Forget about rules because they can change and they kill the conversation in this case.

So I am going to list some schools who given the right opportunity I could see stepping up. ADD some if you wish or give reasons besides NCAA rules why they would not.Also no path currently exist meaning a conference invite is unlikely.

Youngstown ST twenty thousand seat stadium with plans for expansion .Tressel for a president and Pellini as a coach good combination. Four time FCS champ

Montana twenty five thousand seat stadium flagship school great support .

Montana ST nineteen thousand seats strong support package deal with Montana .
Makes an invitation to a current conference impossible but helps if there was a new one.

Sacramento ST twenty one thousand seat stadium MWC potential long term because of the size of the town. FBS is better for a program in a city could play Fresno and SDSU home and home.

Portland ST 19566 seat stadium same as Sacramento FCS draws poorly in cities.

Northern Iowa sixteen thousand seat dome might make the move to continue games vs in state FBS teams.

NDSU nineteen thousand seat stadium with plans for twenty five thousand seats .
Eventually the fan base will get tired of FCS especially if more programs leave.
The P5 G5 split has turned FCS into D2 as far as football.

Delaware twenty two thousand seat stadium and great support.

Schools with expansion plans some already in the fundraising stage.
South Dakota,South Dakota ST, Eastern Washington,Cal Poly and UC Davis.

Liberty ,EKU, Jackson ST ,JMU, and UT- Chattanooga all have possible options to join an existing conference.

I don't see twenty teams moving up even if the perfect situation arose.
I could see the four likely independent programs in the future with maybe eight new programs .

West division Idaho ,NMSU and four Big Sky teams

East division Army,U Mass and possibly Deleware football only
The other three or four being MVFC teams. UNI ,SDSU and NDSU for example
A couple of Dakota schools could be all sports they travel a lot anyway if eight all sports was still needed.

So in your opinion if rules were changed what schools would be better off moving up.

I think the fastest way for "D4" to happen is if the schools you listed enter FBS en mass. I don't believe there is are existing FBS to support all of these teams and if nothing else the G5 schools aren't going to want to share what they have with them. The P5 plus ND, BYU, Army, the AAC, MWC and a handful my of the bigger remaning programs could split of into a 90 to 100 team league with stipends and whatever else and enough people would be happy that no one would stop them.

(01-11-2015 03:48 PM)ARSTATEFAN1986 Wrote:  If and when the Big 12 expands, Bowlsby acknowledges that they would target schools to the east which eliminates BYU and Boise from the discussion. The top candidate on most everyone's list is Cincinnati which would help West virginia out. But who would the second target be? Central Florida, Memphis, East Carolina or Connecticut?

Except for rumors that Fox may want expansion by adding another time zone (the B12 already has the eastern timezone with WVU).

(01-14-2015 05:46 PM)UpStreamRedTeam Wrote:  I think the fastest way for "D4" to happen is if the schools you listed enter FBS en mass. I don't believe there is are existing FBS to support all of these teams and if nothing else the G5 schools aren't going to want to share what they have with them. The P5 plus ND, BYU, Army, the AAC, MWC and a handful my of the bigger remaning programs could split of into a 90 to 100 team league with stipends and whatever else and enough people would be happy that no one would stop them.

Agree with you on this point.

The P5 could care less how big FBS gets.
They have already split BCS wasn't clear enough POWER makes it clearer. Additional FBS teams helps them buy more home games.

G5 can benefit by having a tweener conference .
Just make any new conference ineligible for full playoff money until a couple years past the current contract.

Why would the POWER schools look down on NDSU vs UTSA or UL Monroe or Eastern Michigan ?
They don't benefit by losing FBS programs either.

As long as the P5 is not forced to share money with such a group, I don't think they'd care.

The problem is that in the past politics has forced the P5 to share money with EVERY D-1 program. This creates a huge incentive for schools to jump to the top level; anyone who jumps up a level gets free money from the P5 just for joining up! Just look at what happened in basketball.

(01-14-2015 06:55 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  As long as the P5 is not forced to share money with such a group, I don't think they'd care.

The problem is that in the past politics has forced the P5 to share money with EVERY D-1 program. This creates a huge incentive for schools to jump to the top level; anyone who jumps up a level gets free money from the P5 just for joining up! Just look at what happened in basketball.

I can see that it just wouldn't be a lot of money.
Twelve would be a stretch so eventually twelve million maybe. Tiny slice of the pie really just like the NCAA basketball money. Those one bid conferences help the tournament. Without the Cinderella teams it would lose a lot of interest. I could be wrong I just see a reaction to all the greed helping the little guy. Keeping them from becoming a threat but allowing teams to advance. Fairness the American way vs greed

Greed has won all the recent battles I know.

