(02-12-2015 08:16 PM)miko33 Wrote:  http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/03/31...evelation/

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/...ation.html

I hope you realize these rational links have condemned you to hell (or not disappearing nakedly in a puff of smoke).

Once again we have a date for the "end of times".
It's been 2000 years that people have been expecting this.
Why is it that people continue to believe it will happen during their life?

(02-13-2015 01:38 AM)gobluebigjon Wrote:  Once again we have a date for the "end of times".
It's been 2000 years that people have been expecting this.
Why is it that people continue to believe it will happen during their life?

Because everyone thinks that their situations are unique, and that previous generations could not have possibly gone through similar times before? Or "never has morality been so terrible in the history of the world as it is today". Or maybe it's because the current generation always sucks and that the good old days were always better?

Probably was a rhetorical question, but I answered anyways.

I tend to side on what my grandma said: "The end of the world occurs when you die. That's it, that's the end of the world."

Seems plausible to me, as Christianity is all about a personal relationship with Christ...not about when the entire world is going to descend into anarchy and hatred (which really happens every day, somewhere).

(02-12-2015 10:51 PM)Kruciff Wrote:  There is so much logical fallacy in all of this I don't even know where to begin. I'll just state one very obvious fact in that none of this is astronomy, but rather astrology, and astrology amounts to exactly 0. Throw the religious jibber jabber any which way you want, it still doesn't change that astrology is a construct of human imagination with no basis in any prediction of any sort.

IMO it is an example of self fulfilling prophecy. People have been looking to the heavens trying to find meaning forever. Observable alignment of stars and planets and naming of those patterns was done way before the birth of Christ. It is simply an example of modern religion incorporating those concepts and using them to bolster their dogma. It is though very interesting and though provoking. It shows IMO that the level of sophistication in regard to mathematics and astrology was pretty good in ancient times. Good enough to make all of this seem to have meaning.

BTW...Very good topic Erik.

(02-13-2015 01:38 AM)gobluebigjon Wrote:  Once again we have a date for the "end of times".

We do?

Please tell!

Awful lot of people choosing to ignore your comments eric.

Good topic.

(02-13-2015 09:12 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(02-12-2015 10:51 PM)Kruciff Wrote:  There is so much logical fallacy in all of this I don't even know where to begin. I'll just state one very obvious fact in that none of this is astronomy, but rather astrology, and astrology amounts to exactly 0. Throw the religious jibber jabber any which way you want, it still doesn't change that astrology is a construct of human imagination with no basis in any prediction of any sort.

IMO it is an example of self fulfilling prophecy. People have been looking to the heavens trying to find meaning forever. Observable alignment of stars and planets and naming of those patterns was done way before the birth of Christ. It is simply an example of modern religion incorporating those concepts and using them to bolster their dogma. It is though very interesting and though provoking. It shows IMO that the level of sophistication in regard to mathematics and astrology was pretty good in ancient times. Good enough to make all of this seem to have meaning.

BTW...Very good topic Erik.

Thanks but you should be aware that astrologers from 2000 years ago did NOT have the ability to look 2000+ years into the future specific movements of the planet Jupiter.

They typically didn't even understand them to be planets, or what a planet was and had zero understanding of Keplers laws, Newtons laws, Einsteins theories on gravity, or or a million other laws we have discovered the last several centuries. They didn't even understand that the sun was the center of the solar system in most cases.

They did have the ability to track and predict things close to their time based on the patterns they understood. They also understood the movement of the Mazzaroth (Zodiac) but calculating the precise movements of Jupiter 2000 years ahead was WAYYY beyond their abilities.

Remember, the astrologers/astronomers of 2000+ years ago had to visually watch and track the movements every single night to know what was happening. IF they could so precisely predict exact positions of Jupiter 2000+ years out, then there would have be NO NEED for them to be looking at the sky every night. They could simply have done everything on paper. Which is the harder calculation...... predicting the exact position of Jupiter 2000 years from now or just 3 weeks form now?

They simply did not have the mathematical skills or knowledge of space and gravity to pull it off yet.

(02-13-2015 10:12 AM)Paul M Wrote:  Awful lot of people choosing to ignore your comments eric.

