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Belichick on deflated balls
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Belichick on deflated balls
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01-22-2015 11:06 AM
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RE: Belichick on deflated balls
A Culture of Cheating. 07-coffee3
01-22-2015 11:15 AM
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RE: Belichick on deflated balls
With the amount of attention this is getting from non-sports media (CNN, GMA, late night talk shoes and so forth), I think the Pats will be assessed a major penalty.
01-22-2015 11:26 AM
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RE: Belichick on deflated balls
Wonder if the NFL would consider a post season ban for next year. Yeah, that's not happening but i could see them lose a 1st round draft pick
01-22-2015 11:37 AM
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ken d Online
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RE: Belichick on deflated balls
Why is there a rule about inflation in the first place? It apparently has virtually no effect on performance except in the kicking game. Can't there be a special ball for use only by the kickers?
01-22-2015 11:46 AM
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Wedge Offline
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RE: Belichick on deflated balls
What is Brady's frame of mind is going to be, preparing for the Super Bowl, now that Belichick has thrown him under the bus?
01-22-2015 11:47 AM
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RE: Belichick on deflated balls
(01-22-2015 11:46 AM)ken d Wrote:  Why is there a rule about inflation in the first place? It apparently has virtually no effect on performance except in the kicking game. Can't there be a special ball for use only by the kickers?


I'm not sure where you are coming up with that conclusion. Most QB's say yes, it makes a huge difference - allows for a tighter spiral, easier to grip, etc.

Tom Brady has gone on record in the past he that he prefers the deflected ball, because it makes him a better passer.
01-22-2015 12:56 PM
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Wedge Offline
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RE: Belichick on deflated balls
(01-22-2015 12:56 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  
(01-22-2015 11:46 AM)ken d Wrote:  Why is there a rule about inflation in the first place? It apparently has virtually no effect on performance except in the kicking game. Can't there be a special ball for use only by the kickers?


I'm not sure where you are coming up with that conclusion. Most QB's say yes, it makes a huge difference - allows for a tighter spiral, easier to grip, etc.

Tom Brady has gone on record in the past he that he prefers the deflected ball, because it makes him a better passer.

BTW the NFL does have special "K" balls that are only used on kicking plays.

A slightly softer ball would be easier to grip for QBs, RBs, and receivers. Would be most noticeable in really cold weather when the fully-inflated ball can feel as hard as a rock.
01-22-2015 01:02 PM
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ken d Online
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RE: Belichick on deflated balls
(01-22-2015 12:56 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  
(01-22-2015 11:46 AM)ken d Wrote:  Why is there a rule about inflation in the first place? It apparently has virtually no effect on performance except in the kicking game. Can't there be a special ball for use only by the kickers?


I'm not sure where you are coming up with that conclusion. [b] Most QB's say yes, it makes a huge difference[/b] - allows for a tighter spiral, easier to grip, etc.

Tom Brady has gone on record in the past he that he prefers the deflected ball, because it makes him a better passer.

Some do, some don't. Many top NFL QB's have said they can't tell the difference, while others say they prefer an overinflated ball. Any scientific studies (and there aren't many, since this isn't a very earth shattering question) suggest that any effect on ball flight is negligible, and at best neutral on the question of whether those effects help or hinder the offense. Unless there is a placebo effect, where the quarterback believes it will help, there doesn't seem to be much meat on this sandwich.
01-22-2015 01:05 PM
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RE: Belichick on deflated balls
I find it hard to believe that a detail oriented coach like Belicheat didn't know what was going on.


It may not have made a difference in this game, but likely did in the Ravens game.
01-22-2015 01:06 PM
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RE: Belichick on deflated balls
(01-22-2015 01:05 PM)ken d Wrote:  Some do, some don't. Many top NFL QB's have said they can't tell the difference, while others say they prefer an overinflated ball. Any scientific studies (and there aren't many, since this isn't a very earth shattering question) suggest that any effect on ball flight is negligible, and at best neutral on the question of whether those effects help or hinder the offense. Unless there is a placebo effect, where the quarterback believes it will help, there doesn't seem to be much meat on this sandwich.

I don't know where you are getting that, but nearly EVERY QB who has spoken on the issue has said they make a huge difference. Every one of them. The only difference is others have admitted to "doctoring" the balls. And it is not about ball flight, again not sure where you are getting this (you overinflate the balls to get better flight, not underinflate). It is because a softer ball is easier to grip, which makes it easier to catch, and in many cases easier to throw. You don't even have to think hard about that one, if you have ever handled a football. And there is science behind it: same reason we have fingerprints. More surface area (a deflated ball has dimples and creates more surface area) makes it easier to grip. Exact same reason why we have fingerprints.
(This post was last modified: 01-22-2015 02:09 PM by adcorbett.)
01-22-2015 01:23 PM
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RE: Belichick on deflated balls
(01-22-2015 12:56 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  
(01-22-2015 11:46 AM)ken d Wrote:  Why is there a rule about inflation in the first place? It apparently has virtually no effect on performance except in the kicking game. Can't there be a special ball for use only by the kickers?


