(01-31-2015 09:50 PM)Brother Bluto Wrote:  

(01-31-2015 04:00 PM)MTigerBlue Wrote:  I think it's a commentary on our society as a whole that we almost all preferred a slimeball used car salesman who could win big to a guy with fewer vices than any of us who can't. It's obviously true, but personally uncomfortable.

I have no issue with it whatsoever. Who is without sin can cast the first stone is my motto

I will not be casting stones as I am certainly not sinless.

I will say this here as well. We cannot know Josh Pastner has no real vices / problems. His public persona in very clean, but that doesn't guarantee a life lived well.

I want to be very clear, I don't suspect Josh Pastner has major skeletons (I do not think he has really that many minor ones), but we are limited just by being human beings. Really wish we didn't deify people who have pristine public personas. I guarantee Pastner, just like all of us, has done/said things he regrets. This would not make him a bad person BTW, just human, like the rest of us.

I don't say that to cast doubt on his goodness, but rather to make sure that people understand that if something ever comes out about Pastner, not to hang him immediately out of personal disappointment.

Just thought this was a good place to say that. I will continue to assume Pastner is a great guy, but I refuse to take it as a 100% article of faith nor to make it a primary determination on how advantageous it is to have him at the helm...

(01-31-2015 10:08 PM)Sundanceuiuc Wrote:  

(01-31-2015 09:50 PM)Brother Bluto Wrote:  

(01-31-2015 04:00 PM)MTigerBlue Wrote:  I think it's a commentary on our society as a whole that we almost all preferred a slimeball used car salesman who could win big to a guy with fewer vices than any of us who can't. It's obviously true, but personally uncomfortable.

I have no issue with it whatsoever. Who is without sin can cast the first stone is my motto

I will not be casting stones as I am certainly not sinless.

I will say this here as well. We cannot know Josh Pastner has no real vices / problems. His public persona in very clean, but that doesn't guarantee a life lived well.

I want to be very clear, I don't suspect Josh Pastner has major skeletons (I do not think he has really that many minor ones), but we are limited just by being human beings. Really wish we didn't deify people who have pristine public personas. I guarantee Pastner, just like all of us, has done/said things he regrets. This would not make him a bad person BTW, just human, like the rest of us.

I don't say that to cast doubt on his goodness, but rather to make sure that people understand that if something ever comes out about Pastner, not to hang him immediately out of personal disappointment.

Just thought this was a good place to say that. I will continue to assume Pastner is a great guy, but I refuse to take it as a 100% article of faith nor to make it a primary determination on how advantageous it is to have him at the helm...

WTF??? I think we need a new coach, but you guys are bordering on libel. Y'all need to get a life!

Libel? By suggesting a potential disconnect between public persona and private acts? I assume pastner is just as good a person as he comes off, but I've never met the guy.

(01-31-2015 11:13 PM)Tiger-n-Bear Wrote:  you guys are bordering on libel.

Hahaha, "libel."

(01-27-2015 09:50 PM)80sTiger Wrote:  Geoff Calkins ... Speaks to the increasing apathy and 'empty seats'.

Link: http://www.commercialappeal.com/sports/c...p_42208352

Samples:

"We’re not relevant,” he said. “We don’t even compete in a lot of big games. And Josh (Pastner), I’m sure he’s a nice guy, but he talks to us like we’re idiots, like we don’t know basketball.”

"... is it unreasonable for Memphis fans to think the program should be able to get to a Sweet 16 in six years under a head coach? Is it unreasonable for Memphis fans to think something is wrong with a program that routinely gets smashed by double digits on national TV?"

Hasn't that happened more this year than in most recent years?

(01-31-2015 10:08 PM)Sundanceuiuc Wrote:  

(01-31-2015 09:50 PM)Brother Bluto Wrote:  

(01-31-2015 04:00 PM)MTigerBlue Wrote:  I think it's a commentary on our society as a whole that we almost all preferred a slimeball used car salesman who could win big to a guy with fewer vices than any of us who can't. It's obviously true, but personally uncomfortable.

I have no issue with it whatsoever. Who is without sin can cast the first stone is my motto

I will not be casting stones as I am certainly not sinless.

I will say this here as well. We cannot know Josh Pastner has no real vices / problems. His public persona in very clean, but that doesn't guarantee a life lived well.

