Clicked over to the SEC conference board for funzies and noted this discussion:
http://csnbbs.com/thread-721823.html

It is interesting to see the differences of what P5 conference posters discuss on this issue vs what we discuss here. Check it out. Wonder what they think of Rice these days?

Well, Rice did at least get a mention as a possible travel partner in a Texas to the Big 10 scenario.

http://csnbbs.com/thread-721823-post-116...id11663268

(01-21-2015 11:40 PM)GoodOwl Wrote:  Clicked over to the SEC conference board for funzies and noted this discussion:
http://csnbbs.com/thread-721823.html

It is interesting to see the differences of what P5 conference posters discuss on this issue vs what we discuss here. Check it out. Wonder what they think of Rice these days?

(01-22-2015 08:44 AM)rice-76-03-06 Wrote:  Well, Rice did at least get a mention as a possible travel partner in a Texas to the Big 10 scenario.

http://csnbbs.com/thread-721823-post-116...id11663268

(01-21-2015 11:40 PM)GoodOwl Wrote:  Clicked over to the SEC conference board for funzies and noted this discussion:
http://csnbbs.com/thread-721823.html

It is interesting to see the differences of what P5 conference posters discuss on this issue vs what we discuss here. Check it out. Wonder what they think of Rice these days?

I've often thought that (travel partner with UT to PAC or B1G) is the most likely scenario in which we get a P5 invite. And by most likely, I mean that in the "so you're saying there's a chance!" sense.

What I read from that discussion as the top 5 most important things in the P5:

1. Revenues
2. Revenues
3. Revenues
4. AD budget
5. Competitiveness

Also an acknowledgement that TV pulls the strings behind the scenes.

(01-22-2015 11:47 AM)owl95 Wrote:  What I read from that discussion as the top 5 most important things in the P5:

1. Revenues
2. Revenues
3. Revenues
4. AD budget
5. Competitiveness

Also an acknowledgement that TV pulls the strings behind the scenes.

Of course, this is what you'd get coming from fans and alumni. In reality, revenues is certainly the #1 most important determinant, but location (TV, recruiting market attractiveness) and academics also play into the discussion at the conference level....and this is where Rice rises to the top (or near to it) amongst the G5s. Yes, we have to show a dramatic improvement in revenues and continue to improve our competitiveness (it's why I keep harping on the need to start competing with, if not beating, Top 50 opponents), but if we do so, we'll be well positioned for the next round, whenever that may be.

(01-22-2015 11:47 AM)owl95 Wrote:  What I read from that discussion as the top 5 most important things in the P5:

1. Revenues
2. Revenues
3. Revenues
4. AD budget
5. Competitiveness

Also an acknowledgement that TV pulls the strings behind the scenes.

(01-22-2015 11:58 AM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  Of course, this is what you'd get coming from fans and alumni. In reality, revenues is certainly the #1 most important determinant, but location (TV, recruiting market attractiveness) and academics also play into the discussion at the conference level....and this is where Rice rises to the top (or near to it) amongst the G5s. Yes, we have to show a dramatic improvement in revenues and continue to improve our competitiveness (it's why I keep harping on the need to start competing with, if not beating, Top 50 opponents), but if we do so, we'll be well positioned for the next round, whenever that may be.

Yeah, I think you're both right. It was just interesting to get outside our views a bit and see the discussion from a completely different perspective. I was actually surprised how often academics was mentioned by various posters as being a factor somewhere in the decision. But only once (and I didn't even catch it-- kudos to Rice 76-03-06, the poster above who did see us mentioned once) did Rice even get a mention in that whole thing. My point being that as far as National consciousness of the average fan, which Walt and I have kept bringing up as important to us, we aren't seeming to enter into it yet. They spent a lot of time talking about Texas, Texas Tech, Baylor, TCU. Even SMU & Houston, but Rice was only mentioned one time in that whole thing. They even discussed Vanderbilt has a standing offer from the BiG to leave the SEC, but has declined it, in that or one of the other realignment threads their moderator started on their board. That was something I never heard before.

