably UConn).

A Louisville, Cinci, WVU eastern contingent would have made a lot of sense and given them their championship game with 3 Top 30 Football programs (teams Texas and OU can beat but don't hurt their BCS or SOS ratings)

KS doesn't win the B12 basketball 10 years in a row with Pitino in the mix.


I still asset the B12 should have just added BYU and left WVU alone. Same difference in terms of audience/population. BYU has better academics. Let the ACC/B1G/SEC fight it out in the east. I actually think that would have insulated the teams and made them less attractive (in a good way) for any additional raiding.

BYU going Indy.

(02-25-2015 11:53 AM)MWC Tex Wrote:  BYU going Indy.

I don't see that. They've positioned to be thought of as at least a "tweener" school if not an outright power school as an independent. That's simply not possible being in a G5 conference. Sure, BYU would rather be in a power conference, but being independent does much more for their brand than being in a G5 league.

(02-25-2015 12:00 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(02-25-2015 11:53 AM)MWC Tex Wrote:  BYU going Indy.

I don't see that. They've positioned to be thought of as at least a "tweener" school if not an outright power school as an independent. That's simply not possible being in a G5 conference. Sure, BYU would rather be in a power conference, but being independent does much more for their brand than being in a G5 league.

It has shown already and will continue to do so. No bowls above a 3rd tier, no chance at a playoff or Major Bowl. Recruiting hasn't been better since going Indy. They'll always get some upper level LDS players but players aren't going to be motivated after the first loss and that relegates them to the Hawaii or Bahamas bowl. Even going undefeated, with the few spots that are left for at large major bowls isn't going keep the Indy cause going when a 2 loss MW team goes to the Fiesta or Peach bowl.

Just wait a couple of years more. They know they can't be Indy while trying to keep up with Utah.

(02-25-2015 12:13 PM)MWC Tex Wrote:  Just wait a couple of years more. They know they can't be Indy while trying to keep up with Utah.

That might be the case, but that doesn't mean that being in the G5 is somehow going to aid in keeping up with Utah compared to independence. I don't see how BYU being in the AAC or MWC helps anyone other than the AAC or MWC. It's net neutral at best for BYU on-the-field (and a big-time negative off-the-field for BYU in terms of branding, control and TV money).

For BYU:

Power conference (meaning Big 12) > independence > G5

Let's not conflate the fact that independence for BYU is worse than being in a power conference like Utah (which is true) with the thought that this means G5 membership is better for BYU (which is false).

(02-25-2015 12:13 PM)MWC Tex Wrote:  No bowls above a 3rd tier

This is also true for every G5 program, except for the one team each year that is selected for an access bowl.

(02-25-2015 12:13 PM)MWC Tex Wrote:  no chance at a playoff

The P5 conference champs have an edge for the four playoff spots because being a champ of one of those conferences gives credibility in the eyes of that committee. All other teams -- P5 non-champs, indies like ND and BYU, and all G5 teams -- are in the same boat, IMO, in that they effectively have to be good enough to exclude two P5 conference champs (one is already excluded, obviously, because there are only four playoff teams) in order to grab one of those four playoff spots.

If anything, being indy gives BYU, like ND, the opportunity to build a schedule strong enough to possibly get that kind of credibility with the committee in a 12-0 or 11-1 season. A G5 team that has to play 8 or 9 conference games has less flexibility to build that kind of schedule.

(02-25-2015 12:46 PM)Wedge Wrote:  If anything, being indy gives BYU, like ND, the opportunity to build a schedule strong enough to possibly get that kind of credibility with the committee in a 12-0 or 11-1 season. A G5 team that has to play 8 or 9 conference games has less flexibility to build that kind of schedule.

The difference is the ability to schedule H:H contracts with P5 schools. Playing 5 P5 games a year with 4/5 on the road is not a recipe for success. It's the path the Philadelphia SPHAs took when the Philadelphia Warriors (now Golden State) joined the NBA precursor league instead of the SPHAs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philadelphia_Sphas

(02-25-2015 12:22 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(02-25-2015 12:13 PM)MWC Tex Wrote:  Just wait a couple of years more. They know they can't be Indy while trying to keep up with Utah.

That might be the case, but that doesn't mean that being in the G5 is somehow going to aid in keeping up with Utah compared to independence. I don't see how BYU being in the AAC or MWC helps anyone other than the AAC or MWC. It's net neutral at best for BYU on-the-field (and a big-time negative off-the-field for BYU in terms of branding, control and TV money).

