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Freshman Ineligibility Threatens SEC Football Dominance (LINK)
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CardinalJim Offline
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Post: #1
Freshman Ineligibility Threatens SEC Football Dominance (LINK)
From the article:

"The Big 10 and Pac-12 want freshman ineligibility. They claim only to want to examine the issue, but when was the last time you examined something you didn’t want?
Their motives seem noble. Re-emphasizing the student in the “student-athlete” equation. De-escalating the increasing “professionalism” of college sports. Providing a buffer year for student-athletes to transition to college life.
Iowa coach Kirk Ferentz told ESPN that this rule change “would be one of the healthiest things we could do for college sports right now.”
I’ll take them at their word, although I have a feeling something more sinister is also at play."

Sports Day - Chadd Scott

The Big 10 and Pac-12 are trying to cut the legs out from under the SEC football monster.
02-23-2015 08:57 AM
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UConn-SMU Offline
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RE: Freshman Ineligibility Threatens SEC Football Dominance (LINK)
Kentucky would have to shut down the BB program.
02-23-2015 09:08 AM
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CardFan1 Offline
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RE: Freshman Ineligibility Threatens SEC Football Dominance (LINK)
The problem with Freshman ineligibility rule though is now You might bring back Freshmen Basketball teams that usually had 11 players and traveled on a schedule very similar to the Varsity teams. So now You've double downed on travel an Lodging expenses at least if using the same Pre 1974 rules were. Are we also back to having 120 players on scholarship like it was in those days for football where the USC's, Texas's UCLA's, Kentucky's of the World just Over reloaded every year in football and basketball leaving other schools short handed or under talented ? These issues need to be also addressed.
02-23-2015 09:16 AM
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hawghiggs Offline
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RE: Freshman Ineligibility Threatens SEC Football Dominance (LINK)
Will this hurt some SEC members? Sure. But if you think that Arkansas, Missouri, Kentucky(football),and the Mississippi schools are against this. Then you've lost your dang mind. This doesn't hurt us one bit. This evens the playing field everywhere. This works against the Ohio state, and Alabama's of the world.

Now I do wonder if they will move the number of total scholarships to 100 from 85.
02-23-2015 09:30 AM
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bullet Offline
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RE: Freshman Ineligibility Threatens SEC Football Dominance (LINK)
(02-23-2015 09:30 AM)hawghiggs Wrote:  Will this hurt some SEC members? Sure. But if you think that Arkansas, Missouri, Kentucky(football),and the Mississippi schools are against this. Then you've lost your dang mind. This doesn't hurt us one bit. This evens the playing field everywhere. This works against the Ohio state, and Alabama's of the world.

Now I do wonder if they will move the number of total scholarships to 100 from 85.

This would not change anything on football scholarship needs. Most freshman redshirt. Very few play double digit numbers of freshman. It would just mean some less talented sophomores and juniors play. Maybe fewer seniors get forced out.

Basketball would be difficult with only 13 players. They would need to go to 15, which is what the women's teams have.
02-23-2015 09:33 AM
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MWC Tex Offline
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Post: #6
RE: Freshman Ineligibility Threatens SEC Football Dominance (LINK)
(02-23-2015 09:30 AM)hawghiggs Wrote:  Will this hurt some SEC members? Sure. But if you think that Arkansas, Missouri, Kentucky(football),and the Mississippi schools are against this. Then you've lost your dang mind. This doesn't hurt us one bit. This evens the playing field everywhere. This works against the Ohio state, and Alabama's of the world.

Now I do wonder if they will move the number of total scholarships to 100 from 85.

No, they won't change the scholarship.
1. It is a separate issue.
2. There is a large majority of freshmen that redshirt anyway.