I want to be very clear, I don't suspect Josh Pastner has major skeletons (I do not think he has really that many minor ones), but we are limited just by being human beings. Really wish we didn't deify people who have pristine public personas. I guarantee Pastner, just like all of us, has done/said things he regrets. This would not make him a bad person BTW, just human, like the rest of us.

I don't say that to cast doubt on his goodness, but rather to make sure that people understand that if something ever comes out about Pastner, not to hang him immediately out of personal disappointment.

Just thought this was a good place to say that. I will continue to assume Pastner is a great guy, but I refuse to take it as a 100% article of faith nor to make it a primary determination on how advantageous it is to have him at the helm...

But you did just that.

You just went into the



Stick to talking about basketball coaching...and worry much less what Pastner has done and/or is doing in his private life as that's just creepy and extremely unfair to him or his family.

(02-01-2015 07:13 AM)KnightLight Wrote:  

(01-31-2015 10:08 PM)Sundanceuiuc Wrote:  

(01-31-2015 09:50 PM)Brother Bluto Wrote:  

(01-31-2015 04:00 PM)MTigerBlue Wrote:  I think it's a commentary on our society as a whole that we almost all preferred a slimeball used car salesman who could win big to a guy with fewer vices than any of us who can't. It's obviously true, but personally uncomfortable.

I have no issue with it whatsoever. Who is without sin can cast the first stone is my motto

I will not be casting stones as I am certainly not sinless.

I will say this here as well. We cannot know Josh Pastner has no real vices / problems. His public persona in very clean, but that doesn't guarantee a life lived well.

I want to be very clear, I don't suspect Josh Pastner has major skeletons (I do not think he has really that many minor ones), but we are limited just by being human beings. Really wish we didn't deify people who have pristine public personas. I guarantee Pastner, just like all of us, has done/said things he regrets. This would not make him a bad person BTW, just human, like the rest of us.

I don't say that to cast doubt on his goodness, but rather to make sure that people understand that if something ever comes out about Pastner, not to hang him immediately out of personal disappointment.

Just thought this was a good place to say that. I will continue to assume Pastner is a great guy, but I refuse to take it as a 100% article of faith nor to make it a primary determination on how advantageous it is to have him at the helm...

But you did just that.

You just went into the



Stick to talking about basketball coaching...and worry much less what Pastner has done and/or is doing in his private life as that's just creepy and extremely unfair to him or his family.

Dammit. Just dammit.

OK, look. I SAID I assume Josh Pastner is a good as his public persona. I just wish that people would:

A. Not promote it as fact, since few here have met him and
B. More importantly not use it to defend his tenure against those who think he hasn't won enough.

I am just playing Devi's advocate b/c I am increasingly sick of people who feel his tenure should come to an end being castigated for not supporting 'a good guy' when he is hired to be a basketball coach. I'm in favor of retaining him past this year, but I weary of this being a reason. Personal goodness does not equate to professional competency.

I continue to think (and strongly suspect in light of ZERO evidence to the contrary that I am aware of) that Josh Pastner is a capital human being. If you took anything else from my post, then I sincerely and deeply apologize for being unclear or hard to read.

But creepy to say this? It's far creepier to constantly have his 'factually inherent goodness' color conversations about the quality of his basketball coaching. It speaks to a holding up a man on a personal standard that might be impossible for anyone to achieve.

Clearly I have phrased this poorly in some manner since this post has called me creepy. But re-read the post we both quoted by MTigerBlue

(01-31-2015 04:00 PM)MTigerBlue Wrote:  I think it's a commentary on our society as a whole that we almost all preferred a slimeball used car salesman who could win big to a guy with fewer vices than any of us who can't. It's obviously true, but personally uncomfortable.

Who gets the right to assume what vices the rest of mt.org has or hasn't? I am willing to bet CJP has fewer vices than me, in fact I'd put money on it. I drink and curse (alot!), but I feel I am still a pretty decent guy and people who have met me would (hopefully) back that up. But CJP has fewer vices than all our posters?

That simply doesn't ring true.
And more importantly, it doesn't ring relevant

>

The day has come where simply stating there can be a disconnect in public persona and private life is 'libel' and 'creepy', whereas telling us all that 'good guy' beats 'winning', when the job is winning is ok.

Unreal.

I quit, I really do.

(BTW, still think Josh Pastner is a good dude for those keeping score).

Dammit.

