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Obama wants to fight ISIS with a ............job's program.
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NIU007 Offline
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Post: #81
RE: Obama wants to fight ISIS with a ............job's program.
(02-23-2015 04:32 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(02-23-2015 04:26 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  I already did Owl...the stimulus improved the economy. Of course, as usual, you deny the facts and say otherwise.

How and why?

If you compare 2009-2010 with other post-recession periods, there's a strong argument that we did WORSE with the "stimulus" than in other recessions without one. That does not indicate that the stimulus improved the economy.

The economy started improving before the "stimulus" had time to have any meaningful impact, in fact before the "stimulus" was even enacted.

What would the recovery have looked like without the "stimulus"? To prove that the "stimulus" improved the economy, you have to prove that the economy would have done worse without it. The evidence doesn't say that.

One could argue that even the discussion of a stimulus package could affect the economy, in terms of consumer or business confidence. In that case the effect could be felt before the actual proposals were put in place.
02-23-2015 05:16 PM
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Paul M Offline
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Post: #82
RE: Obama wants to fight ISIS with a ............job's program.
(02-23-2015 04:42 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Scores on that performance?

9.9
9.8
9.9
10
9.7

Again...beyond belief that you expect anyone to prove what the economy would have done had something not been done. It's asinine beyond belief.

YOU CAN'T PROVE WHAT THE ECONOMY WOULD HAVE DONE HAD WE NOT PASSED THE STIMULUS. IT'S NOT POSSIBLE!

And yet we know what effect it did have by passing it and some still insist in claiming it was a good thing.
02-23-2015 05:19 PM
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NIU007 Offline
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Post: #83
RE: Obama wants to fight ISIS with a ............job's program.
(02-23-2015 05:19 PM)Paul M Wrote:  
(02-23-2015 04:42 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Scores on that performance?

9.9
9.8
9.9
10
9.7

Again...beyond belief that you expect anyone to prove what the economy would have done had something not been done. It's asinine beyond belief.

YOU CAN'T PROVE WHAT THE ECONOMY WOULD HAVE DONE HAD WE NOT PASSED THE STIMULUS. IT'S NOT POSSIBLE!

And yet we know what effect it did have by passing it and some still insist in claiming it was a good thing.

It's possible it was a good thing, since we don't know what would have happened without it.
02-23-2015 05:22 PM
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Paul M Offline
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Post: #84
RE: Obama wants to fight ISIS with a ............job's program.
Odds are the same thing that happened without stimulus coming out of previous recessions.
02-23-2015 05:29 PM
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NIU007 Offline
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Post: #85
RE: Obama wants to fight ISIS with a ............job's program.
(02-23-2015 05:29 PM)Paul M Wrote:  Odds are the same thing that happened without stimulus coming out of previous recessions.

Maybe, but people had an awful lot of debt. That takes a long time to work through. It's not like the stock market crash in 2001 where people lost money in the market but still had their house, and job for the most part.
02-23-2015 05:34 PM
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UCF08 Offline
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Post: #86
RE: Obama wants to fight ISIS with a ............job's program.
(02-23-2015 05:29 PM)Paul M Wrote:  Odds are the same thing that happened without stimulus coming out of previous recessions.

Odds are you have no idea what the odds are this is the case, the most recent recession was a different beast than most of those prior.
02-23-2015 06:28 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Online
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Post: #87
RE: Obama wants to fight ISIS with a ............job's program.
(02-23-2015 04:42 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Scores on that performance?
9.9
9.8
9.9
10
9.7
Again...beyond belief that you expect anyone to prove what the economy would have done had something not been done. It's asinine beyond belief.
YOU CAN'T PROVE WHAT THE ECONOMY WOULD HAVE DONE HAD WE NOT PASSED THE STIMULUS. IT'S NOT POSSIBLE!

And therefore you can't prove that the stimulus made things better than they would have been without it.
02-23-2015 06:52 PM
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EagleRockCafe Offline
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Post: #88
RE: Obama wants to fight ISIS with a ............job's program.
Printing money nonstop is not an economic plan....
02-23-2015 06:54 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Online
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Post: #89
RE: Obama wants to fight ISIS with a ............job's program.
(02-23-2015 05:22 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  It's possible it was a good thing, since we don't know what would have happened without it.

And applying that logic, equally possible that it wasn't.

Truth be known, we can never say whether any policy was good or bad without knowing what the result of a different policy would have been. And we can never know that.
(This post was last modified: 02-23-2015 07:02 PM by Owl 69/70/75.)
02-23-2015 07:01 PM
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Fo Shizzle Offline
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Post: #90
RE: Obama wants to fight ISIS with a ............job's program.
I have a good job for them. Digging graves for their comrades.
02-23-2015 08:36 PM
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Redwingtom Offline
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Post: #91
RE: Obama wants to fight ISIS with a ............job's program.
(02-23-2015 06:52 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(02-23-2015 04:42 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Scores on that performance?
9.9
9.8
9.9
10
9.7
Again...beyond belief that you expect anyone to prove what the economy would have done had something not been done. It's asinine beyond belief.
YOU CAN'T PROVE WHAT THE ECONOMY WOULD HAVE DONE HAD WE NOT PASSED THE STIMULUS. IT'S NOT POSSIBLE!

And therefore you can't prove that the stimulus made things better than they would have been without it.