(01-14-2015 05:46 PM)UpStreamRedTeam Wrote:  I think the fastest way for "D4" to happen is if the schools you listed enter FBS en mass. I don't believe there is are existing FBS to support all of these teams and if nothing else the G5 schools aren't going to want to share what they have with them. The P5 plus ND, BYU, Army, the AAC, MWC and a handful my of the bigger remaning programs could split of into a 90 to 100 team league with stipends and whatever else and enough people would be happy that no one would stop them.

The G5 would be vehemently opposed, as they would lose their gatekeeper ability, but the P5 would not be opposed if the new FCS doesn't cut into their money. In fact, the PAC12 and B1G would favor a Big Sky FBS league, as western B1G and all PAC12 teams would benefit from more FBS teams to schedule cheaply. The best way to keep the G5 down is to water it down more.

To borrow from minor league baseball teminology:

East - American as AAA teams, UMass and Army independents
South - American as AAA, CUSA as AA, and Sun Belt as A
Midwest - MAC as an A level league
West - MWC as a AAA/AA league, BYU as a AAA independent

The MAC plays perfectly for Ohio St, Mich, and Mich St, but the western teams need an "A" league in its vicinity. The MWC would fight tooth and nail against a new "A" league in the West, but the PAC12 would be all over it for ease and comparatively cheap scheduling reasons.

(01-14-2015 09:17 PM)NoDak Wrote:  

(01-14-2015 05:46 PM)UpStreamRedTeam Wrote:  I think the fastest way for "D4" to happen is if the schools you listed enter FBS en mass. I don't believe there is are existing FBS to support all of these teams and if nothing else the G5 schools aren't going to want to share what they have with them. The P5 plus ND, BYU, Army, the AAC, MWC and a handful my of the bigger remaning programs could split of into a 90 to 100 team league with stipends and whatever else and enough people would be happy that no one would stop them.

The G5 would be vehemently opposed, as they would lose their gatekeeper ability, but the P5 would not be opposed if the new FCS doesn't cut into their money. In fact, the PAC12 and B1G would favor a Big Sky FBS league, as western B1G and all PAC12 teams would benefit from more FBS teams to schedule cheaply. The best way to keep the G5 down is to water it down more.

To borrow from minor league baseball teminology:

East - American as AAA teams, UMass and Army independents
South - American as AAA, CUSA as AA, and Sun Belt as A
Midwest - MAC as an A level league
West - MWC as a AAA/AA league, BYU as a AAA independent

The MAC plays perfectly for Ohio St, Mich, and Mich St, but the western teams need an "A" league in its vicinity. The MWC would fight tooth and nail against a new "A" league in the West, but the PAC12 would be all over it for ease and comparatively cheap scheduling reasons.

The G5 watered-down as time goes on it becomes less relevant. The teams might rise but the conferences won't.
The MWC of Utah,TCU and BYU may have caught the Big East
The financial gap is wider and there is no weak P5 conference.

The reason this would never happen is because the G5 would never allow it. They are at this level for a reason. I'm also not sure I would go along with the P5 being completely okay idea, there's no incentive for them to allow this to happen.

Remember, the P5 scratches the G5's back because they know that the G5 will likely agree to whatever rules they want to pass. The G5 is perfectly happy with almost no playoff access and one New Years 6 bowl spot. You can't guarantee that an additional 20 or so teams would go along with such an idea.

None of this matters anyway, this agreement is for 15 years...that means for the next 15 years no new league could split any revenue anyway. If there were FCS teams wanting to move up, they needed to push for that a few years ago. It sucks for Idaho and UMass that this has happened, but it's how FBS football works now.

(01-14-2015 05:01 PM)MJG Wrote:  Forget about rules because they can change and they kill the conversation in this case.

So I am going to list some schools who given the right opportunity I could see stepping up. ADD some if you wish or give reasons besides NCAA rules why they would not.Also no path currently exist meaning a conference invite is unlikely.

Youngstown ST twenty thousand seat stadium with plans for expansion .Tressel for a president and Pellini as a coach good combination. Four time FCS champ

Montana twenty five thousand seat stadium flagship school great support .

Montana ST nineteen thousand seats strong support package deal with Montana .
Makes an invitation to a current conference impossible but helps if there was a new one.


Sacramento ST twenty one thousand seat stadium MWC potential long term because of the size of the town. FBS is better for a program in a city could play Fresno and SDSU home and home.

Portland ST 19566 seat stadium same as Sacramento FCS draws poorly in cities.

Northern Iowa sixteen thousand seat dome might make the move to continue games vs in state FBS teams.