For BYU:

Power conference (meaning Big 12) > independence > G5

Let's not conflate the fact that independence for BYU is worse than being in a power conference like Utah (which is true) with the thought that this means G5 membership is better for BYU (which is false).

BYU could play an 8 game AAC/MWC conference slate and 4 P5 money games on the road and it would look very similar to their independence schedule but would provide a shot at an access bowl.

2015 BYU G5 schedule:
Boise
UCONN
ECU
Cinci
Wagner
Fresno
SJSU
USU

2015 BYU P5 Schedule
@NEB
@Mich
@UCLA
@Mizzou

(02-25-2015 01:11 PM)jrj84105 Wrote:  

(02-25-2015 12:22 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(02-25-2015 12:13 PM)MWC Tex Wrote:  Just wait a couple of years more. They know they can't be Indy while trying to keep up with Utah.

That might be the case, but that doesn't mean that being in the G5 is somehow going to aid in keeping up with Utah compared to independence. I don't see how BYU being in the AAC or MWC helps anyone other than the AAC or MWC. It's net neutral at best for BYU on-the-field (and a big-time negative off-the-field for BYU in terms of branding, control and TV money).

For BYU:

Power conference (meaning Big 12) > independence > G5

Let's not conflate the fact that independence for BYU is worse than being in a power conference like Utah (which is true) with the thought that this means G5 membership is better for BYU (which is false).

BYU could play an 8 game AAC/MWC conference slate and 4 P5 money games on the road and it would look very similar to their independence schedule but would provide a shot at an access bowl.

2015 BYU G5 schedule:
Boise
UCONN
ECU
Cinci
Wagner
Fresno
SJSU
USU

2015 BYU P5 Schedule
@NEB
@Mich
@UCLA
@Mizzou

Very disingenuous to just look at 2015 and then ignore all of the home and neutral site games that BYU has scheduled with P5 schools for the next several years. They definitely can't get the schedules that they have in 2016 and beyond playing in a G5 league.

Plus, the scheduling is only one facet of the issue. Branding, branding, branding. Avoiding the G5 label is more important than anything else. I'm sure as a Utes fan that you'd love to see BYU get that G5 label (just as G5 fans want BYU to validate their leagues by joining them), but if people are being objective, you have to look at it from BYU's rational self-interest. Independence is better for the BYU brand (and better for their TV money and exposure, as well). If a Big 12 invite comes, then sure, BYU would be nuts to choose independence over a power conference membership. G5 membership, though, is largely worthless to BYU.

(02-25-2015 01:04 PM)jrj84105 Wrote:  

(02-25-2015 12:46 PM)Wedge Wrote:  If anything, being indy gives BYU, like ND, the opportunity to build a schedule strong enough to possibly get that kind of credibility with the committee in a 12-0 or 11-1 season. A G5 team that has to play 8 or 9 conference games has less flexibility to build that kind of schedule.

The difference is the ability to schedule H:H contracts with P5 schools. Playing 5 P5 games a year with 4/5 on the road is not a recipe for success.

It worked for Florida State when they were independent in the 1970s and 1980s. They played a lot of games at places like LSU, Michigan, Ohio State, and Nebraska, and almost never got those teams to Tallahassee. BYU is getting more home games from those "power" teams now than FSU did back then.

That scheduling does a helluva lot more for a team's reputation than just scheduling soft and complaining that the big boys won't come to your place often enough. That never convinces anyone that a team is worthy.

If the MAC didn't take NIU back in 1997, Huskie football (and by extension Huskie Athletics as a whole) would be but a shadow of it's current reputation. NIU probably be a mid-level Summit, Horizon or MVC program with what, an independent FBS football team? Been there, done that....

Thanks, MAC. Sincerely.

(02-25-2015 10:37 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(02-24-2015 07:21 PM)jrj84105 Wrote:  The Big East/AAC not seeing the writing on the wall with respect to the C7/BBall only schools. Had the C7 split been correctly seen as inevitable, and full membership offered to Boise, CSU, BYU, SDSU the line between the Haves and Have Nots would have been slightly blurred, and we probably wouldn't be talking about the P5 and Go5.