This is applying more to the basketball side than the football side of things.
(This post was last modified: 02-23-2015 09:35 AM by MWC Tex.)
02-23-2015 09:34 AM
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hawghiggs Offline
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Post: #7
RE: Freshman Ineligibility Threatens SEC Football Dominance (LINK)
(02-23-2015 09:34 AM)MWC Tex Wrote:  
(02-23-2015 09:30 AM)hawghiggs Wrote:  Will this hurt some SEC members? Sure. But if you think that Arkansas, Missouri, Kentucky(football),and the Mississippi schools are against this. Then you've lost your dang mind. This doesn't hurt us one bit. This evens the playing field everywhere. This works against the Ohio state, and Alabama's of the world.

Now I do wonder if they will move the number of total scholarships to 100 from 85.

No, they won't change the scholarship.
1. It is a separate issue.
2. There is a large majority of freshmen that redshirt anyway.

This is applying more to the basketball side than the football side of things.
Why is it a separate issue? I agree that the large majority of freshmen redshirt. But some fill much needed roles. Why shouldn't a university be able to fill those needs?
02-23-2015 09:49 AM
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ken d Online
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RE: Freshman Ineligibility Threatens SEC Football Dominance (LINK)
While it is true than many, if not most, freshman football players redshirt, that is not necessarily true at the very elite programs. Five star players, and even many four star players, are less likely to redshirt because they generally have every intention of leaving for the NFL after three years. There is little incentive for them to preserve a year of eligibility they don't think they will ever use.

A coach might want to redshirt one of them if he is already stacked at that player's position. But if that kid gives him a better chance of winning now, he's going to play.

So it isn't necessarily the SEC per se that is threatened. It is the teams with the most four and five star players. Right now, there are more SEC teams that fit that description than other leagues. But the Florida States, Clemsons, USCs, Notre Dames, Ohio States, etc. will find they have lost a little of their advantage as well.
02-23-2015 09:53 AM
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Post: #9
RE: Freshman Ineligibility Threatens SEC Football Dominance (LINK)
Does freshman ineligibility mean that:
A) Freshman don't play or practice
b) Freshman practice but don't play
c) There is a seperate freshman team that plays and practices

If it is B or C this is all a bunch of BS that has nothing to do with "helping" student athletes. Certainly in football the actual games are the least of the time the players send doing non-academic related things. Basketball might be different since there is more travely involved, which would also be the case with every other sport besides football.
02-23-2015 09:59 AM
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domer1978 Online
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RE: Freshman Ineligibility Threatens SEC Football Dominance (LINK)
(02-23-2015 09:53 AM)ken d Wrote:  While it is true than many, if not most, freshman football players redshirt, that is not necessarily true at the very elite programs. Five star players, and even many four star players, are less likely to redshirt because they generally have every intention of leaving for the NFL after three years. There is little incentive for them to preserve a year of eligibility they don't think they will ever use.

A coach might want to redshirt one of them if he is already stacked at that player's position. But if that kid gives him a better chance of winning now, he's going to play.

So it isn't necessarily the SEC per se that is threatened. It is the teams with the most four and five star players. Right now, there are more SEC teams that fit that description than other leagues. But the Florida States, Clemsons, USCs, Notre Dames, Ohio States, etc. will find they have lost a little of their advantage as well.

This will hurt a bit because we used quite a few freshman(Usually do under Kelly).
02-23-2015 09:59 AM
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ken d Online
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RE: Freshman Ineligibility Threatens SEC Football Dominance (LINK)
(02-23-2015 09:16 AM)CardFan1 Wrote:  The problem with Freshman ineligibility rule though is now You might bring back Freshmen Basketball teams that usually had 11 players and traveled on a schedule very similar to the Varsity teams. So now You've double downed on travel an Lodging expenses at least if using the same Pre 1974 rules were. Are we also back to having 120 players on scholarship like it was in those days for football where the USC's, Texas's UCLA's, Kentucky's of the World just Over reloaded every year in football and basketball leaving other schools short handed or under talented ? These issues need to be also addressed.