Of course, BUT I NEVER MADE THAT CLAIM! It IS a fact however, that after the stimulus, things improved. And more economists than not, as far as I've seen, credit the stimulus for some of the improvement.
02-24-2015 10:01 AM
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Paul M Offline
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Post: #92
RE: Obama wants to fight ISIS with a ............job's program.
Worst recovery of my life. Thank you stimuless.
02-24-2015 10:39 AM
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CardFan1 Offline
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Post: #93
RE: Obama wants to fight ISIS with a ............job's program.
(02-24-2015 10:01 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(02-23-2015 06:52 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(02-23-2015 04:42 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Scores on that performance?
9.9
9.8
9.9
10
9.7
Again...beyond belief that you expect anyone to prove what the economy would have done had something not been done. It's asinine beyond belief.
YOU CAN'T PROVE WHAT THE ECONOMY WOULD HAVE DONE HAD WE NOT PASSED THE STIMULUS. IT'S NOT POSSIBLE!

And therefore you can't prove that the stimulus made things better than they would have been without it.

Of course, BUT I NEVER MADE THAT CLAIM! It IS a fact however, that after the stimulus, things improved. And more economists than not, as far as I've seen, credit the stimulus for some of the improvement.

http://www.againstcronycapitalism.org/20...ss-people/

http://business.time.com/2010/09/14/was-...a-clunker/

This one highly questionable and drove way up used car prices and spare parts. and i think a lot of Dealers never got paid from old reports and didn't folks getting these discounts later have to pay tax on the discounts ?


This one seemed to help but Tax Credit was actually a loan instead.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/e...story.html
(This post was last modified: 02-24-2015 10:44 AM by CardFan1.)
02-24-2015 10:40 AM
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Owl 69/70/75 Online
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Post: #94
RE: Obama wants to fight ISIS with a ............job's program.
(02-24-2015 10:01 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(02-23-2015 06:52 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(02-23-2015 04:42 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Scores on that performance?
9.9
9.8
9.9
10
9.7
Again...beyond belief that you expect anyone to prove what the economy would have done had something not been done. It's asinine beyond belief.
YOU CAN'T PROVE WHAT THE ECONOMY WOULD HAVE DONE HAD WE NOT PASSED THE STIMULUS. IT'S NOT POSSIBLE!
And therefore you can't prove that the stimulus made things better than they would have been without it.
Of course, BUT I NEVER MADE THAT CLAIM!

Ummm, yes you did.

(02-23-2015 04:26 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  I already did Owl...the stimulus improved the economy. Of course, as usual, you deny the facts and say otherwise.
02-25-2015 11:56 AM
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UCF08 Offline
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Post: #95
RE: Obama wants to fight ISIS with a ............job's program.
(02-25-2015 11:56 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(02-24-2015 10:01 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(02-23-2015 06:52 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(02-23-2015 04:42 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Scores on that performance?
9.9
9.8
9.9
10
9.7
Again...beyond belief that you expect anyone to prove what the economy would have done had something not been done. It's asinine beyond belief.
YOU CAN'T PROVE WHAT THE ECONOMY WOULD HAVE DONE HAD WE NOT PASSED THE STIMULUS. IT'S NOT POSSIBLE!
And therefore you can't prove that the stimulus made things better than they would have been without it.
Of course, BUT I NEVER MADE THAT CLAIM!

Ummm, yes you did.

(02-23-2015 04:26 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  I already did Owl...the stimulus improved the economy. Of course, as usual, you deny the facts and say otherwise.

You can certainly point to relative growth as an 'improvement' in the economy while also admitting that it's impossible to prove that these policies led to a better outcome than they would have had without them.
02-25-2015 05:02 PM
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NIU007 Offline
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Post: #96
RE: Obama wants to fight ISIS with a ............job's program.
(02-23-2015 07:01 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(02-23-2015 05:22 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  It's possible it was a good thing, since we don't know what would have happened without it.

And applying that logic, equally possible that it wasn't.

Truth be known, we can never say whether any policy was good or bad without knowing what the result of a different policy would have been. And we can never know that.

True. Well, we don't even know if it was "equally" possible. We just know that it's possible.
02-25-2015 05:12 PM
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stinkfist Offline
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Post: #97
RE: Obama wants to fight ISIS with a ............job's program.
(02-23-2015 03:36 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(02-23-2015 10:12 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(02-23-2015 10:10 AM)Fitbud Wrote:  
(02-21-2015 04:42 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(02-20-2015 03:22 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Perhaps it's time to crawl out from under that mushroom?
[Image: DPCCPrivateSectorPayroll020615.png]
That graphic shows basically two things:
1) The recession bottomed out about the time that Obama took office, and recovery was underway before any of Obama's policies had time to take effect.
2) The recovery has been remarkably weak, compared to other recessions.
But you do recognize that the economy is improving which puts you head and shoulders above most Obama haters.
Yeah...but he'll refuse to give Obama an ounce of credit.

Because he doesn't deserve any. Compare the graphic to a similar graphic for most any other recession, and you'll see much more rapid growth coming out of the other recession, essentially the period equivalent to the 2009-2010 time frame. That's the part that Obama can claim. People were reluctant to invest during that time frame, because of fears about how far Obama would go with his redistributionist agenda. When republicans took over the house, it put a damper on that. Some investor confidence was restored by the expectation that the really crazy extremist stuff would not happen.

And I wouldn't really say the economy is improving. What happened is that we hit bottom and stayed there. We haven't gone lower, which is a good thing, but we haven't had anything that looks like a recovery by any historical standard.

Now I know the neo-Keynesians don't buy this, because they see the economy in demand terms only, and don't appreciate the role of investment in growing an economy. But I think it fits.

where it gets really interesting is looking at comparatives relative to the progression in time, technology, and overall population....and that would be 0'day....
02-25-2015 05:47 PM
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QuestionSocratic Offline
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Post: #98
RE: Obama wants to fight ISIS with a ............job's program.
02-27-2015 09:28 AM
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