I look around college football and think, wow if that league could have stuck together that would be an awesome league today. I'm well aware of why they had to break up and don't blame Arkansas nor UT and aTm for doing what they had to do but man would that be a tough league. With SMU, Baylor, and Houston all sporting new stadia and renovations to just about everyone PLUS Houston and SMU ponying up (pun intended) for top assistants to take over their programs the future is bright for just about all of the former members of the old SWC. It would be interesting to speculate how the league would have ended up this year.
My Guess:
1 TCU
2 Baylor
3 Arkansas
4 A&M
5 Texas
6 Texas Tech
7 Houston
8 SMU
9 Rice

(01-15-2015 04:00 PM)Big Ron Buckeye Wrote:  I look around college football and think, wow if that league could have stuck together that would be an awesome league today. I'm well aware of why they had to break up and don't blame Arkansas nor UT and aTm for doing what they had to do but man would that be a tough league. With SMU, Baylor, and Houston all sporting new stadia and renovations to just about everyone PLUS Houston and SMU ponying up (pun intended) for top assistants to take over their programs the future is bright for just about all of the former members of the old SWC. It would be interesting to speculate how the league would have ended up this year.
My Guess:
1 TCU
2 Baylor
3 Arkansas
4 A&M
5 Texas
6 Texas Tech
7 Houston
8 SMU
9 Rice

It would be borderline P5/P6, and not far below the current Big 12.

The SWC would not be as good as this proposed "Super Conference" circa 1990 (consider all sports):

North:
BC, Cincy, Pitt, Rutgers, Syracuse, Temple, Va Tech, West Virginia

South:
East Carolina, Florida State, Louisville, Memphis, Miami, South Carolina, S. Miss, Tulane

(01-15-2015 04:09 PM)ken d Wrote:  

(01-15-2015 04:00 PM)Big Ron Buckeye Wrote:  I look around college football and think, wow if that league could have stuck together that would be an awesome league today. I'm well aware of why they had to break up and don't blame Arkansas nor UT and aTm for doing what they had to do but man would that be a tough league. With SMU, Baylor, and Houston all sporting new stadia and renovations to just about everyone PLUS Houston and SMU ponying up (pun intended) for top assistants to take over their programs the future is bright for just about all of the former members of the old SWC. It would be interesting to speculate how the league would have ended up this year.
My Guess:
1 TCU
2 Baylor
3 Arkansas
4 A&M
5 Texas
6 Texas Tech
7 Houston
8 SMU
9 Rice

It would be borderline P5/P6, and not far below the current Big 12.

are you serious?

i think you set the bar way too high on what is a P5 conference.

On the one hand, I get the idea, but you have to ask: if the conference was around today, would these teams be as good as they are now?

Would the SWC have a 20+ million dollar TV deal that provided prime time exposure and made it competitive with the super-regional leagues like the ACC/SEC/PAC/B1G? My guess is that it would not since nobody outside Texas and Arkansas would care about its games. My guess is that it would be in a group of "midmajor" leagues with the Big 8 and Big East (assuming those still exist too) whose pay was less than the super-regional conferences but still better than ones like the MAC/MWC etc.

My guess is that the lack of money and exposure compared with the 'big boy" leagues in this scenario would lead to a lot of the same issues the SWC had that led to its demise: The best players in Texas choosing to go out of state to play, difficulty keeping good coaches and assistants from being poached, a general lack of commitment to facilities and attendance by most of the league and most important of all: not being competitive on the national scene, ie losing major bowl games and not having a viable team in the hunt for the national championship.

If thats so then I doubt a real modern SWC would be as vibrant and healthy as the one imagined of all these teams playing in separate leagues today.

The truth of the SWC issue is and always has been this: Texas is a big population oasis in the middle of an otherwise sparsely populated deserted. There have always only been two options for its teams:

1) Try to go it alone with a coalition of the smaller states around you.

2) Ally with the bigger super-regional conferences with access to the high population areas.

(01-15-2015 04:09 PM)ken d Wrote:  It would be borderline P5/P6, and not far below the current Big 12.

If the SWC had stayed together, what would have happened?

The SEC would still need a 12th member. My guess is they would have added West Virginia. So the Big East still would have collapsed when the ACC raided them, and it might have collapsed earlier.

The SEC never would have gone to 14, so Missouri would still be in the Big 12. But the Big 10 and PAC still would need 12th members. My guess is they still would have added Nebraska and Colorado, and those schools still would have accepted.