You are right. If you just return to freshman, or JV, teams that travel you haven't accomplished much. A simple fix for that, though, is just not to allow those things by rule.
02-23-2015 10:05 AM
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ken d Online
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RE: Freshman Ineligibility Threatens SEC Football Dominance (LINK)
(02-23-2015 09:08 AM)UConn-SMU Wrote:  Kentucky would have to shut down the BB program.

Kentucky was great long before freshmen were eligible, and there is no reason to assume they would not be in the future.
02-23-2015 10:07 AM
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CardFan1 Offline
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Post: #13
RE: Freshman Ineligibility Threatens SEC Football Dominance (LINK)
(02-23-2015 10:07 AM)ken d Wrote:  
(02-23-2015 09:08 AM)UConn-SMU Wrote:  Kentucky would have to shut down the BB program.

Kentucky was great long before freshmen were eligible, and there is no reason to assume they would not be in the future.

They had Freshmen classes just like today's and played all season together as a Super five Freshmen class destroying other Freshmen teams that They faced. Only UCLA had similar annual Freshmen classes throughout the Late '60's and Early '70's and really got good from '75 - '78
02-23-2015 10:38 AM
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ken d Online
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RE: Freshman Ineligibility Threatens SEC Football Dominance (LINK)
This thread, which is supposed to be about football, has quickly turned to basketball. And with good reason. While leaders in the Big Ten, PAC and ACC framed this issue as being about academic preparedness, we all know that is purely a smokescreen. And not even a good one at that.

This suggestion has one purpose, and one purpose only. To pressure the NBA to change its one and done rule. When people suggest alternatives to one and done, many point to the baseball model, in which players are committed to three years once they enter college. Football players are already committed to three years as well.

Freshman ineligibility would have only minimal impact, if any, on football players. With five or six away games a year during the fall semester, most of them on Saturdays, there's not a lot of lost class time. These athletes are going to spend as much time practicing and conditioning during that freshman year even if they are ineligible to play in a game. Football was only included in the conversation to avoid the obvious - men's basketball is the target.

And if academics is the issue, why just men's basketball? Why not women? Do they not have the same length season, play as many games, travel as much, miss as much class time? Or is it just that they have less incentive to leave school early?

I believe if the NBA were simply to agree to not draft players until they were out of high school for two years instead of one, all this would go away. And that simple act would expose the hypocrisy of the NCAA and its D-I schools. Because it it were to happen, and the NCAA dropped its efforts to make freshmen ineligible, it would demonstrate perfectly that academics never had anything to do with this.

The NCAA's beef is with the NBA. If they were to simply say that they want to make freshmen inevitable for no reason other than to prevent the NBA from using the NCAA as a free farm system, and from getting free publicity to promote their stars of the future, I would be fine with that. Just don't try to sell me the "it's all about acclimating academically and socially" nonsense. I'm not buying it.
02-23-2015 11:05 AM
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RE: Freshman Ineligibility Threatens SEC Football Dominance (LINK)
(02-23-2015 10:07 AM)ken d Wrote:  
(02-23-2015 09:08 AM)UConn-SMU Wrote:  Kentucky would have to shut down the BB program.

Kentucky was great long before freshmen were eligible, and there is no reason to assume they would not be in the future.

I was using hyperbole. Kentucky has always been a great program. But it would be fun to see their one-and-done system come crashing down.
02-23-2015 11:28 AM
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RE: Freshman Ineligibility Threatens SEC Football Dominance (LINK)
Being a former athlete I just find this whole issue racist, sexist, and everything in between. This literally targets young male athletes an no one else.

Will this also apply to Volleyball, softball, women's tennis, track, swimming, golf, lacrosse, cross country, and every other sport?

This is about nothing more than trying to force star male basketball players to stay in school for another year so the school can benefit of the money they generate. It's sickening that people are trying to justify this crap.
02-23-2015 11:40 AM
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ken d Online
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RE: Freshman Ineligibility Threatens SEC Football Dominance (LINK)
A question for the attorneys among us.

