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Newtown Panel: All guns should be registered, all ammo serial numbered
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NIU007 Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Newtown Panel: All guns should be registered, all ammo serial numbered
(02-13-2015 03:42 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  
(02-13-2015 03:33 PM)I45owl Wrote:  
(02-13-2015 03:05 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  No, but it does make it possible to know where they came from, and target that source.

But, how is that interesting? Is there really a rash of people selling bullets that are prohibited from doing so? AFAIK, this is a solution to a problem that does not exist. (Wiki only lists two real restrictions on sale of gun ammunition, and neither apply here... see below).

What it does do is make manufacturing bullets more expensive and, in turn, purchasing them more expensive, and it could possibly put a limit on production.

It makes it possible to track who sold the bullets, but what value is that? The only case I can conceive is in order to make manufacturers and distributors liable for their ultimate use. This points in the direction of using the dual track of regulation and tort law as a form of de-facto prohibition. I suspect - probably for good reason - that this is the ultimate goal of people that drafted this idea, and they are pushing it in order to achieve the goal of prohibition by deceptive means.

--------------------------------

Gun law in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_law_in_...Ammunition Wrote:Ammunition[edit] As with firearms, shipments of ammunition must be accompanied by a written notice of the shipment's contents. It is unlawful for any licensed importer, dealer, manufacturer, or collector to transfer shotgun or rifle ammunition to anyone under the age of 18, or to transfer handgun ammunition to anyone under the age of 21.
It is illegal to commercially manufacture or commercially import armor-piercing handgun ammunition as described in 18 U.S.C. chapter 44 §921 definitions (part 21). It is also illegal for federally licensed dealers to sell armor piercing handgun ammunition to anyone other than the government or law enforcement without keeping detailed records, or unless that dealer has a class 10 or 11 FFL and sells to another class 10 or class 11 FFL license holder as described in 18 U.S.C. chapter 44 §922 (b). Civilians in most states can legally possess pistol-caliber armor piercing ammunition. Only CA, IL, TX, KY, NJ, RI, FL, and Washington D.C. have laws restricting the use of such ammunition.

I'm not making any claim on it's usefulness or logical veracity given the evidence as it currently is, just refuting the sentiment of "OH IT'S COMPLETELY USELESS" that is plain wrong. Maybe it's not very useful, but to act like we can't gain useful information because an attack already occurred somehow forgets that perhaps we us it to prevent future ones.

+1
02-13-2015 03:48 PM
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I45owl Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Newtown Panel: All guns should be registered, all ammo serial numbered
(02-13-2015 03:42 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  I'm not making any claim on it's usefulness or logical veracity given the evidence as it currently is, just refuting the sentiment of "OH IT'S COMPLETELY USELESS" that is plain wrong. Maybe it's not very useful, but to act like we can't gain useful information because an attack already occurred somehow forgets that perhaps we us it to prevent future ones.

I think there are three reasonable positions to take (reasonable, but not all honest):
  • creating such a requirement is completely useless, therefore it should not be done
  • creating such a requirement is a dishonest attempt to outlaw guns, therefore it should not be done
  • creating such a requirement is a dishonest attempt to outlaw guns, therefore it should be done


... and one unreasonable position to take:
  • we should create such a requirement and the associated expenses even though it is mostly useless, and we can't even articulate a good reason for having the data much less the cost-benefit in creating it

If you concede it's not very useful, why advocate it? We already know where people buy ammunition. At stores that sell them. What difference does it make which one?

Being able to track ammunition might help catch the DC sniper. But it would be absolutely, completely, unequivocally worthless in a mass shooting where experience tells us that we always identify the shooter before the blood dries.

I say might help, because if this became law, people would press their own ammunition, making the system unequivocally, absolutely, completely worthless.

[Image: Reload-Your-Own-Ammo.jpg?ac5903]
02-13-2015 06:22 PM
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Kaplony Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Newtown Panel: All guns should be registered, all ammo serial numbered
(02-13-2015 03:42 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  Ok, these criminals have guns. I'm told, they'll always have guns. Where do they get them? I for one, would like to know.

In Lanza's case he stole then from his mother, who he had killed while she was in bed.