So the Big 8 would be:
Oklahoma
Oklahoma State
Kansas
Kansas State
Iowa State
Missouri

So the Big 8 would need to add members to stay a power conference. They could add Cincinnati, Louisville, and Memphis. That would be a superpower basketball conference, but the football side would be way behind the other 5. So my guess is that the political considerations tying OU and KU to OSU and KSU get thrown away and the SWC adds Oklahoma, Kansas, and Missouri to get to 12.

So it would still be a P5, but you'd have KSU, OSU, and ISU on the outside instead of Rice, Houston, and SMU.

(01-15-2015 04:09 PM)ken d Wrote:  

(01-15-2015 04:00 PM)Big Ron Buckeye Wrote:  I look around college football and think, wow if that league could have stuck together that would be an awesome league today. I'm well aware of why they had to break up and don't blame Arkansas nor UT and aTm for doing what they had to do but man would that be a tough league. With SMU, Baylor, and Houston all sporting new stadia and renovations to just about everyone PLUS Houston and SMU ponying up (pun intended) for top assistants to take over their programs the future is bright for just about all of the former members of the old SWC. It would be interesting to speculate how the league would have ended up this year.
My Guess:
1 TCU
2 Baylor
3 Arkansas
4 A&M
5 Texas
6 Texas Tech
7 Houston
8 SMU
9 Rice

It would be borderline P5/P6, and not far below the current Big 12.

Are you serious?

I know (or assume) that the distain is not for the SEC school Arkansas. So I can only assume it would be SMU, Houston, and Rice. the rest (plus WVU) is the B12 now!

Thanks..... Glad to see bias rings true no matter what. I would listen to an argument about Rice (though there are small private in the P5 now) but SMU and Houston both proved they can and did compete in that league.

While we need to continue to grow our participation in the hypothetical continued existence of the SWC would not degrade the league to the degree you think it would.

Texas
Texas A&M
Texas Tech
Houston
TCU
Baylor
SMU
Rice
Arkansas
+
Oklahoma
Oklahoma State
Tulane
LSU
Memphis

Would be a great SWC Conference!

(01-15-2015 04:00 PM)Big Ron Buckeye Wrote:  I look around college football and think, wow if that league could have stuck together that would be an awesome league today. I'm well aware of why they had to break up and don't blame Arkansas nor UT and aTm for doing what they had to do but man would that be a tough league. With SMU, Baylor, and Houston all sporting new stadia and renovations to just about everyone PLUS Houston and SMU ponying up (pun intended) for top assistants to take over their programs the future is bright for just about all of the former members of the old SWC. It would be interesting to speculate how the league would have ended up this year.
My Guess:
1 TCU
2 Baylor
3 Arkansas
4 A&M
5 Texas
6 Texas Tech
7 Houston
8 SMU
9 Rice

Not enough teams for a conference championship game and therefore would have missed the playoffs.

Not very...

15% of all recruits come from Texas (for all FBS schools). Assuming that 15% would hold true when only looking at P5 school recruits (couldn't find those numbers), that percentage suggests that the state has the recruiting resources to support almost 10 P5 programs (.15 X 65).

With 5 P5 programs, there is room to grow, based on the recruiting resources available. It's pretty clear that in lieu of that, schools from smaller recruiting pool states in the Big 12 and adjacent conferences have benefited from Texas recruiting.

With 15% of the nations recruits (nearly 1/6 of the entire cohort), the talent pool is there to support a Texas-centric P5 conference.

(01-15-2015 04:39 PM)GO Coogs GO!!! Wrote:  

(01-15-2015 04:09 PM)ken d Wrote:  

(01-15-2015 04:00 PM)Big Ron Buckeye Wrote:  I look around college football and think, wow if that league could have stuck together that would be an awesome league today. I'm well aware of why they had to break up and don't blame Arkansas nor UT and aTm for doing what they had to do but man would that be a tough league. With SMU, Baylor, and Houston all sporting new stadia and renovations to just about everyone PLUS Houston and SMU ponying up (pun intended) for top assistants to take over their programs the future is bright for just about all of the former members of the old SWC. It would be interesting to speculate how the league would have ended up this year.
My Guess:
1 TCU
2 Baylor
3 Arkansas
4 A&M
5 Texas
6 Texas Tech
7 Houston
8 SMU
9 Rice

It would be borderline P5/P6, and not far below the current Big 12.

Are you serious?

I know (or assume) that the distain is not for the SEC school Arkansas. So I can only assume it would be SMU, Houston, and Rice. the rest (plus WVU) is the B12 now!

Thanks..... Glad to see bias rings true no matter what. I would listen to an argument about Rice (though there are small private in the P5 now) but SMU and Houston both proved they can and did compete in that league.