Good topic.

ikr?

lol

(02-13-2015 10:36 AM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(02-13-2015 09:12 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(02-12-2015 10:51 PM)Kruciff Wrote:  There is so much logical fallacy in all of this I don't even know where to begin. I'll just state one very obvious fact in that none of this is astronomy, but rather astrology, and astrology amounts to exactly 0. Throw the religious jibber jabber any which way you want, it still doesn't change that astrology is a construct of human imagination with no basis in any prediction of any sort.

IMO it is an example of self fulfilling prophecy. People have been looking to the heavens trying to find meaning forever. Observable alignment of stars and planets and naming of those patterns was done way before the birth of Christ. It is simply an example of modern religion incorporating those concepts and using them to bolster their dogma. It is though very interesting and though provoking. It shows IMO that the level of sophistication in regard to mathematics and astrology was pretty good in ancient times. Good enough to make all of this seem to have meaning.

BTW...Very good topic Erik.

Thanks but you should be aware that astrologers from 2000 years ago did NOT have the ability to look 2000+ years into the future specific movements of the planet Jupiter.

They typically didn't even understand them to be planets, or what a planet was and had zero understanding of Keplers laws, Newtons laws, Einsteins theories on gravity, or or a million other laws we have discovered the last several centuries. They didn't even understand that the sun was the center of the solar system in most cases.

They did have the ability to track and predict things close to their time based on the patterns they understood. They also understood the movement of the Mazzaroth (Zodiac) but calculating the precise movements of Jupiter 2000 years ahead was WAYYY beyond their abilities.

Remember, the astrologers/astronomers of 2000+ years ago had to visually watch and track the movements every single night to know what was happening. IF they could so precisely predict exact positions of Jupiter 2000+ years out, then there would have be NO NEED for them to be looking at the sky every night. They could simply have done everything on paper. Which is the harder calculation...... predicting the exact position of Jupiter 2000 years from now or just 3 weeks form now?

They simply did not have the mathematical skills or knowledge of space and gravity to pull it off yet.

The ancient astronomers could not. However, later generations eventually develop those means. Like anything that deals with predictions, people can naturally fill in the blanks to make it fit into the modern perceptions and value of following generations.

(02-13-2015 10:38 AM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(02-13-2015 10:12 AM)Paul M Wrote:  Awful lot of people choosing to ignore your comments eric.

Good topic.

ikr?

lol

You're not making good comments though, they're perfectly polite and well intentioned, but they're not good. For instance, how does the bible mention the stars in question, by specific name or by a term you're assuming is their name? Is that assumption open to a wide interpretation, like the comments about a 'crown' or 'lion' are? Absolutely. The verse does not say 'A planet will move to X coordinates in X many more rotations around the sun', which would be an example of it being explicit.

I can absolutely believe that this alignment is uncommon and noteworthy for the astronomers, but I can guarantee that this connection to be bible was found after the alignment was noticed, and not the other way around. It's very easy to take vague comments and parables, and after seeing something uncommon or momentous occur, to warp those unrelated parables to fit what occurred. It's the same thing that occurs with Nostrodamus, and why you'll see the same verse used to claim he predicted the stock market crash, the war of the roses, and the 2014 Fiesta Bowl (GO UCF). We know this is happening, and we're tailoring those verses to that knowledge so it's impossible to claim it predicted anything.

(02-13-2015 11:48 AM)UCF08 Wrote:  

(02-13-2015 10:38 AM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(02-13-2015 10:12 AM)Paul M Wrote:  Awful lot of people choosing to ignore your comments eric.

Good topic.

ikr?

lol

You're not making good comments though, they're perfectly polite and well intentioned, but they're not good. For instance, how does the bible mention the stars in question, by specific name or by a term you're assuming is their name? Is that assumption open to a wide interpretation, like the comments about a 'crown' or 'lion' are? Absolutely. The verse does not say 'A planet will move to X coordinates in X many more rotations around the sun', which would be an example of it being explicit.