I'm not sure where you are coming up with that conclusion. Most QB's say yes, it makes a huge difference - allows for a tighter spiral, easier to grip, etc.

Tom Brady has gone on record in the past he that he prefers the deflected ball, because it makes him a better passer.

Yep and Aaron Rodgers has stated that he has people over inflate their balls, that is his preference. I don't get all of the attention other than it the NFL.
01-22-2015 01:28 PM
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ken d Online
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RE: Belichick on deflated balls
(01-22-2015 01:23 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  
(01-22-2015 01:05 PM)ken d Wrote:  Some do, some don't. Many top NFL QB's have said they can't tell the difference, while others say they prefer an overinflated ball. Any scientific studies (and there aren't many, since this isn't a very earth shattering question) suggest that any effect on ball flight is negligible, and at best neutral on the question of whether those effects help or hinder the offense. Unless there is a placebo effect, where the quarterback believes it will help, there doesn't seem to be much meat on this sandwich.

I don't know where you are getting that, but nearly EVERY QB who has spoken on the issue has said they make a huge difference. Every one of them. The only difference is others have admitted to "doctoring" the balls, though none other than Brad Johnson have admitted to deflating it. And it is not about ball flight, again not sure where you are getting this. It is because a softer ball is easier to grip, which makes it easier to catch, and in many cases easier to throw. You don't even have to think hard about that one, if you have ever handled a football. And there is science behind it: same reason we have fingerprints. More surface area (a deflated ball has dimples and creates more surface area) makes it easier to grip. Exact same reason why we have fingerprints.

I'd love to see your data. Especially the data that shows that inflation improves offensive performance.
01-22-2015 01:35 PM
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ken d Online
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RE: Belichick on deflated balls
Perhaps somebody can answer this question for me. If differences in inflation pressure improve or hurt performance, why doesn't the NFL simply require that both teams play with the same balls, supplied by the league? Then nobody has an advantage. Why let each team play with their own footballs?
(This post was last modified: 01-22-2015 01:43 PM by ken d.)
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RE: Belichick on deflated balls
(01-22-2015 01:28 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  
(01-22-2015 12:56 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  Tom Brady has gone on record in the past he that he prefers the deflected ball, because it makes him a better passer.

Yep and Aaron Rodgers has stated that he has people over inflate their balls, that is his preference. I don't get all of the attention other than it the NFL.


Note Rodgers quote also includes the fact that he has really large hands, and thus the overinflated ball would also give him an advantage over other QB's if they had to use the same ball. But the main reason is fully inflated (or overinflated balls) travel further than ones with less air. Despite Ken's statement, this is rather well known, and why they heavily monitor kicker balls, as they used to overinflate them (as a punter when I played, I can't tell you how many times I popped a ball from overinflating them, trying to find the elasticity limit, as it made the balls sail further). So for him, an overinflated ball allows him to throw the ball that much further, or with that much more zip, to get into a tight window. Probably not easier for his receivers to catch, but he is talking from his own perspective.

There is certainly an advantage to be had from overinflating or underinflating depending on what you are trying to do.
01-22-2015 01:49 PM
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RE: Belichick on deflated balls
(01-22-2015 01:35 PM)ken d Wrote:  
(01-22-2015 01:23 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  
(01-22-2015 01:05 PM)ken d Wrote:  Some do, some don't. Many top NFL QB's have said they can't tell the difference, while others say they prefer an overinflated ball. Any scientific studies (and there aren't many, since this isn't a very earth shattering question) suggest that any effect on ball flight is negligible, and at best neutral on the question of whether those effects help or hinder the offense. Unless there is a placebo effect, where the quarterback believes it will help, there doesn't seem to be much meat on this sandwich.

I don't know where you are getting that, but nearly EVERY QB who has spoken on the issue has said they make a huge difference. Every one of them. The only difference is others have admitted to "doctoring" the balls, though none other than Brad Johnson have admitted to deflating it. And it is not about ball flight, again not sure where you are getting this. It is because a softer ball is easier to grip, which makes it easier to catch, and in many cases easier to throw. You don't even have to think hard about that one, if you have ever handled a football. And there is science behind it: same reason we have fingerprints. More surface area (a deflated ball has dimples and creates more surface area) makes it easier to grip. Exact same reason why we have fingerprints.