While we need to continue to grow our participation in the hypothetical continued existence of the SWC would not degrade the league to the degree you think it would.

What possible reason could I have to be biased toward that league or any of its members? And, for that matter, why do you think I expressed any disdain for it? Just because I don't feel the awesomeness that you do?

We are, after all, talking about a purely hypothetical conference. That conference could only exist if two things happened. One, if those schools had stayed together beyond the point where their dysfunction caused them to break apart. Second, if they reassembled this year after years of recruiting in a different environment. If it were the first, I believe the football world would have passed them by, and their recruiting would have left most of them weaker than they are today. And if it were the second, it wouldn't matter because Hell would have frozen over already.

(01-15-2015 04:00 PM)Big Ron Buckeye Wrote:  I look around college football and think, wow if that league could have stuck together that would be an awesome league today. I'm well aware of why they had to break up and don't blame Arkansas nor UT and aTm for doing what they had to do but man would that be a tough league. With SMU, Baylor, and Houston all sporting new stadia and renovations to just about everyone PLUS Houston and SMU ponying up (pun intended) for top assistants to take over their programs the future is bright for just about all of the former members of the old SWC. It would be interesting to speculate how the league would have ended up this year.
My Guess:
1 TCU
2 Baylor
3 Arkansas
4 A&M
5 Texas
6 Texas Tech
7 Houston
8 SMU
9 Rice

You do realize that RICE went to a bowl game this season and SMU won exactly ONE game, right???

(01-15-2015 04:39 PM)GO Coogs GO!!! Wrote:  

(01-15-2015 04:09 PM)ken d Wrote:  

(01-15-2015 04:00 PM)Big Ron Buckeye Wrote:  I look around college football and think, wow if that league could have stuck together that would be an awesome league today. I'm well aware of why they had to break up and don't blame Arkansas nor UT and aTm for doing what they had to do but man would that be a tough league. With SMU, Baylor, and Houston all sporting new stadia and renovations to just about everyone PLUS Houston and SMU ponying up (pun intended) for top assistants to take over their programs the future is bright for just about all of the former members of the old SWC. It would be interesting to speculate how the league would have ended up this year.
My Guess:
1 TCU
2 Baylor
3 Arkansas
4 A&M
5 Texas
6 Texas Tech
7 Houston
8 SMU
9 Rice

It would be borderline P5/P6, and not far below the current Big 12.

Are you serious?

I know (or assume) that the distain is not for the SEC school Arkansas. So I can only assume it would be SMU, Houston, and Rice. the rest (plus WVU) is the B12 now!

Thanks..... Glad to see bias rings true no matter what. I would listen to an argument about Rice (though there are small private in the P5 now) but SMU and Houston both proved they can and did compete in that league.

While we need to continue to grow our participation in the hypothetical continued existence of the SWC would not degrade the league to the degree you think it would.

There is that H-Town solidarity. Thanks Coog.

Not to nitpick your statements, and I will give you that UH had some great SWC teams, but what did what did SMU really prove during their time in the SWC (since their glory days in the 1940's)? They proved they were willing to do anything and everything outside the rules. They cheated so unabashedly that it killed their program. They had some great mercenary teams, but I'm not sure what it proved exactly about their competitiveness.

As to the OP- yes, the SWC would be awesome still today. Especially for those of us that are Rice fans (and UH and SMU fans).

(01-15-2015 06:10 PM)BearcatJerry Wrote:  

(01-15-2015 04:00 PM)Big Ron Buckeye Wrote:  I look around college football and think, wow if that league could have stuck together that would be an awesome league today. I'm well aware of why they had to break up and don't blame Arkansas nor UT and aTm for doing what they had to do but man would that be a tough league. With SMU, Baylor, and Houston all sporting new stadia and renovations to just about everyone PLUS Houston and SMU ponying up (pun intended) for top assistants to take over their programs the future is bright for just about all of the former members of the old SWC. It would be interesting to speculate how the league would have ended up this year.
My Guess:
1 TCU
2 Baylor
3 Arkansas
4 A&M
5 Texas
6 Texas Tech
7 Houston
8 SMU
9 Rice

You do realize that RICE went to a bowl game this season and SMU won exactly ONE game, right???

No kidding. Rice 8-5 and beat Fresno St. in bowl 30-6 and SMU 1-11.

Years of suckitude takes some time to overcome I guess in the national perception.