I can absolutely believe that this alignment is uncommon and noteworthy for the astronomers, but I can guarantee that this connection to be bible was found after the alignment was noticed, and not the other way around. It's very easy to take vague comments and parables, and after seeing something uncommon or momentous occur, to warp those unrelated parables to fit what occurred. It's the same thing that occurs with Nostrodamus, and why you'll see the same verse used to claim he predicted the stock market crash, the war of the roses, and the 2014 Fiesta Bowl (GO UCF). We know this is happening, and we're tailoring those verses to that knowledge so it's impossible to claim it predicted anything.

Strange comments from you but hey, whatever works for you, Bro.

I think most people agree the verse and the alignment are freaky perfect and pretty darn detailed and specific.

If you don't believe in God or the Bible, I have zero expectations for it to matter to you anyway. If you are a hard core non believer, then you are going to scoff at the thought of any of this.

No surprise here.

I'm not even of an Abrahamic religion; I'm just happy to see people taking interest in the cosmos. People can make of its comings and goings what they will. But damn is it cool.

(02-13-2015 07:46 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(02-13-2015 11:48 AM)UCF08 Wrote:  

(02-13-2015 10:38 AM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(02-13-2015 10:12 AM)Paul M Wrote:  Awful lot of people choosing to ignore your comments eric.

Good topic.

ikr?

lol

You're not making good comments though, they're perfectly polite and well intentioned, but they're not good. For instance, how does the bible mention the stars in question, by specific name or by a term you're assuming is their name? Is that assumption open to a wide interpretation, like the comments about a 'crown' or 'lion' are? Absolutely. The verse does not say 'A planet will move to X coordinates in X many more rotations around the sun', which would be an example of it being explicit.

I can absolutely believe that this alignment is uncommon and noteworthy for the astronomers, but I can guarantee that this connection to be bible was found after the alignment was noticed, and not the other way around. It's very easy to take vague comments and parables, and after seeing something uncommon or momentous occur, to warp those unrelated parables to fit what occurred. It's the same thing that occurs with Nostrodamus, and why you'll see the same verse used to claim he predicted the stock market crash, the war of the roses, and the 2014 Fiesta Bowl (GO UCF). We know this is happening, and we're tailoring those verses to that knowledge so it's impossible to claim it predicted anything.

Strange comments from you but hey, whatever works for you, Bro.

I think most people agree the verse and the alignment are freaky perfect and pretty darn detailed and specific.

If you don't believe in God or the Bible, I have zero expectations for it to matter to you anyway. If you are a hard core non believer, then you are going to scoff at the thought of any of this.

No surprise here.

So you're saying that someone who is objectively unattached would not believe this? Isn't that, you know, kind of disconcerting?

But serious question, would you mind posting maybe one of two of the verses with how what you're claiming they mean? Nothing long winded or anything, just a sentence or two. I'm not trying to be a dick about this, it's just one of those things that I feel so many people don't realize occurs.

(02-13-2015 11:14 AM)miko33 Wrote:  

(02-13-2015 10:36 AM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(02-13-2015 09:12 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(02-12-2015 10:51 PM)Kruciff Wrote:  There is so much logical fallacy in all of this I don't even know where to begin. I'll just state one very obvious fact in that none of this is astronomy, but rather astrology, and astrology amounts to exactly 0. Throw the religious jibber jabber any which way you want, it still doesn't change that astrology is a construct of human imagination with no basis in any prediction of any sort.

IMO it is an example of self fulfilling prophecy. People have been looking to the heavens trying to find meaning forever. Observable alignment of stars and planets and naming of those patterns was done way before the birth of Christ. It is simply an example of modern religion incorporating those concepts and using them to bolster their dogma. It is though very interesting and though provoking. It shows IMO that the level of sophistication in regard to mathematics and astrology was pretty good in ancient times. Good enough to make all of this seem to have meaning.

BTW...Very good topic Erik.

Thanks but you should be aware that astrologers from 2000 years ago did NOT have the ability to look 2000+ years into the future specific movements of the planet Jupiter.

They typically didn't even understand them to be planets, or what a planet was and had zero understanding of Keplers laws, Newtons laws, Einsteins theories on gravity, or or a million other laws we have discovered the last several centuries. They didn't even understand that the sun was the center of the solar system in most cases.