NDSU nineteen thousand seat stadium with plans for twenty five thousand seats .
Eventually the fan base will get tired of FCS especially if more programs leave.
The P5 G5 split has turned FCS into D2 as far as football.

Delaware twenty two thousand seat stadium and great support.

Schools with expansion plans some already in the fundraising stage.
South Dakota,South Dakota ST, Eastern Washington,Cal Poly and UC Davis.

Liberty ,EKU, Jackson ST ,JMU, and UT- Chattanooga all have possible options to join an existing conference.

I don't see twenty teams moving up even if the perfect situation arose.
I could see the four likely independent programs in the future with maybe eight new programs .

West division Idaho ,NMSU and four Big Sky teams

East division Army,U Mass and possibly Deleware football only
The other three or four being MVFC teams. UNI ,SDSU and NDSU for example
A couple of Dakota schools could be all sports they travel a lot anyway if eight all sports was still needed.

So in your opinion if rules were changed what schools would be better off moving up.

I believe you mean Jacksonville State University. Finished the year ranked 9, has a very nice 24000 seat stadium and is in the top 10 in attendance yearly.

Yes I did mean the gamecocks.

I seriously doubt twenty teams would jump even with playoff money. The reason they are to spread out . The Sun Belt will eventually take three from the Southeast.

Geography is just to much of a factor .
NDSU might be the best candidate including some that have already moved up. Without a path to move up senators from seven or more states might demand it. A school like Liberty with almost no chance for an invite eventually will sue.

Not naming schools

School A = averages over twenty five thousand and is a state flagship.

School B = averages six thousand a game and is a directional school.
Who should be FBS ?

I get the G5 does not want to share payoff money.

Do they have the power to stop a rules change ?

(01-15-2015 10:39 AM)MJG Wrote:  Yes I did mean the gamecocks.

I seriously doubt twenty teams would jump even with playoff money. The reason they are to spread out . The Sun Belt will eventually take three from the Southeast.

Geography is just to much of a factor .
NDSU might be the best candidate including some that have already moved up. Without a path to move up senators from seven or more states might demand it. A school like Liberty with almost no chance for an invite eventually will sue.

Not naming schools

School A = averages over twenty five thousand and is a state flagship.

School B = averages six thousand a game and is a directional school.
Who should be FBS ?

I guess that depends. Would they still get 25,000 if their main goal was to win in a G5 conference, most likely MAC or Sun Belt, and at best they can get an access bowl, vs. playing for a national championship in FCS?

(01-15-2015 11:35 AM)NIU007 Wrote:  

(01-15-2015 10:39 AM)MJG Wrote:  Yes I did mean the gamecocks.

I seriously doubt twenty teams would jump even with playoff money. The reason they are to spread out . The Sun Belt will eventually take three from the Southeast.

Geography is just to much of a factor .
NDSU might be the best candidate including some that have already moved up. Without a path to move up senators from seven or more states might demand it. A school like Liberty with almost no chance for an invite eventually will sue.

Not naming schools

School A = averages over twenty five thousand and is a state flagship.

School B = averages six thousand a game and is a directional school.
Who should be FBS ?

I guess that depends. Would they still get 25,000 if their main goal was to win in a G5 conference, most likely MAC or Sun Belt, and at best they can get an access bowl, vs. playing for a national championship in FCS?

Speaking as a fan of a team that mirrors "School A" - Yes & Yes

The biggest difficulty in fcs attendance is the number of fans an opposing team brings. Typically near zero. I would assume in an fbs conference especially a regional one opposing teams would bring a few fans with them.

(01-14-2015 06:55 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  As long as the P5 is not forced to share money with such a group, I don't think they'd care.

The problem is that in the past politics has forced the P5 to share money with EVERY D-1 program. This creates a huge incentive for schools to jump to the top level; anyone who jumps up a level gets free money from the P5 just for joining up! Just look at what happened in basketball.

Adding more schools would be bad for the G5. They would dilute revenue and talent.

(01-15-2015 11:37 AM)Georgia_Power_Company Wrote:  

(01-15-2015 11:35 AM)NIU007 Wrote:  

(01-15-2015 10:39 AM)MJG Wrote:  Yes I did mean the gamecocks.

I seriously doubt twenty teams would jump even with playoff money. The reason they are to spread out . The Sun Belt will eventually take three from the Southeast.

Geography is just to much of a factor .
NDSU might be the best candidate including some that have already moved up. Without a path to move up senators from seven or more states might demand it. A school like Liberty with almost no chance for an invite eventually will sue.

Not naming schools

School A = averages over twenty five thousand and is a state flagship.

School B = averages six thousand a game and is a directional school.
Who should be FBS ?