(01-15-2015 04:00 PM)Big Ron Buckeye Wrote:  I look around college football and think, wow if that league could have stuck together that would be an awesome league today. I'm well aware of why they had to break up and don't blame Arkansas nor UT and aTm for doing what they had to do but man would that be a tough league. With SMU, Baylor, and Houston all sporting new stadia and renovations to just about everyone PLUS Houston and SMU ponying up (pun intended) for top assistants to take over their programs the future is bright for just about all of the former members of the old SWC. It would be interesting to speculate how the league would have ended up this year.
My Guess:
1 TCU
2 Baylor
3 Arkansas
4 A&M
5 Texas
6 Texas Tech
7 Houston
8 SMU
9 Rice

I have thought about it before and agree, I think it would be fantastic! Unfortunately, what's right and what happens are rarely the same. It would be a great league to watch.

^

Rice would not be winning much if they were in a top flight conference besides the ACC (arguably not a top flight conference but merely on the right side of the ViP rope).

(01-15-2015 04:32 PM)10thMountain Wrote:  On the one hand, I get the idea, but you have to ask: if the conference was around today, would these teams be as good as they are now?

Would the SWC have a 20+ million dollar TV deal that provided prime time exposure and made it competitive with the super-regional leagues like the ACC/SEC/PAC/B1G? My guess is that it would not since nobody outside Texas and Arkansas would care about its games. My guess is that it would be in a group of "midmajor" leagues with the Big 8 and Big East (assuming those still exist too) whose pay was less than the super-regional conferences but still better than ones like the MAC/MWC etc.

My guess is that the lack of money and exposure compared with the 'big boy" leagues in this scenario would lead to a lot of the same issues the SWC had that led to its demise: The best players in Texas choosing to go out of state to play, difficulty keeping good coaches and assistants from being poached, a general lack of commitment to facilities and attendance by most of the league and most important of all: not being competitive on the national scene, ie losing major bowl games and not having a viable team in the hunt for the national championship.

If thats so then I doubt a real modern SWC would be as vibrant and healthy as the one imagined of all these teams playing in separate leagues today.

The truth of the SWC issue is and always has been this: Texas is a big population oasis in the middle of an otherwise sparsely populated deserted. There have always only been two options for its teams:

1) Try to go it alone with a coalition of the smaller states around you.

2) Ally with the bigger super-regional conferences with access to the high population areas.

They would have needed to expand to a 12 team conference. Even back in the 80's/early 90's, this would be a great all-around league (football, basketball and more):

Arkansas
Baylor
BYU
Houston
Louisville
Memphis
SMU
TCU
Texas
Texas A&M
Texas Tech


That happens and the landscape of college sports may look different. Suddenly the SWC has a presence in the west, the Midwest and arguably nationally thanks to BYU.

It has a steady flow of good teams each year even with some deadweight.

IMO thats still not enough influence outside Texas to make it in the long run and bring ina contract similar to the bigger leagues.

No matter how you slice it, the league was too Texas-centric to work in modern CFB.

IMO there is no real world scenario that could have saved the SWC other than television just never being invented.

(01-15-2015 05:27 PM)Frog in the Kitchen Sink Wrote:  15% of all recruits come from Texas (for all FBS schools). Assuming that 15% would hold true when only looking at P5 school recruits (couldn't find those numbers), that percentage suggests that the state has the recruiting resources to support almost 10 P5 programs (.15 X 65).

With 5 P5 programs, there is room to grow, based on the recruiting resources available. It's pretty clear that in lieu of that, schools from smaller recruiting pool states in the Big 12 and adjacent conferences have benefited from Texas recruiting.

With 15% of the nations recruits (nearly 1/6 of the entire cohort), the talent pool is there to support a Texas-centric P5 conference.

The problem with the SWC was never the availability of talent.

The problem was that the lack of money and exposure for a league that could not draw interest outside Texas and Arkansas. That deficit in relation to the super-regional conferences at the end of the SWC saw the top talent in this state regularly leaving the state to play in conferences that had more money and better visibility.

The other side effect of 9 teams all eating at the same trough was that none of them ever got fat. The dilution of recruiting and the top talent leaving the state was also why at its end, the SWC rarely if ever had a national champion contender and lost a lot of bowl games.

(01-15-2015 07:37 PM)10thMountain Wrote:  IMO thats still not enough influence outside Texas to make it in the long run and bring ina contract similar to the bigger leagues.

No matter how you slice it, the league was too Texas-centric to work in modern CFB.

IMO there is no real world scenario that could have saved the SWC other than television just never being invented.

I disagree but can see your point. Maybe if you could convince Miami and/or Florida State to join that would entice things (though also make it a cross-continent conference well before its time if BYU was still joining).