But in just about any part of the country if you want something and have enough money you can get just about anything you want.
02-13-2015 06:38 PM
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South Carolina Duke Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Newtown Panel: All guns should be registered, all ammo serial numbered
So all those in favor of marking the ammunition, please answer this question. If I commit a crime and execute a few people as a part of the bank robbery, and there is no other evidence, ( video tape, finger prints, DNA) how will the markings on the cartridges/casings assist the authorities in apprehending me on the use of the .38 Special? I am really interested in hearing from UCF08...
02-13-2015 06:48 PM
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UCF08 Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Newtown Panel: All guns should be registered, all ammo serial numbered
(02-13-2015 06:48 PM)South Carolina Duke Wrote:  So all those in favor of marking the ammunition, please answer this question. If I commit a crime and execute a few people as a part of the bank robbery, and there is no other evidence, ( video tape, finger prints, DNA) how will the markings on the cartridges/casings assist the authorities in apprehending me on the use of the .38 Special? I am really interested in hearing from UCF08...

I have no idea, but I'm not proposing this, only shooting down poorly thought out responses. I don't know if serial ammo being numbered will help, the chance that people will just start making their own ammo is certainly there, but I don't know if the average criminal trying to rob another drug dealer (the majority of murders) will go to the trouble. Cost of doing so is certainly an issue, but I can think of dozens of things that have serial numbers which don't cause excessive costs so I don't think a knee-jerk 'NO!' is necessarily in order.

As for your example, I'm not sure if that would result in a conviction, but it would be a lot more likely than if they didn't have serial numbers. And, with the questionable veracity of so many witnesses who often inaccurately report what occurred, any point of objective evidence is probably for the best. But I don't have the time nor the motivation to know whether their proposal stands up to serious scrutiny.
02-13-2015 07:05 PM
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South Carolina Duke Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Newtown Panel: All guns should be registered, all ammo serial numbered
To address your point regarding the street thugs shooting each other in Chicago each week, it will have zero affect. Unless they can identify an individual purchasing ammo in bulk and then breaking the allotment down into smaller amounts and selling it to individuals on the street. But hey there is nothing illegal about that. Now if said "bulk purchaser" is in some type of illicit dealings then and only then could this lead to some other type of indictment. This will achieve no arrests on the streets!!

So that I am clear, you have no answer to how this added production measure and cost can solve the hypothetical scenario with me and my crime spree? I mean this was your question originally correct? You are the only intelligent condescending d-bag on this board,..right?
(This post was last modified: 02-13-2015 07:17 PM by South Carolina Duke.)
02-13-2015 07:15 PM
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UCF08 Offline
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Post: #27
RE: Newtown Panel: All guns should be registered, all ammo serial numbered
(02-13-2015 07:15 PM)South Carolina Duke Wrote:  So that I am clear, you have no answer to how this added production measure and cost can solve the hypothetical scenario with me and my crime spree? I mean this was your question originally correct? You are the only intelligent condescending d-bag on this board,..right?

That you can create a hypothetical situation in which this doesn't help isn't evidence that it's useless. That's like arguing against cars being safer than motorcycles because you can drown easier in a car, it's nonsense because that only represents a minute portion of all automotive fatalities. A single hypothetical doesn't mean much unless I'm claiming it would help in every scenario, which is something I have absolutely not stated.
02-13-2015 07:26 PM
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Kaplony Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Newtown Panel: All guns should be registered, all ammo serial numbered
(02-13-2015 07:05 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  I have no idea, but I'm not proposing this, only shooting down poorly thought out responses. I don't know if serial ammo being numbered will help, the chance that people will just start making their own ammo is certainly there, but I don't know if the average criminal trying to rob another drug dealer (the majority of murders) will go to the trouble.

It's actually not much trouble at all, and once you do it a few times you can make a couple hundred rounds in no time.

Even if you cast your own bullets you aren't looking at something so labor intensive to prevent it.

That said, all this will probably do is create a clandestine bullet manufacturing industry. Wouldn't be a whole lot of overhead and even as small of a group of people as 5 or less can press out a lot of ammunition in a week's time and make a pretty decent profit.


Quote:Cost of doing so is certainly an issue, but I can think of dozens of things that have serial numbers which don't cause excessive costs so I don't think a knee-jerk 'NO!' is necessarily in order.
But how many things with serial numbers are as small as bullets and have to be done in such a way as to remain legible after the bullet strikes whatever target it is shot at? We are talking precision stamping or laser engraving, neither one is cheap when you are talking about something this detailed.