I guess that depends. Would they still get 25,000 if their main goal was to win in a G5 conference, most likely MAC or Sun Belt, and at best they can get an access bowl, vs. playing for a national championship in FCS?

Speaking as a fan of a team that mirrors "School A" - Yes & Yes

I wonder NDSU fans think the same way. They seem pretty happy winning a real playoff in FCS.

Anyway, some of those teams that get low attendance in football do pretty well in other sports.

(01-15-2015 10:41 AM)MJG Wrote:  I get the G5 does not want to share payoff money.

Do they have the power to stop a rules change ?

Why would the P5 want to change it?
FBS doesn't have a vote.
G5 wouldn't want to change it.

(01-15-2015 11:35 AM)NIU007 Wrote:  

(01-15-2015 10:39 AM)MJG Wrote:  Yes I did mean the gamecocks.

I seriously doubt twenty teams would jump even with playoff money. The reason they are to spread out . The Sun Belt will eventually take three from the Southeast.

Geography is just to much of a factor .
NDSU might be the best candidate including some that have already moved up. Without a path to move up senators from seven or more states might demand it. A school like Liberty with almost no chance for an invite eventually will sue.

Not naming schools

School A = averages over twenty five thousand and is a state flagship.

School B = averages six thousand a game and is a directional school.
Who should be FBS ?

I guess that depends. Would they still get 25,000 if their main goal was to win in a G5 conference, most likely MAC or Sun Belt, and at best they can get an access bowl, vs. playing for a national championship in FCS?

Appalachian St. and Georgia Southern will be interesting tests of that. Most of the recent additions to FBS haven't been that good at FCS. Think about the schools since the mass movement in the mid-90s:
Buffalo
Middle Tennessee
South Florida
Connecticut
Troy State
Florida Atlantic
Florida International
Western Kentucky
Massachusetts
South Alabama
Texas State
Texas-San Antonio
Georgia State
Old Dominion
Georgia Southern
Appalachian State
Charlotte

9 startup programs, 2 who rarely did much (TX St., UConn), 3 up and down schools (WKU,MTSU,UMass), Troy who was solid but didn't have much history at Division I and Georgia Southern and Appalachian.

Even prior to that you didn't have the very top programs-you had 4 former Southland schools (ULM,LT,ASU,UNT), 3 former Big Sky schools (ID,Boise,NV) and UCF. Only Marshall was a true FCS power.

(01-14-2015 05:01 PM)MJG Wrote:  Forget about rules because they can change and they kill the conversation in this case.

So I am going to list some schools who given the right opportunity I could see stepping up. ADD some if you wish or give reasons besides NCAA rules why they would not.Also no path currently exist meaning a conference invite is unlikely.

Youngstown ST twenty thousand seat stadium with plans for expansion .Tressel for a president and Pellini as a coach good combination. Four time FCS champ

Too many schools in Ohio

Montana twenty five thousand seat stadium flagship school great support .

Montana ST nineteen thousand seats strong support package deal with Montana .
Makes an invitation to a current conference impossible but helps if there was a new one.

Sacramento ST twenty one thousand seat stadium MWC potential long term because of the size of the town. FBS is better for a program in a city could play Fresno and SDSU home and home.

Portland ST 19566 seat stadium same as Sacramento FCS draws poorly in cities.

So does FBS. Portland St. is a small commuter school and Sac St. is a large commuter school in a state that isn't fanatic about showing up as fans.[b][i]

Northern Iowa sixteen thousand seat dome might make the move to continue games vs in state FBS teams.

Small school small state[/b][/i]

NDSU nineteen thousand seat stadium with plans for twenty five thousand seats .
Eventually the fan base will get tired of FCS especially if more programs leave.
The P5 G5 split has turned FCS into D2 as far as football.

Delaware twenty two thousand seat stadium and great support.

Schools with expansion plans some already in the fundraising stage.
South Dakota,South Dakota ST, Eastern Washington,Cal Poly and UC Davis.

Small population state with large area hampers most of these.
Delaware really doesn't want to go up.


Liberty ,EKU, Jackson ST ,JMU, and UT- Chattanooga all have possible options to join an existing conference.

I don't see twenty teams moving up even if the perfect situation arose.
I could see the four likely independent programs in the future with maybe eight new programs .

West division Idaho ,NMSU and four Big Sky teams

East division Army,U Mass and possibly Deleware football only
The other three or four being MVFC teams. UNI ,SDSU and NDSU for example
A couple of Dakota schools could be all sports they travel a lot anyway if eight all sports was still needed.

So in your opinion if rules were changed what schools would be better off moving up.

Delaware, James Madison, Missouri St, Illinois St. would be better off moving up. Cal Poly and Cal Davis would be better off if they could build up fan support. The rest are better off where they are.