(02-01-2015 07:13 AM)KnightLight Wrote:  

(01-31-2015 10:08 PM)Sundanceuiuc Wrote:  

(01-31-2015 09:50 PM)Brother Bluto Wrote:  

(01-31-2015 04:00 PM)MTigerBlue Wrote:  I think it's a commentary on our society as a whole that we almost all preferred a slimeball used car salesman who could win big to a guy with fewer vices than any of us who can't. It's obviously true, but personally uncomfortable.

I have no issue with it whatsoever. Who is without sin can cast the first stone is my motto

I will not be casting stones as I am certainly not sinless.

I will say this here as well. We cannot know Josh Pastner has no real vices / problems. His public persona in very clean, but that doesn't guarantee a life lived well.

I want to be very clear, I don't suspect Josh Pastner has major skeletons (I do not think he has really that many minor ones), but we are limited just by being human beings. Really wish we didn't deify people who have pristine public personas. I guarantee Pastner, just like all of us, has done/said things he regrets. This would not make him a bad person BTW, just human, like the rest of us.

I don't say that to cast doubt on his goodness, but rather to make sure that people understand that if something ever comes out about Pastner, not to hang him immediately out of personal disappointment.

Just thought this was a good place to say that. I will continue to assume Pastner is a great guy, but I refuse to take it as a 100% article of faith nor to make it a primary determination on how advantageous it is to have him at the helm...

But you did just that.

You just went into the



Stick to talking about basketball coaching...and worry much less what Pastner has done and/or is doing in his private life as that's just creepy and extremely unfair to him or his family.

We will stop when the sheep stop

(02-01-2015 12:48 PM)Brother Bluto Wrote:  

(02-01-2015 07:13 AM)KnightLight Wrote:  

(01-31-2015 10:08 PM)Sundanceuiuc Wrote:  

(01-31-2015 09:50 PM)Brother Bluto Wrote:  

(01-31-2015 04:00 PM)MTigerBlue Wrote:  I think it's a commentary on our society as a whole that we almost all preferred a slimeball used car salesman who could win big to a guy with fewer vices than any of us who can't. It's obviously true, but personally uncomfortable.

I have no issue with it whatsoever. Who is without sin can cast the first stone is my motto

I will not be casting stones as I am certainly not sinless.

I will say this here as well. We cannot know Josh Pastner has no real vices / problems. His public persona in very clean, but that doesn't guarantee a life lived well.

I want to be very clear, I don't suspect Josh Pastner has major skeletons (I do not think he has really that many minor ones), but we are limited just by being human beings. Really wish we didn't deify people who have pristine public personas. I guarantee Pastner, just like all of us, has done/said things he regrets. This would not make him a bad person BTW, just human, like the rest of us.

I don't say that to cast doubt on his goodness, but rather to make sure that people understand that if something ever comes out about Pastner, not to hang him immediately out of personal disappointment.

Just thought this was a good place to say that. I will continue to assume Pastner is a great guy, but I refuse to take it as a 100% article of faith nor to make it a primary determination on how advantageous it is to have him at the helm...

But you did just that.

You just went into the



Stick to talking about basketball coaching...and worry much less what Pastner has done and/or is doing in his private life as that's just creepy and extremely unfair to him or his family.

We will stop when the sheep stop

Sigh, sorry to all for this thread detour guys. I was merely trying to say I wanted Pastner judged on his tenure as a coach and not on his (assumedly based on his public persona) good nature.

We loved Cal until he left.

I am THRILLED Josh Pastner is such a great ambassador for our program. That is a FACT. But I really want to not have legitimate criticism drowned out by the fact he is a good guy. It's gets tiring.

I'd rather win with a good guy, but his job IS winning, NOT being a good guy.

Note: above post written by poster who thinks Josh Pastner has earned next year...

(02-01-2015 01:03 PM)Sundanceuiuc Wrote:  

(02-01-2015 12:48 PM)Brother Bluto Wrote:  

(02-01-2015 07:13 AM)KnightLight Wrote:  

(01-31-2015 10:08 PM)Sundanceuiuc Wrote:  

(01-31-2015 09:50 PM)Brother Bluto Wrote:  I have no issue with it whatsoever. Who is without sin can cast the first stone is my motto

I will not be casting stones as I am certainly not sinless.

I will say this here as well. We cannot know Josh Pastner has no real vices / problems. His public persona in very clean, but that doesn't guarantee a life lived well.

I want to be very clear, I don't suspect Josh Pastner has major skeletons (I do not think he has really that many minor ones), but we are limited just by being human beings. Really wish we didn't deify people who have pristine public personas. I guarantee Pastner, just like all of us, has done/said things he regrets. This would not make him a bad person BTW, just human, like the rest of us.