And that's just covering the bullet....we haven't even got to the administration part. It's going to cost everyone from the manufacturer to the distributor to the merchant to compile the paperwork to be able to track the ammunition. This isn't as simple as jotting down someone's name on a sheet of paper.....we are talking an extensive amount of paperwork here. We are also going to need a secure place to keep this information and it's going to need to be kept for a long, long time. I have almost 900 rounds of 7.62X54R ammo that's over 50 years old. If stored correctly ammunition doesn't have a shelf-life.
02-13-2015 07:31 PM
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South Carolina Duke Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Newtown Panel: All guns should be registered, all ammo serial numbered
You cannot even speak intelligently about your own topic, it seems. All I did was suggest a common crime where your original point should have some merit! Still waiting.

This is common when Libs speak out of their a rear ends and have absolutely no idea of the real world, just theories. Remember this was your point that you are absolutely failing with.

As far as motorcycles and cars, I have both and can tell you cars are safer!! However, I've been almost killed by people driving cars and even carted off on backboard because of an d-bag in a car who pulled out in front of me on my motorcycle.

Still waiting!
02-13-2015 07:34 PM
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South Carolina Duke Offline
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Post: #30
RE: Newtown Panel: All guns should be registered, all ammo serial numbered
Kapolny, Can you imagine a bunch of street excrement thugs actually having the focus and work ethic to reload their own? Ha!!
02-13-2015 07:41 PM
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Kaplony Offline
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Post: #31
RE: Newtown Panel: All guns should be registered, all ammo serial numbered
(02-13-2015 07:41 PM)South Carolina Duke Wrote:  Kapolny, Can you imagine a bunch of street excrement thugs actually having the focus and work ethic to reload their own? Ha!!

The thugs? Not ordinarily.

But remember that we have clandestine meth, PCP, Ecstasy, and other drug labs run by "street chemists" all over the country. If there is a market for untraceable ammunition someone will step up to serve it.
02-13-2015 07:46 PM
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Pyrizzo Offline
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Post: #32
RE: Newtown Panel: All guns should be registered, all ammo serial numbered
(02-13-2015 03:42 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  Ok, these criminals have guns. I'm told, they'll always have guns. Where do they get them? I for one, would like to know.

The same way they get their drugs I would assume, which are conveniently....illegal.
02-13-2015 07:46 PM
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200yrs2late Offline
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Post: #33
Re: RE: Newtown Panel: All guns should be registered, all ammo serial numbered
(02-13-2015 03:42 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  
(02-13-2015 03:33 PM)I45owl Wrote:  
(02-13-2015 03:05 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  No, but it does make it possible to know where they came from, and target that source.

But, how is that interesting? Is there really a rash of people selling bullets that are prohibited from doing so? AFAIK, this is a solution to a problem that does not exist. (Wiki only lists two real restrictions on sale of gun ammunition, and neither apply here... see below).

What it does do is make manufacturing bullets more expensive and, in turn, purchasing them more expensive, and it could possibly put a limit on production.

It makes it possible to track who sold the bullets, but what value is that? The only case I can conceive is in order to make manufacturers and distributors liable for their ultimate use. This points in the direction of using the dual track of regulation and tort law as a form of de-facto prohibition. I suspect - probably for good reason - that this is the ultimate goal of people that drafted this idea, and they are pushing it in order to achieve the goal of prohibition by deceptive means.

--------------------------------

Gun law in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_law_in_...Ammunition Wrote:Ammunition[edit] As with firearms, shipments of ammunition must be accompanied by a written notice of the shipment's contents. It is unlawful for any licensed importer, dealer, manufacturer, or collector to transfer shotgun or rifle ammunition to anyone under the age of 18, or to transfer handgun ammunition to anyone under the age of 21.
It is illegal to commercially manufacture or commercially import armor-piercing handgun ammunition as described in 18 U.S.C. chapter 44 §921 definitions (part 21). It is also illegal for federally licensed dealers to sell armor piercing handgun ammunition to anyone other than the government or law enforcement without keeping detailed records, or unless that dealer has a class 10 or 11 FFL and sells to another class 10 or class 11 FFL license holder as described in 18 U.S.C. chapter 44 §922 (b). Civilians in most states can legally possess pistol-caliber armor piercing ammunition. Only CA, IL, TX, KY, NJ, RI, FL, and Washington D.C. have laws restricting the use of such ammunition.