It seems to me that the LOI an athlete signs is a formal, legally binding contract between the athlete and the school. Is there any reason why that contract could not be modified to include a non-compete agreement similar to what you see in many employment contracts?

Right now, the presumption seems to be that schools are only competing with other schools, and limitations are imposed regarding transfers between schools. Why couldn't that presumption be expanded to include the NBA? I'm sure if you were to include foreign pro teams and the D-League that would be considered too broad. But if you just include the US entertainment market, couldn't you make a case that the NBA competition is direct and significant?

Could a modified LOI cover a relatively short time (say 2-3 years) in exchange for the school's commitment for an equally long time?
02-23-2015 11:55 AM
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Post: #18
RE: Freshman Ineligibility Threatens SEC Football Dominance (LINK)
(02-23-2015 10:05 AM)ken d Wrote:  
(02-23-2015 09:16 AM)CardFan1 Wrote:  The problem with Freshman ineligibility rule though is now You might bring back Freshmen Basketball teams that usually had 11 players and traveled on a schedule very similar to the Varsity teams. So now You've double downed on travel an Lodging expenses at least if using the same Pre 1974 rules were. Are we also back to having 120 players on scholarship like it was in those days for football where the USC's, Texas's UCLA's, Kentucky's of the World just Over reloaded every year in football and basketball leaving other schools short handed or under talented ? These issues need to be also addressed.

You are right. If you just return to freshman, or JV, teams that travel you haven't accomplished much. A simple fix for that, though, is just not to allow those things by rule.

Then you are talking about an additional rule change because JV teams are currently allowed.

http://www.gamecocksonline.com/sports/m-...03aab.html

http://www.rolltide.com/sports/m-footbl/...02aaa.html
02-23-2015 12:04 PM
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RE: Freshman Ineligibility Threatens SEC Football Dominance (LINK)
Terrible idea. Back when scholarship numbers were much higher it may have been a good idea. With only 85 scholarships it would diminish the quality of college football. My team would have been forced to play walkons and move players from other positions to play DT this last season if this rule had been in place. Due to the death of a player and coaching changes, we were left with only 2 scholarship DTs in the spring and had to rely on freshmen, walkons and DEs to fill the roster at DT.

The coaches and trainers are perfectly capable of evaluating which players are capable of playing early. They are also capable of having the discussion with the players about their playing time as a freshman.

When you hear commissioners and the like use academics as the reason for a proposal you can almost guarantee that it has nothing to do with academics. Just like the attempts to slow down the hurry up offenses, most rules are proposed to alter the competitive balance in someone's favor at the expense of someone else.
02-23-2015 12:13 PM
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MWC Tex Offline
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RE: Freshman Ineligibility Threatens SEC Football Dominance (LINK)
(02-23-2015 09:49 AM)hawghiggs Wrote:  
(02-23-2015 09:34 AM)MWC Tex Wrote:  
(02-23-2015 09:30 AM)hawghiggs Wrote:  Will this hurt some SEC members? Sure. But if you think that Arkansas, Missouri, Kentucky(football),and the Mississippi schools are against this. Then you've lost your dang mind. This doesn't hurt us one bit. This evens the playing field everywhere. This works against the Ohio state, and Alabama's of the world.

Now I do wonder if they will move the number of total scholarships to 100 from 85.

No, they won't change the scholarship.
1. It is a separate issue.
2. There is a large majority of freshmen that redshirt anyway.

This is applying more to the basketball side than the football side of things.
Why is it a separate issue? I agree that the large majority of freshmen redshirt. But some fill much needed roles. Why shouldn't a university be able to fill those needs?

Scholarships are a separate issue because it involves the whole NCAA. In addition, no other conference will go along with this if there was a scholarship increase....you will probably find that even the lower P5 schools would not be wanting to offer it, especially now that COA and the other benefits for scholarship athletes would put those costs much higher.
(This post was last modified: 02-23-2015 01:18 PM by MWC Tex.)
02-23-2015 01:17 PM
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