This seems to be a popular line of thinking when looking at it with 20/20 hindsight, but here's the bottom line: Miami was *ALWAYS* going to take an ACC invite if it ever came. That was their dream conference in the same way the Big Ten was the dream conference for Rutgers or the Pac-12 was the dream conference for Utah. It wouldn't have mattered if the Big East had a crystal ball to see the college sports world in 2015 and tried to have the C7 separate back in the 1990s. MIAMI WAS ALWAYS GOING TO LEAVE - IT WAS JUST A MATTER OF "WHEN" AND NOT "IF". Once Miami left, everyone in the Big East was going to leave for any other power conference if invited.

It boggles my mind that anyone seriously believes that the Big East splitting off from Georgetown and Villanova in order to add Boise, UCF, et. al would have actually helped to *retain* the likes of Syracuse. If anything, the C7 were the only reason why those football schools had any heartburn at all over leaving the Big East. The old line Big East football schools certainly didn't give a crap about playing then-C-USA and MWC schools - the *football* schools were the ones that couldn't decide on football expansion. Every single football school in the Big East was looking to bolt after Miami left (and Miami was 100% going to leave if ever invited by the ACC), so separating from the C7 (whether it was in the 1990s or in the 2000s) wouldn't have changed that one iota.

The Big East football league had a terminal illness from day one because (a) Penn State was already in the Big Ten and (b) Miami was always going to be a temporary member if they got back to their 1980s-level of success, which they ultimately did in the early-2000s. It's fashionable for the football fans to blame the "basketball schools", but the football programs only have themselves to blame because *they* were the ones that were always looking for greener pastures.

For people that watched LOST, the Big East is the ultimate example of the "course correction theory" of time travel. You could have gone back in time and changed every single variable and decision during the entire lifespan of the Big East football league, whether it was the Catholic schools splitting off earlier, more football expansion, etc., but the league would have still ultimately ended up in the exact same place as today. (This is the opposite of the butterfly effect theory of time travel a la Back to the Future where any slight change to the past could have massive changes to the future.) Every single other power conference would have poached the Big East in the exact same manner and the league would have been powerless to do anything about it.

Or you could have the effect like in "the butterfly effect" where you have massive changes but ultimately still a bad result.

(02-25-2015 11:36 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(02-25-2015 10:48 AM)goofus Wrote:  100 out of 100? There is no way the decision was that obvious. There were a lot of good reasons to take Missouri. It is a good geographic, cultural, and academic fit. Plus it could have been part of a bridge to Texas. Plus they seem to handle its budget without issues, and its football and basketball teams and facilities were already at a Big Ten level. The east coast moves are more of a long term gamble with potentially a higher payoff, but its not obvious its going to pay off, especially if it ends up alienating too many midwest fans in the conference.

Too many BigTen decision have been devoted to building a brand and tv markets and not about asking existing Big Ten fans what they would have wanted. It could all end up backfiring in the long run.

From the Big Ten president perspective, yes, it was definitely that obvious. Maryland is more highly-rated academically, brings a huge number of TV households between DC and Baltimore, has better recruiting territory for football, basketball and regular students, has a good athletic tradition (even if football has been down lately), and is located directly in one the metro area of one of world's top power centers that also happens to be one of the wealthiest in the country. The population growth is terrible in the Midwest relative to the rest of the country - the LAST thing the Big Ten needed was more Midwestern exposure at that point. Fans may not appreciate it now because they often can't look past who they are playing on-the-field this year, but in 20 to 30 years, we'll see that getting into a region with better demographics than the Midwest was critical to maintaining the Big Ten's success.

Now, we can quibble about whether Rutgers was more desirable than Missouri if they had both been available, but Rutgers brought all of the above off-the-field attributes of Maryland. The one downside to Rutgers was the relative lack of athletic tradition. However, there is absolutely no question in my mind that the Big Ten would take Maryland head-to-head over Missouri every single time.

Finally, the entire Big Ten East plus Northwestern, Illinois, Purdue and Wisconsin all send many more graduates to the NYC and DC areas than they do to the Great Plains. As a result, the East Coast is much more of a "home" area to the majority of Big Ten schools than the western fringes of the conference.

I guess it depends on what you wanted your conference to get out of expansion.

(02-25-2015 11:49 AM)jgkojak Wrote:  The B12 Louisville snub is just plain dumb.

Had they picked Louisville, they stick the ACC with either WVU or UConn (probably UConn).

A Louisville, Cinci, WVU eastern contingent would have made a lot of sense and given them their championship game with 3 Top 30 Football programs (teams Texas and OU can beat but don't hurt their BCS or SOS ratings)

KS doesn't win the B12 basketball 10 years in a row with Pitino in the mix.

