How bad is it that Bill Belichick stands up to lie to the press with "#FLEXBALL" in the backdrop? (In this case, it's intended to refer to promote Gillette's product line".

As competent as Belichick has proven to be at both coaching and directing his team to cheat in extra special ways that few others have thought of, I cannot imagine that the Patriots are cheating in this case without his approval.

I resent the fact that I have to listen to his long-winded explanation of how this wasn't his fault. He should practice his "oopsies, busted again" speech and save everyone loads of time.

Actually, John Madden and several other former coaches have made pretty strong cases that the Golden Boy, Tom Brady, and not Belicheck, is the one to blame here. They argued that based on past personal experience, any manipulation of footballs HAS to come from a request from the QB, or it would never happen. Madden thinks it's highly plausible that Belicheck knew nothing, and that this could have been simply been accomplished by Brady and the team equipment guy.

Arent the balls inspected by the refs? What were they doing?

Someone who knows more than I do about NFL procedures perhaps can answer this question. Are the "ball boys" on the sideline NFL employees or are they employed by the team? In college they are with each school but I would think that the NFL would use neutral people to hold each team's balls. Getting them from the officials after they have been checked and in their possession during the game it seems like it would be harder to deflate a ball if they are NFL employed.

(01-22-2015 09:58 AM)Antarius Wrote:  Arent the balls inspected by the refs? What were they doing?

Yes, they are inspected 2 hours before the game, then inexplicably returned to the home team's equipment room for "safe" keeping.

BTW, while not excusing the Pats for this (and they should be harshly punished if proven to be their doing), but does anyone think this would have altered the outcome of the game in the slightest? Andrew Luck and the Colts receivers were using the exact same deflated balls that Brady and the Pats were using.

(01-22-2015 10:08 AM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  

(01-22-2015 09:58 AM)Antarius Wrote:  Arent the balls inspected by the refs? What were they doing?

Yes, they are inspected 2 hours before the game, then inexplicably returned to the home team's equipment room for "safe" keeping.

BTW, while not excusing the Pats for this (and they should be harshly punished if proven to be their doing), but does anyone think this would have altered the outcome of the game in the slightest? Andrew Luck and the Colts receivers were using the exact same deflated balls that Brady and the Pats were using.

Doesn't each team use their own "referee approved" balls?

(01-22-2015 10:13 AM)Tiki Owl Wrote:  

(01-22-2015 10:08 AM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  

(01-22-2015 09:58 AM)Antarius Wrote:  Arent the balls inspected by the refs? What were they doing?

Yes, they are inspected 2 hours before the game, then inexplicably returned to the home team's equipment room for "safe" keeping.

BTW, while not excusing the Pats for this (and they should be harshly punished if proven to be their doing), but does anyone think this would have altered the outcome of the game in the slightest? Andrew Luck and the Colts receivers were using the exact same deflated balls that Brady and the Pats were using.

Doesn't each team use their own "referee approved" balls?

Correct. Each team provides 12 balls for their offense to use. They have the week before the game to break-in those balls however they see fit.

(01-22-2015 09:58 AM)Antarius Wrote:  Arent the balls inspected by the refs? What were they doing?

I think their job - inspecting the balls prior to the Patriots cheating by then altering them again.

Expect their job to change. The "Brady/Belichick Rule" will mean that one of the referees - trained by Pinkerton - will be assigned to guard the balls between the time that they are inspected and the beginning of the game.

NFL officials must be going nuts over this. Yes, it didn't impact the outcome, Belichick may or may not have known anything about this and the NFL policy of inspecting the balls 2hrs and 15 minutes before game time and then returning them to each team is bizarre, but the fact remains this is the last thing the NFL needs in front of their biggest game of the year after a season filled with controversy and questionable League response to those controversies.

If the investigation shows this was a deliberate act, regardless of who in the Pats organization was responsible, the League should come down hard on the Pats, as repeat offenders. If they really wanted to make a statement that teams have to follow the rules, suspend both Brady and Belichick for the big game. Of course, that will never happen. However, I wouldn't be surprised to see significant fines and a loss of draft picks, not that the Pats seem to need them

I imagine every team does things like this every game, and I certainly don't care for the Patriots. Maybe they're a little worse or maybe they just get caught more because of reputation. I doubt it would have affected the Colts blowout, but the Ravens game was close. Who knows. And I'm sure Tom Brady was involved, because it's his preferences they'd cater to, but that doesn't mean that Belichick wouldn't be the one to get it done, and the buck stops with him anyway

(01-22-2015 09:54 AM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  Actually, John Madden and several other former coaches have made pretty strong cases that the Golden Boy, Tom Brady, and not Belicheck, is the one to blame here. They argued that based on past personal experience, any manipulation of footballs HAS to come from a request from the QB, or it would never happen. Madden thinks it's highly plausible that Belicheck knew nothing, and that this could have been simply been accomplished by Brady and the team equipment guy.

I agree that the hows and whys of how the Patriots cheat is delegated. I have to believe that the authorization to do so when necessary requires explicit permission or direction from Belichick. I doubt if Brady asked "hey coach, can we cheat by deflating the balls this week?" But, Belichick doesn't impress me as the kind of leader that would get caught unaware whether or not they were doing something that could expose them to penalties without knowing what the risks of possible punishment were likely to be. When you have a history of apologetically cheating, I tend to think that you become good enough to follow at least some minimal risk management during the process... after all, the mafia is called "organized crime" for a reason.