I don't say that to cast doubt on his goodness, but rather to make sure that people understand that if something ever comes out about Pastner, not to hang him immediately out of personal disappointment.

Just thought this was a good place to say that. I will continue to assume Pastner is a great guy, but I refuse to take it as a 100% article of faith nor to make it a primary determination on how advantageous it is to have him at the helm...

But you did just that.

You just went into the



Stick to talking about basketball coaching...and worry much less what Pastner has done and/or is doing in his private life as that's just creepy and extremely unfair to him or his family.

We will stop when the sheep stop

Sigh, sorry to all for this thread detour guys. I was merely trying to say I wanted Pastner judged on his tenure as a coach and not on his (assumedly based on his public persona) good nature.

We loved Cal until he left.

I am THRILLED Josh Pastner is such a great ambassador for our program. That is a FACT. But I really want to not have legitimate criticism drowned out by the fact he is a good guy. It's gets tiring.

I'd rather win with a good guy, but his job IS winning, NOT being a good guy.

Note: above post written by poster who thinks Josh Pastner has earned next year...

You didn't derail it at all. The Pro Pastner crowd is who brings the nice guy stuff up. Like I said before just hire the pastor from Hope Church or Lindenwood if you want that. Josh can be the guidance counselor at Grace Saint Lukes.

(02-01-2015 01:06 PM)Brother Bluto Wrote:  

(02-01-2015 01:03 PM)Sundanceuiuc Wrote:  

(02-01-2015 12:48 PM)Brother Bluto Wrote:  

(02-01-2015 07:13 AM)KnightLight Wrote:  

(01-31-2015 10:08 PM)Sundanceuiuc Wrote:  I will not be casting stones as I am certainly not sinless.

I will say this here as well. We cannot know Josh Pastner has no real vices / problems. His public persona in very clean, but that doesn't guarantee a life lived well.

I want to be very clear, I don't suspect Josh Pastner has major skeletons (I do not think he has really that many minor ones), but we are limited just by being human beings. Really wish we didn't deify people who have pristine public personas. I guarantee Pastner, just like all of us, has done/said things he regrets. This would not make him a bad person BTW, just human, like the rest of us.

I don't say that to cast doubt on his goodness, but rather to make sure that people understand that if something ever comes out about Pastner, not to hang him immediately out of personal disappointment.

Just thought this was a good place to say that. I will continue to assume Pastner is a great guy, but I refuse to take it as a 100% article of faith nor to make it a primary determination on how advantageous it is to have him at the helm...

But you did just that.

You just went into the



Stick to talking about basketball coaching...and worry much less what Pastner has done and/or is doing in his private life as that's just creepy and extremely unfair to him or his family.

We will stop when the sheep stop

Sigh, sorry to all for this thread detour guys. I was merely trying to say I wanted Pastner judged on his tenure as a coach and not on his (assumedly based on his public persona) good nature.

We loved Cal until he left.

I am THRILLED Josh Pastner is such a great ambassador for our program. That is a FACT. But I really want to not have legitimate criticism drowned out by the fact he is a good guy. It's gets tiring.

I'd rather win with a good guy, but his job IS winning, NOT being a good guy.

Note: above post written by poster who thinks Josh Pastner has earned next year...

You didn't detail it at all. The Pro Pastner crowd is who brings the nice guy stuff up. Like I said before just hire the pastor from Hope Church or Lindenwood if you want that. Josh can be the guidance counselor at Grace Saint Lukes.

No, Bluto, the point of contention is that I've been told that my point about not knowing Pastner is as clean as his public persona is the same as insinuating that he is not.

Anyone with even a cursory understanding of me as a poster on this site would know damn well I would not say Josh Pastner is anything, but a good dude, since I have no reason to believe otherwise. I will continue to assume he's a good guy.

But observing we don't actually know the private lives of our coaches and we should judge them on the results is akin to insinuating that a coach is a closet evil person.

Whatever, I've got work to do before the Super Bowl game.

(02-01-2015 01:11 PM)Sundanceuiuc Wrote:  

(02-01-2015 01:06 PM)Brother Bluto Wrote:  

(02-01-2015 01:03 PM)Sundanceuiuc Wrote:  

(02-01-2015 12:48 PM)Brother Bluto Wrote:  

(02-01-2015 07:13 AM)KnightLight Wrote:  But you did just that.