That's why I think turning Opportunity Games into Signature Wins, plural is vital to getting the other changes and improvements here noticed and examined closer by others. I saw someone mention in another thread we are supposed to also play Texas A&M again in 2017, but it is not currently listed on our Future Schedules page. If so, that would be 6, not 5, Opportunity Games on Rice's schedule over the next 4 years. We don't have very many chances, and need to start converting them to wins to get above the .000 percentage we are at. Otherwise, we just won't register no matter how much better we think we are doing than before.

eta: added SMU, Vanderbilt info above

It'll never happen guys.

(01-22-2015 12:54 PM)Afflicted Wrote:  It'll never happen guys.

What? We'll never get a Signature Win?

Always good to see things from a different perspective. Thanks for sharing.

However, the good news for Rice is that this will not be decided on message boards, court of public opinion, popularity, etc.

It will be decided behind closed doors with a small group of senior people from both conferences and universities. Compared to the stakeholders above, all of them know Rice and what Rice is (and is not). We also have the personal connections to the right people at the right levels.

As has been stated ad nauseam on other threads, for any of that to matter, we need to a) Win (signature wins count even more) b) show commitment and $$ to athletics and c) bring something incremental to the table that helps the P5 conference which in Rice's case, is academics and H-Town market for TV and recruiting.

I continue to be optimistic that if the P5 consolidation mojo could slow down a few years to help JK and team catch-up from the decades of Rice neglect, we have materially more than the Jim Carey 'so your saying we have a chance?' to a better lot in life. Success at Texas private schools like TCU and Baylor and success for P5 academic privates are both positive for our case. If it moves fast (again), we are on the outside looking in. But all-things being equal, I believe a P5 conference would prefer an academic private bringing a big city/market with athletic momentum over the usual suspects at directional state schools and/or city/commuter schools.

(01-22-2015 01:03 PM)GoodOwl Wrote:  

(01-22-2015 12:54 PM)Afflicted Wrote:  It'll never happen guys.

What? We'll never get a Signature Win?

Invited to a P5. We'll always get our share of signature wins here and there.

(01-22-2015 03:10 PM)Afflicted Wrote:  

(01-22-2015 01:03 PM)GoodOwl Wrote:  

(01-22-2015 12:54 PM)Afflicted Wrote:  It'll never happen guys.

What? We'll never get a Signature Win?

Invited to a P5. We'll always get our share of signature wins here and there.

1. Please elaborate. Right now, its a sweeping declaration with no backing
2. Still waiting for our first signature win in the DB era

(01-22-2015 03:10 PM)Afflicted Wrote:  

(01-22-2015 01:03 PM)GoodOwl Wrote:  

(01-22-2015 12:54 PM)Afflicted Wrote:  It'll never happen guys.

What? We'll never get a Signature Win?

Invited to a P5. We'll always get our share of signature wins here and there.

Ok. I wasn't completely sure which you were saying.

But you really feel that's it, Rice will never again get invited to play in a P5-type conference?

(01-22-2015 03:47 PM)GoodOwl Wrote:  

(01-22-2015 03:10 PM)Afflicted Wrote:  

(01-22-2015 01:03 PM)GoodOwl Wrote:  

(01-22-2015 12:54 PM)Afflicted Wrote:  It'll never happen guys.

What? We'll never get a Signature Win?

Invited to a P5. We'll always get our share of signature wins here and there.

Ok. I wasn't completely sure which you were saying.

But you really feel that's it, Rice will never again get invited to play in a P5-type conference?

To say never is a dire and unnecessary position to take. The last time I checked you guys were in Houston, have excellent academic standing, have maintained cordial and cooperative relations with Texas, were AAU, fielded a stellar baseball program, and as a second to Texas would solve some essential issues.

Should Texas ever commit to a major conference (other than the SEC which has a large piece of the Houston market via A&M) your pairing with Texas would be a plus. Tech is not Big 10 material. They may become acceptable to the PAC as bridge into your state from the west, but I couldn't see them ever logistically fitting into the ACC. However for a conference looking to gain access to Texas markets without taking the Longhorns T.C.U. and Rice would have to be considered for access to two key city markets. For conferences needing a pair of AAU candidates for expansion (the Big 10, and possibly the ACC) Rice becomes a very nice pairing for the Horns.