I'd love to see your data. Especially the data that shows that inflation improves offensive performance.

Ken, the data is right there. It is a scientific fact that more surface area increases grip. That is why we have fingerprints, and why receivers (and others) wear gloves with ridges, because they increase surface area. This is not "my data," this is ordinary data available everywhere. A deflated ball has a different shape when handled, as the ball will indent in, slightly to severely. This decreases the surface size of the ball, and comparatively increases the surface size of the hand. Thus it increases grip.

(01-22-2015 01:42 PM)ken d Wrote:  Perhaps somebody can answer this question for me. If differences in inflation pressure improve or hurt performance, why doesn't the NFL simply require that both teams play with the same balls, supplied by the league? Then nobody has an advantage. Why let each team play with their own footballs?

They do this for kickoffs. You can't really do this for game balls though, because "new" footballs are horrible to play with. Absolutely horrible. You'd see a lot more fumbling, and bogged down offense if teams had to use balls straight out of the package. So teams are allowed to play with the balls, and get some wear in. But they have to meet to certain standards, which these balls "did" when inspected before the game, then later were changed so they didn't. This is not an issue, in terms of balls out being out of standard, unless you specifically go in and alter them, as the Patriots did.
(This post was last modified: 01-22-2015 01:56 PM by adcorbett.)
01-22-2015 01:53 PM
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RE: Belichick on deflated balls
(01-22-2015 01:42 PM)ken d Wrote:  Perhaps somebody can answer this question for me. If differences in inflation pressure improve or hurt performance, why doesn't the NFL simply require that both teams play with the same balls, supplied by the league? Then nobody has an advantage. Why let each team play with their own footballs?

That seems to make sense. My guess is that teams like to doctor up their game balls in some manner that helps them, and it might be somewhat common.

Bucs QB Johnson paid to have footballs scuffed before SB 37

At the Super Bowl, the NFL had more than 100 game footballs. They were new, slick and supposedly under the league's watchful eye. Both Johnson and Gannon, the Raiders quarterback and a former teammate with the Minnesota Vikings, were concerned about losing their grip during the biggest game of their lives.

"Rich and I talked about it. The footballs needed to be worked in,'' Johnson said. "In years past, you heard Troy Aikman, John Elway and Steve Young complain about the balls being slick. Phil Simms, all of them. And basically we agreed on that if the balls could be - if we could work them in, we'd work them in.''

But neither player had any access to the footballs prior to the game.

"I never saw the footballs, I never touched the footballs,'' Johnson said. "I never got to touch them until game time. The first possession is the first time I touched the ball.''

But leaving nothing to chance, Johnson made sure the balls were scuffed and ready well before the Dixie Chicks sang the national anthem.

Johnson said he paid two ballboys working for the NFL a total of $7,500 to make sure the footballs were scuffed and broken in before the Super Bowl and they obliged. Johnson first revealed the secret payment to the Tampa Bay Times in 2012, just prior to the 10-year reunion of the Bucs' Super Bowl championship team.

Although neither player gained an advantage in this case, Johnson's admission shows to what length a quarterback may go to ensure the football meets his specifications prior to a big game.

The NFL is investigating why 11 of the 12 footballs used by the New England Patriots in Sunday's 45-7 win over the Colts were found to be inflated below league standards, accordiing to a report by ESPN.

Johnson's story began trending Wednesday when it was repeated on the Times website.

"The refs never complained about the footballs, the league never complained about the footballs,'' Johnson said Wednesday. "Rich Gannon never complained about the footballs. I talked to Rich this morning and he and I laughed about the whole thing being blown out of proportion.

"Somebody said, "Hey, we can work in the balls,' and I said, "Let's do it then. Work them in and prepare them the way you would normally prepare them. That was my only concern. Was the ball slick? Or could it be (broken) in.''

Co-hosting a show on Sirius XM NFL radio Wednesday, Gannon said that since Super Bowl XXXVII the league has allowed quarterbacks to practice with the footballs prior to the NFL title game.

"I think Peyton Manning and Tom Brady convinced them to change this (policy),'' Gannon said Wednesday.

Johnson said he had no preference about the inflation level of footballs during his career.

"I don't know anything about that. I don't know how that works,'' Johnson said. "You've got cold weather versus hot weather -- I don't know.

"I preferred to be in nice weather. I all was concerned about was is it raining and can I hold onto the ball? The first time I played with the glove was the (NFC) championship game. I played with a glove five times in my career and all of them were cold weather games.''

When Johnson began his career in the '90's, the home team controlled the footballs for regular-season games.