This is where I thought the Big 12 was headed. UL, WV, TCU & Cincy/BYU. This would've been nice.

Sent from my VM670 using Tapatalk 2

(02-25-2015 04:58 PM)Lenvillecards Wrote:  

(02-25-2015 11:49 AM)jgkojak Wrote:  The B12 Louisville snub is just plain dumb.

Had they picked Louisville, they stick the ACC with either WVU or UConn (probably UConn).

A Louisville, Cinci, WVU eastern contingent would have made a lot of sense and given them their championship game with 3 Top 30 Football programs (teams Texas and OU can beat but don't hurt their BCS or SOS ratings)

KS doesn't win the B12 basketball 10 years in a row with Pitino in the mix.

This is where I thought the Big 12 was headed. UL, WV, TCU & Cincy/BYU. This would've been nice.

The TV contract was written for 10 members. Any change in that number would have opened the door for a renegotiation - at a reduced rate per school.

So that ruled out more than 10 members.

(02-25-2015 05:45 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  

(02-25-2015 04:58 PM)Lenvillecards Wrote:  

(02-25-2015 11:49 AM)jgkojak Wrote:  The B12 Louisville snub is just plain dumb.

Had they picked Louisville, they stick the ACC with either WVU or UConn (probably UConn).

A Louisville, Cinci, WVU eastern contingent would have made a lot of sense and given them their championship game with 3 Top 30 Football programs (teams Texas and OU can beat but don't hurt their BCS or SOS ratings)

KS doesn't win the B12 basketball 10 years in a row with Pitino in the mix.

This is where I thought the Big 12 was headed. UL, WV, TCU & Cincy/BYU. This would've been nice.

The TV contract was written for 10 members. Any change in that number would have opened the door for a renegotiation - at a reduced rate per school.

So that ruled out more than 10 members.

The TV contract was for a minimum of 10 members. That is why the Big XII had to scramble after A&M and Missouri left. TCU was easily available since it was in the process of moving from the MWC to the BE, and only needed to pay $5 million to the BE. WVU became the tenth school because they were willing to sue the BE and Louisville wasn't. Louisville removed themselves from consideration. They were not snubbed.

The Big XII could have added two more schools or twenty more. EXPN and Fox didn't care. They just wouldn't pay increase the existing contract for additional schools, and the Big XII schools weren't willing to take a smaller slice of the pie.

(02-25-2015 06:07 PM)lew240z Wrote:  

(02-25-2015 05:45 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  

(02-25-2015 04:58 PM)Lenvillecards Wrote:  

(02-25-2015 11:49 AM)jgkojak Wrote:  The B12 Louisville snub is just plain dumb.

Had they picked Louisville, they stick the ACC with either WVU or UConn (probably UConn).

A Louisville, Cinci, WVU eastern contingent would have made a lot of sense and given them their championship game with 3 Top 30 Football programs (teams Texas and OU can beat but don't hurt their BCS or SOS ratings)

KS doesn't win the B12 basketball 10 years in a row with Pitino in the mix.

This is where I thought the Big 12 was headed. UL, WV, TCU & Cincy/BYU. This would've been nice.

The TV contract was written for 10 members. Any change in that number would have opened the door for a renegotiation - at a reduced rate per school.

So that ruled out more than 10 members.

The TV contract was for a minimum of 10 members. That is why the Big XII had to scramble after A&M and Missouri left. TCU was easily available since it was in the process of moving from the MWC to the BE, and only needed to pay $5 million to the BE. WVU became the tenth school because they were willing to sue the BE and Louisville wasn't. Louisville removed themselves from consideration. They were not snubbed.

The Big XII could have added two more schools or twenty more. EXPN and Fox didn't care. They just wouldn't pay increase the existing contract for additional schools, and the Big XII schools weren't willing to take a smaller slice of the pie.

This is the first time that I have heard this.

(02-25-2015 06:07 PM)lew240z Wrote:  

(02-25-2015 05:45 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  

(02-25-2015 04:58 PM)Lenvillecards Wrote:  

(02-25-2015 11:49 AM)jgkojak Wrote:  The B12 Louisville snub is just plain dumb.

Had they picked Louisville, they stick the ACC with either WVU or UConn (probably UConn).

A Louisville, Cinci, WVU eastern contingent would have made a lot of sense and given them their championship game with 3 Top 30 Football programs (teams Texas and OU can beat but don't hurt their BCS or SOS ratings)

KS doesn't win the B12 basketball 10 years in a row with Pitino in the mix.

