Here's what really happens. Every time (video.) Most people on unemployment "insurance" work harder to keep up the ruse than they ever did or will at jobs. Here's an interesting fact: why is it you can keep rotating listing the same three companies you "applied to" in most states? Hmmmmm. Just give people the money and "vacation" and at least be honest about it. Saves by removing unnecessary govt workers. Oh yeah, it's another jobs program, though so we couldn't do that.

Funny, Geo Washington, Jefferson, Adams, and the unnamed average people who started this country didn't have unemployment insurance. While there were many unfair inequities based on race (except for the tens of thousands of blacks who owned slaves themselves that somehow almost never gets mentioned) everyone knew the deal here in America, and it was good: work or starve. Its all the motivation you need. The rest is bs.

I have never taken them even when between jobs. And i've seldom been without something to do. I'd rather push a lawnmower or deliver pizza than take that junk. I don't want to ever be on the government dole. It's just another problem with our govt's babysitting attitude. If people really think they need unemployment insurance, make it an optional thing. Otherwise give us back our money out of our paychecks that gets IOUed by the govt like everything else. The US govt has been bankrupt for years. This is just another way they try to hide that fact.

(01-28-2015 05:58 PM)QuestionSocratic Wrote:  

(01-28-2015 05:04 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Also QS, I don't think your understanding the Keynesian aspect of unemployment benefits. The only thing I've ever heard mentioned by Keynesian's in relation to unemployment benefits is regarding their benefit to the economy in that these payments are almost immediately put back into the economy because their recipients have to spend them. So the rate of economic return is quite high when compared to other government stimulus like tax cuts.

The author's are: Marcus Hagedorn of the University of Oslo, Iourii Manovskii of the University of Pennsylvania and Stockholm University's Kurt Mitman. I'd tend to guess that they have a better knowledge of the subject than you do.

Nonetheless, let me try to answer your question. Unemployment is a simple transfer payment. It takes money from one place and puts it another, not creating any economic activity. So the dollar that is paid in unemployment, is a dollar that someone else was taxed and did not have to spend. So a wash.

A job not only provides wages but also those wages are factors of production, along with capital, that produce economic goods.

So maybe what you "heard" isn't very complete. Which by the way, what you heard from Keynesians takes precedence over an academic study? I'm sure you can find a cute little emoticon to attach to your vacuous response.

You can be flippant and dismiss me all you want, but Keynesians don't just spout nothing but theories. It's a fact that unemployment benefits result in increased economic activity whether you accept it or not.

Quote:A study commissioned by the Labor Department under the Bush administration showed that for every dollar spent on unemployment benefits, two dollars are pumped back into the economy.

The Economic Impact of Unemployment Insurance

And then there's this. Enjoy!
Right-Wing Media Use Flawed Study To Attack Unemployment Benefits

And I love this part:

Quote:That said, the results are not a vindication for Republicans like Sen. Richard Shelby (R-Ala.). "People, if you pay 'em for years and years, they won't look for a job," he said, reiterating a common conservative argument against unemployment insurance.

In an interview, Mitman rejected "the idea that people just collect the check and sit at home and watch T.V." People who are out of work are always out looking for jobs, whether or not they're getting unemployment insurance, he said.

Instead, because they were receiving checks, the unemployed could afford to wait until they found a job with a higher wage. It wasn't workers who gave up, the group argues -- it was employers, who found that they had to pay more to bring in new labor. After a while, they were less likely to advertise new vacancies. [The Washington Post, Wonkblog, 1/27/15]

Mitman...Mitman...now where have I heard that name before?

(01-28-2015 05:50 PM)QuestionSocratic Wrote:  

(01-28-2015 04:41 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

(01-28-2015 10:15 AM)QuestionSocratic Wrote:  So a new study has determined that the most significant cause of the recent job growth was the elimination of the prolonged unemployment benefits. In the Keynesian world, these were argued to be "stimulus" that would lead to job creation via demand.

But the study ( Study abstract ) draws the following conclusions:

Quote:1.8 million additional jobs were created in 2014 due to the benefit cut. Almost 1 million of these jobs were filled by workers from out of the labor force who would not have participated in the labor market had benefit extensions been reauthorized.

Wait...people getting unemployment benefits don't look for and get jobs? In every state I've lived in, you have to be seeking employment to continue to even get benefits.

How in the heck could anyone reach that conclusion?

I can only tell you that in NY when you go to sign in for unemployment, you are asked if you looked for work. If you answer yes, you get your check. It's the "honor" system.

Not likely. While yes, you need to answer that question without providing the source documentation at that time, but in both Ohio and Michigan the fine print clearly states that you need to keep the proof of your job searches and be prepared to submit them any time they are requested. I can't imagine every state doesn't have the same fine print. That being said, I don't know of anyone who was called to account for their searches, but that's just my experience and not in anyway evidence that it never happens.

In Virginia, you do it online and have to give the specifics of what and where you applied. Need 3 per week. Was never a problem here as I was putting in a good 30 per week.