"Back in '95-96, if you went to play Kordell Stewart (in Pittsburgh), the balls were real slick,'' Johnson said. "If you played in St. Louis against Kurt Warner, the balls were real slick. If you played at Green Bay, the balls were worked in the way I loved them. If you played in Minnesota where I played, the balls were worked in. Those were the rules and they're still the rules. But back in the day, when you played at an opponent's field, you had to play with the balls the way they like them.

"When you play a regular season game, they just put a black dot on it with a Sharpie. And you play three games with the ball and then they discard it. You have 12 footballs and they have 12 footballs in the regular season. And then when you play in the Super Bowl, there's over 140 balls I think and no one got to see them. No one touches them and that's where it's at.''

The Bucs beat the Raiders 48-21 to win Super Bowl XXXVII. Johnson threw a pair of touchdowns to Keenan McCardell. Gannon was intercepted five times.

"I paid some guys off to get the balls right,'' Johnson said. "They took care of them.''

http://www.tampabay.com/blogs/bucs/bucs-...37/2214490
01-22-2015 02:01 PM
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RE: Belichick on deflated balls
(01-22-2015 01:53 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  But they have to meet to certain standards, which these balls "did" when inspected before the game, then later were changed so they didn't.

That's if you believe the NFL's spin that the refs tested each ball before the Pats-Colts game.

IMO, it's much more likely that the balls were underinflated to begin with (because that's much easier than deflating them on the sidelines where there is a camera on everything), and the refs just hand-waved the pregame inspection, maybe glanced at the balls or lightly squeezed a couple of them.
(This post was last modified: 01-22-2015 02:02 PM by Wedge.)
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ken d Online
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RE: Belichick on deflated balls
(01-22-2015 01:53 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  
(01-22-2015 01:35 PM)ken d Wrote:  
(01-22-2015 01:23 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  
(01-22-2015 01:05 PM)ken d Wrote:  Some do, some don't. Many top NFL QB's have said they can't tell the difference, while others say they prefer an overinflated ball. Any scientific studies (and there aren't many, since this isn't a very earth shattering question) suggest that any effect on ball flight is negligible, and at best neutral on the question of whether those effects help or hinder the offense. Unless there is a placebo effect, where the quarterback believes it will help, there doesn't seem to be much meat on this sandwich.

I don't know where you are getting that, but nearly EVERY QB who has spoken on the issue has said they make a huge difference. Every one of them. The only difference is others have admitted to "doctoring" the balls, though none other than Brad Johnson have admitted to deflating it. And it is not about ball flight, again not sure where you are getting this. It is because a softer ball is easier to grip, which makes it easier to catch, and in many cases easier to throw. You don't even have to think hard about that one, if you have ever handled a football. And there is science behind it: same reason we have fingerprints. More surface area (a deflated ball has dimples and creates more surface area) makes it easier to grip. Exact same reason why we have fingerprints.

I'd love to see your data. Especially the data that shows that inflation improves offensive performance.

Ken, the data is right there. It is a scientific fact that more surface area increases grip. That is why we have fingerprints, and why receivers (and others) wear gloves with ridges, because they increase surface area. This is not "my data," this is ordinary data available everywhere. A deflated ball has a different shape when handled, as the ball will indent in, slightly to severely. This decreases the surface size of the ball, and comparatively increases the surface size of the hand. Thus it increases grip.

(01-22-2015 01:42 PM)ken d Wrote:  Perhaps somebody can answer this question for me. If differences in inflation pressure improve or hurt performance, why doesn't the NFL simply require that both teams play with the same balls, supplied by the league? Then nobody has an advantage. Why let each team play with their own footballs?

They do this for kickoffs. You can't really do this for game balls though, because "new" footballs are horrible to play with. Absolutely horrible. You'd see a lot more fumbling, and bogged down offense if teams had to use balls straight out of the package. So teams are allowed to play with the balls, and get some wear in. But they have to meet to certain standards, which these balls "did" when inspected before the game, then later were changed so they didn't. This is not an issue, in terms of balls out being out of standard, unless you specifically go in and alter them, as the Patriots did.

I can only assume you are not a scientist.

As for game balls, is the NFL incapable of supplying footballs that already have sufficient wear instead of new balls straight out of the box? The point is, why not have both teams play with the exact same balls? Then it doesn't matter how much they are inflated, and it also means that the amount of inflation is controlled by the league and not individual teams (or individual QB's).
01-22-2015 02:08 PM
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RE: Belichick on deflated balls
(01-22-2015 02:01 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(01-22-2015 01:53 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  But they have to meet to certain standards, which these balls "did" when inspected before the game, then later were changed so they didn't.

That's if you believe the NFL's spin that the refs tested each ball before the Pats-Colts game.

That much I will concede. But technically if they were not inspected, they were considered to meet the standards. Or something like that.
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