Does that make you guys a slam dunk? Far from it. But the improvement of facilities can only raise your profile. Academically there is not a rival for consideration outside of Texas. But, you aren't really looking to compete with them, just compliment them.

Eventually the major pieces of realignment will be decided. Let's assume the Big 12 is parsed after, or near, the expiration of the present GOR. Kansas is a natural fit for the Big 10. Oklahoma has open options. Texas can pick and choose. West Virginia reconnects the ACC's footprint and compliments Pitt and Louisville. Outside of that everything is up in the air. If the SEC lands one of the Oklahoma's they don't need T.C.U. to gain DFW. They may need a second school to pair with their Oklahoma school and if West Virginia is claimed by the ACC (which in spite of history their addition makes sense) then perhaps the SEC looks to Baylor. The Bears are the oldest school in the Lone Star state, they have a rivalry with A&M, and they are competitive in all areas of sports while being a slight upgrade to the SEC's academic mean.

That means that anyone seeking Texas will likely want a second Texas school. So here are the options that I see.

If the Big 10 lands Kansas and Texas and wants Oklahoma, in spite of their academic deficiencies, who else would they ask? Rice would compliment not only Texas but Northwestern.

If the ACC wants into Texas and offers Texas the much ballyhooed Notre Dame deal and the Horns want travel mates then perhaps T.C.U. and Rice join in full to round out the ACC at 16 full members and two partials.

If the PAC doesn't land the Horns and wants into the Texas market then taking T.C.U., Texas Tech, and a Houston based team makes sense for them if they are to cover the markets within the state. If that's the case the Rice is in a direct competition with the Cougars. All things being equal and the PAC's preference for academic standing that places you guys back into the mix.

So while these scenarios may have some degree of likelihood in playing out in this or some similar manner Rice has its hat in the ring. Whatever you can do to maximize your profile will be a big plus, but either way you aren't in dire straights either. Of the remaining P4 conferences (should the Big 12 be absorbed) only the SEC is probably out of the realm of possibility for you Owls.

The only scenario in which I see you fail to make consideration for a P5 position is if the Big 12 holds and or possibly expands. The Big 12 is a Texas saturated conference like the old SWC and there it wouldn't be good business to make further additions from the state.

(01-22-2015 03:13 PM)Antarius Wrote:  

(01-22-2015 03:10 PM)Afflicted Wrote:  

(01-22-2015 01:03 PM)GoodOwl Wrote:  

(01-22-2015 12:54 PM)Afflicted Wrote:  It'll never happen guys.

What? We'll never get a Signature Win?

Invited to a P5. We'll always get our share of signature wins here and there.

1. Please elaborate. Right now, its a sweeping declaration with no backing
2. Still waiting for our first signature win in the DB era

Houston in 2008 and Marshall in 2013. A "signature win" doesn't have to be an unexpected win against a P5 member. Beating Purdue was also a "signature win."

As for not ever getting into a P5 conference, the reasons it will never happen are glaringly obvious and have been listed to death on this board.

(01-22-2015 04:57 PM)JRsec Wrote:  The Bears are the oldest school in the Lone Star state, they have a rivalry with A&M, and they are competitive in all areas of sports while being a slight upgrade to the SEC's academic mean.

The first part of that brings a chuckle - "they have a rivalry with A$M". That rivalry wasn't too far removed from turning bloody in the last couple of years before TAMU bolted the XII. It may be that all things will be forgotten a couple of years removed from separation, but it had taken a pretty nasty turn. It's already apparent that Texas and TAMU will avoid each at all costs at this stage. The second is reminiscent of the MOB's performance at Texas a few years ago... TAMU's departure raised the average IQ of both the XII and the SEC. Thirty years ago, I think it would be ridiculous to view Baylor as a program that would upgrade SEC academics. Baylor has made huge strides since then, IMHO.

Thank you for your perspective. I think it's a big stretch to think Rice will get to a P5, but it's a goal that's worthy to have.