Really, the biggest surprise to me out of this whole affair is that Bellichick has two "i"s and only one "e", at least according to CNN.

(01-22-2015 10:26 AM)picrig Wrote:  

(01-22-2015 10:13 AM)Tiki Owl Wrote:  

(01-22-2015 10:08 AM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  

(01-22-2015 09:58 AM)Antarius Wrote:  Arent the balls inspected by the refs? What were they doing?

Yes, they are inspected 2 hours before the game, then inexplicably returned to the home team's equipment room for "safe" keeping.

BTW, while not excusing the Pats for this (and they should be harshly punished if proven to be their doing), but does anyone think this would have altered the outcome of the game in the slightest? Andrew Luck and the Colts receivers were using the exact same deflated balls that Brady and the Pats were using.

Doesn't each team use their own "referee approved" balls?

Correct. Each team provides 12 balls for their offense to use. They have the week before the game to break-in those balls however they see fit.

Eh, not so fast. First of all, it seems that Tom Brady is the one that pushed for this rule (apparently so that he can then break it). But, the Patriots were not using referee approved balls. They were using altered balls, not balls in the same state as they were when they were approved.

For Pete's sake, why don't the officials control the game balls at all times, and dole them out throughout the game from a single set?
Could you imagine in baseball if the umpires said "OK, we will use these balls when the Yanks are batting, and these other ones when the Red Sox are batting, and we will give each team a couple of hours to mess with them before the game..."?
(I know that slow-pitch softball uses a different balls for each team -- which is one of the stupidest things about slow-pitch softball.)

Stop putting any share of the blame on the "refs." First, only a couple of them actually handle the ball for any length of time. Even at that, they rarely, if ever, grip it like a center, quarterback, receiver or defensive back. If you're just cradling the ball to toss it over to the ball boy and get the replacement to place on the field, and you're doing it all in a rush because of the no-huddle offenses employed these days, you're not going to notice the 2# difference.

But if you're Tom Brady or his center, you're definitely going to notice it when you grip the ball tightly. If it turns out that the Patriots ball boy was taking orders from Brady to deflate the balls, then Brady should be suspended for a substantial number of games next season. How is it that different from PEDs? You're breaking a rule to gain an advantage on the playing field, whether it's a needle you're putting into your arm to juice yourself up or a needle you're putting into a ball to juice it down.

(01-22-2015 10:30 AM)Tomball Owl Wrote:  If they really wanted to make a statement that teams have to follow the rules, suspend both Brady and Belichick for the big game. Of course, that will never happen.

I would love to see that happen, but, you're right, it won't.

Maybe just ban both from going into the HoF, or at least mandate that a scarlet letter be attached to their likenesses there. Again, that won't happen either. They'll get a small fine and will otherwise laugh at the NFL all the way to the bank.

(01-22-2015 12:31 PM)ColOwl Wrote:  Stop putting any share of the blame on the "refs."

Rules, not refs. If you can alter procedures to prevent this sort of thing, then the NFL can't get embarrassed by the likes of Belichick/Brady.

(01-22-2015 12:31 PM)ColOwl Wrote:  How is it that different from PEDs? You're breaking a rule to gain an advantage on the playing field, whether it's a needle you're putting into your arm to juice yourself up or a needle you're putting into a ball to juice it down.

Good analogy, but in the case of PEDs, you can't send officials off into the locker rooms and bedrooms of the players. With balls, it's easier to manage their trustworthiness by having officials maintain custody of them. And, get rid of the rule that lets teams use their "own" balls - Brady has proven that he's unworthy of getting such a guideline passed to begin with.

Didn't Charlie McClendon accuse Al Conover of using a deflated ball in a field goal attempt?

(01-22-2015 01:00 PM)I45owl Wrote:  

(01-22-2015 12:31 PM)ColOwl Wrote:  Stop putting any share of the blame on the "refs."

Rules, not refs. If you can alter procedures to prevent this sort of thing, then the NFL can't get embarrassed by the likes of Belichick/Brady.

Thank you! I wasn't blaming the officials at all, but I was certainly questioning the procedures that they are told to follow.

(01-22-2015 01:00 PM)I45owl Wrote:  And, get rid of the rule that lets teams use their "own" balls

It's almost unbelievable that such a rule exists in the first place.

(01-22-2015 02:32 PM)georgewebb Wrote:  

(01-22-2015 01:00 PM)I45owl Wrote:  And, get rid of the rule that lets teams use their "own" balls

It's almost unbelievable that such a rule exists in the first place.

Maybe, maybe not.

Pro Football Talk Wrote:In 2006, Brady and Peyton Manning successfully lobbied the league to let every team provide its own footballs to use on offense. Prior to that, it was always the home team that supplied the footballs, which meant that road team quarterbacks didn’t get to try the footballs out until pregame warmups.

(01-22-2015 02:32 PM)georgewebb Wrote:  

(01-22-2015 01:00 PM)I45owl Wrote:  And, get rid of the rule that lets teams use their "own" balls

It's almost unbelievable that such a rule exists in the first place.

I sure wouldn't want some other guys messing with my balls!