I believe the study is logical. From what I recall reading in the news and on the web during the 2012 and 2013 years when employment "stagnated" was that there were more jobs available out in the economy that companies had a hard time filling due to the long extension in unemployment benefits. To me, companies didn't just start offering jobs the moment the insurance ran out. The jobs were out there for some time, but most people will use logic and conclude it's easier for them to stay unemployed and make 80% of the wage that they could earn if they went back to work and had to put a lot more effort into their lives. We saw a similar thing play out when welfare benefits were drastically reduced during an economic boom in the 90s when Clinton was in office. Once the free money was gone, the people suddenly found work in fairly short order. Same mechanism.

Presto!

Quote:Keep a Work Search Record for each week you claim benefits and be prepared to give a copy of that Record to the New York State Department of Labor when we request it.

http://labor.ny.gov/ui/claimantinfo/work-search.shtm

I have no problem with unemployment insurance.

I also believe correlation does not equal causation. There are a lot of moving parts in this study, IMO, and this simplifies it way too much.

(01-29-2015 11:25 AM)mlb Wrote:  I have no problem with unemployment insurance.

I also believe correlation does not equal causation. There are a lot of moving parts in this study, IMO, and this simplifies it way too much.

Me either because it is useful when utilized as short term stop gaps.

I also believe that too, but I do not recall any sudden changes in production or services increasing that coincides with the sudden stop of long term unemployment insurance. What I do recall is that there were stories about jobs being available but going unfilled due to a lack of people looking for work. I remember those stories.

Having said all that, I'm going by memory and have not looked up anything to verify my thoughts on this.

Unemployment insurance is a very viable program. Yes it gets abused but thankfully it's there if You have to have it. You pay into it out of every payroll paycheck You earn. Now if You're on a 1099 self employed and don't contribute to it You most likely will be out of luck.
Sure there are people that just look in a phone book and list 3 companies but that's defeating it's purpose. It benefits You to actually seek Employment even if just to boost Your later in life Social Security Benefits that You also pay into. Those Lean years that You show on w2's hurt the bottom line later on. Just like service industry people that receive cash tips, it's great now for spending money but when You reach retirement age and want to draw SS and You failed to report those tips, You receive far less per month. UEI is not designed to make You a stay at home person but to help You when the unexpected happens, and it usually will at some point.

(01-29-2015 11:45 AM)CardFan1 Wrote:  Unemployment insurance is a very viable program. Yes it gets abused but thankfully it's there if You have to have it. You pay into it out of every payroll paycheck You earn. Now if You're on a 1099 self employed and don't contribute to it You most likely will be out of luck.
Sure there are people that just look in a phone book and list 3 companies but that's defeating it's purpose. It benefits You to actually seek Employment even if just to boost Your later in life Social Security Benefits that You also pay into. Those Lean years that You show on w2's hurt the bottom line later on. Just like service industry people that receive cash tips, it's great now for spending money but when You reach retirement age and want to draw SS and You failed to report those tips, You receive far less per month. UEI is not designed to make You a stay at home person but to help You when the unexpected happens, and it usually will at some point.

That's not really true. YOU don't pay directly into it, your employer does.

YOU only pay into Social Security (6.2%) and Medicare (1.45%) up to the maximum limits.

(01-29-2015 11:33 AM)miko33 Wrote:  

(01-29-2015 11:25 AM)mlb Wrote:  I have no problem with unemployment insurance.

I also believe correlation does not equal causation. There are a lot of moving parts in this study, IMO, and this simplifies it way too much.

Me either because it is useful when utilized as short term stop gaps.

I also believe that too, but I do not recall any sudden changes in production or services increasing that coincides with the sudden stop of long term unemployment insurance. What I do recall is that there were stories about jobs being available but going unfilled due to a lack of people looking for work. I remember those stories.

Having said all that, I'm going by memory and have not looked up anything to verify my thoughts on this.

Are you sure you're not thinking of jobs that were either part-time or low pay that were going unfilled? One of the authors of the study mentions that in some stuff I read, that many folks would look for jobs but not take them because the pay was too low to meet their obligations.

Unemployment pay is garbage. I work in HR and interview and hire hundreds of people for manufacturing positions. It is RIDICULOUS how many people ADMIT that they weren't looking for a job because they were on unemployment. I don't even know how many times I've asked someone why they had a 3 month, 6 month, 1yr, etc. gap in employment, and there response was, "I was on unemployment." It's as if they think it is a legit excuse for not working! I've even had some people say, "I make more money on unemployment that I would working, so I'm not interested." That's why I fight every single unemployment claim I can, even if is only for $50 and my boss tells me not to worry about it. Unemployment should not be enough to live off of, but some people do.

Where I used to work, we required applicants to fill out the application, and a quiz along with the app, in our office. One person asked if he could take it with him because he 'didn't have time' to fill it out then; we told him no, he had to fill it out in person. He then asked if we would sign his form stating that he filled out the application. We said we would only sign it once he filled out the application. He looked at us with a puzzled look on his face, as if he were saying, "Are you serious? You're not going to sign my paper?" Needless to say, this guy never came back to fill out an application. Jsut another person trying to game the system.

Wait a minute ... when unemployment benefits are stopped, people go looking for jobs?

No way.

One way that is used to game the system is to simply apply for jobs that you aren't anywhere qualified for. Probably a good 30-40% of our applications for open positions were like this. People without high school diplomas, criminal records, or drug users who knew they would flunk the drug test. But hey...they got to fill out one of three slots that week.