They did have the ability to track and predict things close to their time based on the patterns they understood. They also understood the movement of the Mazzaroth (Zodiac) but calculating the precise movements of Jupiter 2000 years ahead was WAYYY beyond their abilities.

Remember, the astrologers/astronomers of 2000+ years ago had to visually watch and track the movements every single night to know what was happening. IF they could so precisely predict exact positions of Jupiter 2000+ years out, then there would have be NO NEED for them to be looking at the sky every night. They could simply have done everything on paper. Which is the harder calculation...... predicting the exact position of Jupiter 2000 years from now or just 3 weeks form now?

They simply did not have the mathematical skills or knowledge of space and gravity to pull it off yet.

The ancient astronomers could not. However, later generations eventually develop those means. Like anything that deals with predictions, people can naturally fill in the blanks to make it fit into the modern perceptions and value of following generations.

Yes...and most likely later generations before the birth of Christ. The Babylonians did in fact have very advanced mathematics and could predict star movements and eclipses. That was around 2500 BC. This was a ton of time before any Biblical scripture. It is not a stretch to believe most of this was already figured out earlier and then later fit into the timeline of Christ's birth...whenever that really was. That is even up for debate IMO.

(02-13-2015 11:15 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  Yes...and most likely later generations before the birth of Christ. The Babylonians did in fact have very advanced mathematics and could predict star movements and eclipses. That was around 2500 BC. This was a ton of time before any Biblical scripture. It is not a stretch to believe most of this was already figured out earlier and then later fit into the timeline of Christ's birth...whenever that really was. That is even up for debate IMO.

You are misunderstanding this.

Stars hardly move over the centuries, planets are moving all over the place, back and forth & up and down, constantly. Thus projecting a star movement did not require much math, after all they all appear to move together and are thousands if not million of light years away from us. Planets are in our own backyard and appear to move back and forth because of our orbit around the sun. Plus the other planets have their own orbits, which complicates things to the max. Stars appear to just sit there for millennia without moving. to track a star, you mostly only need to adjust for the earths rotation. To track a planet, you would need to understand that planets orbit, distance from the sun, gravitation pull plus several other factors. They understood NONE of these things 2000 years ago. The were barley understood before the 20th century.

We were not able to properly track planets years out until Johannes Kepler. Kepler invented the laws of planetary motion in the 17th century. The ancients were not able to track Jupiter and other plants with any real accuracy beyond a few years, based on what planet it was. It takes Jupiter about 12 years to circle the constellations, so they were not able to calculate its movement much beyond that because they had no understand of planet movements, laws or basic understanding of gravity. These things are not needed to track stars because they are typically thousands of light years away from us.

Here is a exert from wiki...

He then set about calculating the entire orbit of Mars, using the geometrical rate law and assuming an egg-shaped ovoid orbit. After approximately 40 failed attempts, in early 1605 he at last hit upon the idea of an ellipse. Finding that an elliptical orbit fit the Mars data, he immediately concluded that all planets move in ellipses, with the sun at one focus—Kepler's first law of planetary motion.

Notice he is just trying to track one full orbit of Mars and he fails over and over again before his breakthru.

Now you see why magi living nearly 2000 year before him would have a bit of trouble predicting the EXACT placement & dance of Jupiter 2000+ years out. And remember the absolute perfection of that 42 month dance of Jupiter in Virgo. Simple ZERO room for error there in the math.

(02-13-2015 11:00 PM)UCF08 Wrote:  But serious question, would you mind posting maybe one of two of the verses with how what you're claiming they mean? Nothing long winded or anything, just a sentence or two. I'm not trying to be a dick about this, it's just one of those things that I feel so many people don't realize occurs.

Read post #4

(02-13-2015 08:25 PM)CameramanJ Wrote:  I'm not even of an Abrahamic religion; I'm just happy to see people taking interest in the cosmos. People can make of its comings and goings what they will. But damn is it cool.

Isn't it though? The sheer size and splendor is something you really couldn't make up.

I made it about 20 seconds in. Couldn't handle anymore.

(02-14-2015 06:59 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  I made it about 20 seconds in. Couldn't handle anymore.