(01-22-2015 06:19 PM)Afflicted Wrote:  

(01-22-2015 03:13 PM)Antarius Wrote:  

(01-22-2015 03:10 PM)Afflicted Wrote:  

(01-22-2015 01:03 PM)GoodOwl Wrote:  

(01-22-2015 12:54 PM)Afflicted Wrote:  It'll never happen guys.

What? We'll never get a Signature Win?

Invited to a P5. We'll always get our share of signature wins here and there.

1. Please elaborate. Right now, its a sweeping declaration with no backing
2. Still waiting for our first signature win in the DB era

Houston in 2008 and Marshall in 2013. A "signature win" doesn't have to be an unexpected win against a P5 member. Beating Purdue was also a "signature win."

As for not ever getting into a P5 conference, the reasons it will never happen are glaringly obvious and have been listed to death on this board.

Sorry, but they were NOT signature wins. The wins you mention above were certainly important to our program (save for Purdue???), but not to anyone outside of Rice or our conference. A signature win is widely perceived as one that garners national attention (and helps change the perception of the program) and, consequently, necessarily is one against a prominent and widely perceived perennial football power.

As for the possibility of a future invite into a P5, we certainly have work to do, but it is by no means an impossibility. I can tell you from personal conversations that David Leebron, Joe Karlgaard and most on our BOT do not think it will never happen. In fact, they are united in their effort to do what it takes to make it a realistic possibility. Of course, there are no guarantees, and it will require a lot of things falling in place to our benefit (as it did for TCU), but there is going to be further P5 realignment, and we need to position ourselves as best as possible for that occurrence.

(01-22-2015 04:57 PM)JRsec Wrote:  To say never is a dire and unnecessary position to take. The last time I checked you guys were in Houston, have excellent academic standing, have maintained cordial and cooperative relations with Texas, were AAU, fielded a stellar baseball program, and as a second to Texas would solve some essential issues.

Should Texas ever commit to a major conference (other than the SEC which has a large piece of the Houston market via A&M) your pairing with Texas would be a plus. Tech is not Big 10 material. They may become acceptable to the PAC as bridge into your state from the west, but I couldn't see them ever logistically fitting into the ACC. However for a conference looking to gain access to Texas markets without taking the Longhorns T.C.U. and Rice would have to be considered for access to two key city markets. For conferences needing a pair of AAU candidates for expansion (the Big 10, and possibly the ACC) Rice becomes a very nice pairing for the Horns.

Does that make you guys a slam dunk? Far from it. But the improvement of facilities can only raise your profile. Academically there is not a rival for consideration outside of Texas. But, you aren't really looking to compete with them, just compliment them.

Eventually the major pieces of realignment will be decided. Let's assume the Big 12 is parsed after, or near, the expiration of the present GOR. Kansas is a natural fit for the Big 10. Oklahoma has open options. Texas can pick and choose. West Virginia reconnects the ACC's footprint and compliments Pitt and Louisville. Outside of that everything is up in the air. If the SEC lands one of the Oklahoma's they don't need T.C.U. to gain DFW. They may need a second school to pair with their Oklahoma school and if West Virginia is claimed by the ACC (which in spite of history their addition makes sense) then perhaps the SEC looks to Baylor. The Bears are the oldest school in the Lone Star state, they have a rivalry with A&M, and they are competitive in all areas of sports while being a slight upgrade to the SEC's academic mean.

That means that anyone seeking Texas will likely want a second Texas school. So here are the options that I see:

If the Big 10 lands Kansas and Texas and wants Oklahoma, in spite of their academic deficiencies, who else would they ask? Rice would compliment not only Texas but Northwestern.

Fixed the problem having accidentally put Illinois in both east and west Divisions (missed it with all the coding required for the cool little icons):

BiG
East Division
Indiana
Illinois/Northwestern
Maryland
Michigan
Michigan State
Ohio State
Penn State
Purdue
Rutgers

West Division
Illinois/Northwestern
Iowa
Kansas
Minnesota
Nebraska
Oklahoma
Rice
Texas
Wisconsin

(01-22-2015 04:57 PM)JRsec Wrote:  If the ACC wants into Texas and offers Texas the much ballyhooed Notre Dame deal and the Horns want travel mates then perhaps T.C.U. and Rice join in full to round out the ACC at 16 full members and two partials.