I'm not making any claim on it's usefulness or logical veracity given the evidence as it currently is, just refuting the sentiment of "OH IT'S COMPLETELY USELESS" that is plain wrong. Maybe it's not very useful, but to act like we can't gain useful information because an attack already occurred somehow forgets that perhaps we us it to prevent future ones.

If something is not useful, it is useless.

What can be gained except for a list of individuals who legally bought guns and ammo.
02-13-2015 07:55 PM
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South Carolina Duke Offline
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Post: #34
RE: Newtown Panel: All guns should be registered, all ammo serial numbered
Kap and 200 I agree with you both. I am just testing UCF08 on his lack of knowledge about his topic.
02-13-2015 08:01 PM
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UCF08 Offline
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Post: #35
RE: Newtown Panel: All guns should be registered, all ammo serial numbered
(02-13-2015 07:34 PM)South Carolina Duke Wrote:  You cannot even speak intelligently about your own topic, it seems. All I did was suggest a common crime where your original point should have some merit! Still waiting.

This is common when Libs speak out of their a rear ends and have absolutely no idea of the real world, just theories. Remember this was your point that you are absolutely failing with.

As far as motorcycles and cars, I have both and can tell you cars are safer!! However, I've been almost killed by people driving cars and even carted off on backboard because of an d-bag in a car who pulled out in front of me on my motorcycle.

Still waiting!

Still waiting for what? I addressed your hypothetical, and rebutted your claim. Ignoring it doesn't mean it didn't happen.
(This post was last modified: 02-13-2015 10:39 PM by UCF08.)
02-13-2015 10:38 PM
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Post: #36
RE: Newtown Panel: All guns should be registered, all ammo serial numbered
I think I am going to "mark" all my ammo now. Just so there will be no doubt that I was the one that killed a mofo that tried to deprive me of my life.07-coffee3
02-14-2015 12:02 AM
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Post: #37
RE: Newtown Panel: All guns should be registered, all ammo serial numbered
(02-13-2015 06:48 PM)South Carolina Duke Wrote:  So all those in favor of marking the ammunition, please answer this question. If I commit a crime and execute a few people as a part of the bank robbery, and there is no other evidence, ( video tape, finger prints, DNA) how will the markings on the cartridges/casings assist the authorities in apprehending me on the use of the .38 Special? I am really interested in hearing from UCF08...

I don't have a 'dog in this hunt'......

however, it would be simple....tossing the purchaser in a database comes to mind

then one could be framed in a simpler fashion relative to what currently exists....hacking would probably be the easiest method.....

it shocks me where people forget about the 'why' that has taken humanity to the level we exist at today....

everything I read today is almost always 'shite du jour'.....

that's what scares my nuts....

how people don't realize that there are just some really stupid people in this world is beyond me....you can't stop it.....not in today's world.....

this is the 'why' genetic engineering will take place in the future.....

oh wellzy.....
(This post was last modified: 02-14-2015 04:59 AM by stinkfist.)
02-14-2015 04:57 AM
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Post: #38
RE: Newtown Panel: All guns should be registered, all ammo serial numbered
(02-13-2015 03:42 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  Ok, these criminals have guns. I'm told, they'll always have guns. Where do they get them? I for one, would like to know.

It's usually one of two ways. The first is theft. A criminal will steal a weapon from a gun store, pawn shop, law abiding citizen's house, and anywhere in between. The second way is as simple as what you and I probably did to secure alcohol while we were underage; have someone who can buy it for you. In places like Oakland or Chicago with high gang activity often the same gun is passed around or used for multiple crimes.
(This post was last modified: 02-14-2015 08:16 AM by jaredf29.)
02-14-2015 08:14 AM
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Post: #39
RE: Newtown Panel: All guns should be registered, all ammo serial numbered
(02-13-2015 02:09 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  I fail to see why I should care what these people suggest...

Me, too.
02-14-2015 08:25 AM
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Post: #40
RE: Newtown Panel: All guns should be registered, all ammo serial numbered
(02-13-2015 03:34 PM)I45owl Wrote:  
(02-13-2015 03:25 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  
(02-13-2015 03:20 PM)DefCONNOne Wrote:  
(02-13-2015 03:17 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  Or you're just a crazy person?
Why do enjoy being a condescending d-bag?
It's a liberal thing.

Not true. I enjoy being a condescending d-bag, and I'm not liberal...

03-lol You Rice guys kill me. So to speak.
02-14-2015 08:28 AM
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