This is where I thought the Big 12 was headed. UL, WV, TCU & Cincy/BYU. This would've been nice.

The TV contract was written for 10 members. Any change in that number would have opened the door for a renegotiation - at a reduced rate per school.

So that ruled out more than 10 members.

The TV contract was for a minimum of 10 members. That is why the Big XII had to scramble after A&M and Missouri left. TCU was easily available since it was in the process of moving from the MWC to the BE, and only needed to pay $5 million to the BE. WVU became the tenth school because they were willing to sue the BE and Louisville wasn't. Louisville removed themselves from consideration. They were not snubbed.

The Big XII could have added two more schools or twenty more. EXPN and Fox didn't care. They just wouldn't pay increase the existing contract for additional schools, and the Big XII schools weren't willing to take a smaller slice of the pie.

That's the nonsense UL fans say to make themselves feel better. The ethical school that hired Pitino and Petrino?

They were lobbying just as hard as WVU. They just don't have the history or appeal in football, so they finished 2nd and the networks wouldn't pay a full share for a #11.

(02-25-2015 07:04 PM)cuseroc Wrote:  

(02-25-2015 06:07 PM)lew240z Wrote:  

(02-25-2015 05:45 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  

(02-25-2015 04:58 PM)Lenvillecards Wrote:  

(02-25-2015 11:49 AM)jgkojak Wrote:  The B12 Louisville snub is just plain dumb.

Had they picked Louisville, they stick the ACC with either WVU or UConn (probably UConn).

A Louisville, Cinci, WVU eastern contingent would have made a lot of sense and given them their championship game with 3 Top 30 Football programs (teams Texas and OU can beat but don't hurt their BCS or SOS ratings)

KS doesn't win the B12 basketball 10 years in a row with Pitino in the mix.

This is where I thought the Big 12 was headed. UL, WV, TCU & Cincy/BYU. This would've been nice.

The TV contract was written for 10 members. Any change in that number would have opened the door for a renegotiation - at a reduced rate per school.

So that ruled out more than 10 members.

The TV contract was for a minimum of 10 members. That is why the Big XII had to scramble after A&M and Missouri left. TCU was easily available since it was in the process of moving from the MWC to the BE, and only needed to pay $5 million to the BE. WVU became the tenth school because they were willing to sue the BE and Louisville wasn't. Louisville removed themselves from consideration. They were not snubbed.

The Big XII could have added two more schools or twenty more. EXPN and Fox didn't care. They just wouldn't pay increase the existing contract for additional schools, and the Big XII schools weren't willing to take a smaller slice of the pie.

This is the first time that I have heard this.

Me to. They may have been looking for a better way of doing it but there is no way that I see Louisville turning down a Big 12 invite. It's possible but doubtful. There was speculation among fans that since the invite was so long in coming that Jurich turned it down but....

Sent from my VM670 using Tapatalk 2

(02-25-2015 07:29 PM)Lenvillecards Wrote:  

(02-25-2015 07:04 PM)cuseroc Wrote:  

(02-25-2015 06:07 PM)lew240z Wrote:  

(02-25-2015 05:45 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  

(02-25-2015 04:58 PM)Lenvillecards Wrote:  This is where I thought the Big 12 was headed. UL, WV, TCU & Cincy/BYU. This would've been nice.

The TV contract was written for 10 members. Any change in that number would have opened the door for a renegotiation - at a reduced rate per school.

So that ruled out more than 10 members.

The TV contract was for a minimum of 10 members. That is why the Big XII had to scramble after A&M and Missouri left. TCU was easily available since it was in the process of moving from the MWC to the BE, and only needed to pay $5 million to the BE. WVU became the tenth school because they were willing to sue the BE and Louisville wasn't. Louisville removed themselves from consideration. They were not snubbed.

The Big XII could have added two more schools or twenty more. EXPN and Fox didn't care. They just wouldn't pay increase the existing contract for additional schools, and the Big XII schools weren't willing to take a smaller slice of the pie.

This is the first time that I have heard this.

Me to. They may have been looking for a better way of doing it but there is no way that I see Louisville turning down a Big 12 invite. It's possible but doubtful. There was speculation among fans that since the invite was so long in coming that Jurich turned it down but....

Sent from my VM670 using Tapatalk 2

Jurich did a remarkable job at Louisville. He didn't do it by saying no we can't do that. He's not an idiot. He knew the potential consequences. They would still be in the AAC if the B1G hadn't expanded to 14.