ACC
Atlantic Division
Boston College
Clemson
Fla State
Louisville
NC State
Notre Dame*
Pittsburgh
Syracuse
Wake Forest

Coastal Division
Duke
Georgia Tech
Miami
North Carolina
Rice
TCU
Texas*
Virginia
Virginia Tech

*partial member

(01-22-2015 04:57 PM)JRsec Wrote:  If the PAC doesn't land the Horns and wants into the Texas market then taking T.C.U., Texas Tech, and a Houston based team makes sense for them if they are to cover the markets within the state. If that's the case the Rice is in a direct competition with the Cougars. All things being equal and the PAC's preference for academic standing that places you guys back into the mix.

PAC
North Division
California
Colorado
Oregon
Oregon State
Stanford
Utah
Washington
Washington State

South Division
Arizona
Arizona State
Houston
Rice
Texas Tech
TCU/Notre Dame
UCLA
USC

eta: removed BYU/Baylor and added in alternate Notre Dame for PAC religious Hypocrisy purposes as per FrizzyOwl's later post.

(01-22-2015 04:57 PM)JRsec Wrote:  So while these scenarios may have some degree of likelihood in playing out in this or some similar manner Rice has its hat in the ring. Whatever you can do to maximize your profile will be a big plus, but either way you aren't in dire straights either. Of the remaining P4 conferences (should the Big 12 be absorbed) only the SEC is probably out of the realm of possibility for you Owls.

The only scenario in which I see you fail to make consideration for a P5 position is if the Big 12 holds and or possibly expands. The Big 12 is a Texas saturated conference like the old SWC and there it wouldn't be good business to make further additions from the state.

Thanks for that post, JRsec. I appreciate providing your insights here.

Here's the map:

Didn't the Oklahoma legislature (or powerful politicians therein) say that Oklahoma could not move conferences without also taking Oklahoma State along with it ... ... similar to how Baylor was green-lighted from the SWC into the Big 12?

(01-22-2015 06:43 PM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  

(01-22-2015 06:19 PM)Afflicted Wrote:  

(01-22-2015 03:13 PM)Antarius Wrote:  

(01-22-2015 03:10 PM)Afflicted Wrote:  

(01-22-2015 01:03 PM)GoodOwl Wrote:  What? We'll never get a Signature Win?

Invited to a P5. We'll always get our share of signature wins here and there.

1. Please elaborate. Right now, its a sweeping declaration with no backing
2. Still waiting for our first signature win in the DB era

Houston in 2008 and Marshall in 2013. A "signature win" doesn't have to be an unexpected win against a P5 member. Beating Purdue was also a "signature win."

As for not ever getting into a P5 conference, the reasons it will never happen are glaringly obvious and have been listed to death on this board.

Sorry, but they were NOT signature wins. The wins you mention above were certainly important to our program (save for Purdue???), but not to anyone outside of Rice or our conference. A signature win is widely perceived as one that garners national attention (and helps change the perception of the program) and, consequently, necessarily is one against a prominent and widely perceived perennial football power.

As for the possibility of a future invite into a P5, we certainly have work to do, but it is by no means an impossibility. I can tell you from personal conversations that David Leebron, Joe Karlgaard and most on our BOT do not think it will never happen. In fact, they are united in their effort to do what it takes to make it a realistic possibility. Of course, there are no guarantees, and it will require a lot of things falling in place to our benefit (as it did for TCU), but there is going to be further P5 realignment, and we need to position ourselves as best as possible for that occurrence.

Your definition of signature win is too narrow. It's what I would call a major upset. Fred Goldsmith got one against Baylor in 1992 and Ken Hatfield got his against Texas in 1994. By your definition, Bailff doesn't have one yet, but he shouldn't be held to a higher standard than past Rice football coaches. Bailiff certainly does have a number of big wins.

And sure, I agree Rice needs to keep building for the future, if not for a P5 invitation, just to keep up with everyone else and not be lost into oblivion.