You just went into the



Stick to talking about basketball coaching...and worry much less what Pastner has done and/or is doing in his private life as that's just creepy and extremely unfair to him or his family.

We will stop when the sheep stop

Sigh, sorry to all for this thread detour guys. I was merely trying to say I wanted Pastner judged on his tenure as a coach and not on his (assumedly based on his public persona) good nature.

We loved Cal until he left.

I am THRILLED Josh Pastner is such a great ambassador for our program. That is a FACT. But I really want to not have legitimate criticism drowned out by the fact he is a good guy. It's gets tiring.

I'd rather win with a good guy, but his job IS winning, NOT being a good guy.

Note: above post written by poster who thinks Josh Pastner has earned next year...

You didn't detail it at all. The Pro Pastner crowd is who brings the nice guy stuff up. Like I said before just hire the pastor from Hope Church or Lindenwood if you want that. Josh can be the guidance counselor at Grace Saint Lukes.

No, Bluto, the point of contention is that I've been told that my point about not knowing Pastner is as clean as his public persona is the same as insinuating that he is not.

Anyone with even a cursory understanding of me as a poster on this site would know damn well I would not say Josh Pastner is anything, but a good dude, since I have no reason to believe otherwise. I will continue to assume he's a good guy.

But observing we don't actually know the private lives of our coaches and we should judge them on the results is akin to insinuating that a coach is a closet evil person.

Whatever, I've got work to do before the Super Bowl game.

What I get tired of is hearing the same "I'm proud we have a coach that doesn't cheat" How do we know this ? Wasn't he part of Cal's staff ? Wasn't Arizona investigated when he was an assistant there? I mean come on.

If you've followed this board for more than a month, you don't have to assume anything about the morals of its participants -- most of them (us) are not bashful admitting or even showing them periodically!

And sorry if I left that impression with you Sundance, but nothing in my post was meant to justify the "sheepish" idea that someone should be kept as coach strictly on the basis of his public or private morals. It was meant to point out the less-than-moral attitude that most of us apparently have of not caring about morality as long as we're winning.

The more Tiger basketball games and pre- and post-game news conferences I watch, the lower my standards sink for what would be acceptable, in the area of moral (let's call it) perception, a replacement coach would have to have. I would've burned my Tiger gear if they'd hired Pearl a couple of years ago. This year, I'd do what I'm doing now and try to block out the things I don't like about the coach so I could watch the games and keep being a fan of my school's team.

Grantland Rice is dead.

(02-01-2015 01:23 PM)MTigerBlue Wrote:  If you've followed this board for more than a month, you don't have to assume anything about the morals of its participants -- most of them (us) are not bashful admitting or even showing them periodically!

And sorry if I left that impression with you Sundance, but nothing in my post was meant to justify the "sheepish" idea that someone should be kept as coach strictly on the basis of his public or private morals. It was meant to point out the less-than-moral attitude that most of us apparently have of not caring about morality as long as we're winning.

The more Tiger basketball games and pre- and post-game news conferences I watch, the lower my standards sink for what would be acceptable, in the area of moral (let's call it) perception, a replacement coach would have to have. I would've burned my Tiger gear if they'd hired Pearl a couple of years ago. This year, I'd do what I'm doing now and try to block out the things I don't like about the coach so I could watch the games and keep being a fan of my school's team.

Grantland Rice is dead.

You've said zero to offend me mate, I understood your point 100% and was only using it as a reference point for the larger issue. If you assume we are cool, we are cool and I apologize 100% if you think the above is in anyway directed at you.

take any apologies from that you need. Unless I hear otherwise you and I are good

The people attacking sundance have zero understanding of what libel is or even what he's saying. He's expressing a very reasonable point of view that we don't really know what pastner is like in private, we just know his wholesome image. It's not a disparaging remark in any sense and if you think it is you must be lighting candles at the altar of pastner or something.

Its basketball not the peace corp or unicef.

(02-01-2015 01:27 PM)Sundanceuiuc Wrote:  You've said zero to offend me mate, I understood your point 100% and was only using it as a reference point for the larger issue. If you assume we are cool, we are cool and I apologize 100% if you think the above is in anyway directed at you.

take any apologies from that you need. Unless I hear otherwise you and I are good

No, you have nothing for which to apologize. I just didn't want to be misunderstood as saying we should, in Bluto's words, hire the pastor of Bellevue to coach the team -- although the press conferences would improve substantially.