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8 Team Playoff - more thoughts
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Kittonhead Offline
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Post: #21
Re: RE: 8 Team Playoff - more thoughts
(01-14-2015 09:03 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  The bigger question is whether that #8 seed would go to an at-large team like Michigan State or if there would be a spot reserved for the top G5 conference champ (who would have been Boise State this year).

I always thought the G5 champ receiving an autobid to a CFP bowl was in response to the P5 schools getting to host one on market value. The entire G5 was worth an at-large slot in the system. The playoff conversation however was about taking the pure Top 4 teams.

By going to the pure Top 8 it makes room for the TCU, ND, BYU or Boise State type program who might be at a slight disadvantage do to the scheduling situation. Then move to 8 CFP bowls to take the Top 16, further opening space for those programs.

The nonstandard.program it helps and the hot SEC, B1G, PAC or ACC program that stumbled early.
01-14-2015 01:49 PM
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Frank the Tank Online
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Post: #22
RE: 8 Team Playoff - more thoughts
(01-14-2015 01:49 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  
(01-14-2015 09:03 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  The bigger question is whether that #8 seed would go to an at-large team like Michigan State or if there would be a spot reserved for the top G5 conference champ (who would have been Boise State this year).

I always thought the G5 champ receiving an autobid to a CFP bowl was in response to the P5 schools getting to host one on market value. The entire G5 was worth an at-large slot in the system. The playoff conversation however was about taking the pure Top 4 teams.

By going to the pure Top 8 it makes room for the TCU, ND, BYU or Boise State type program who might be at a slight disadvantage do to the scheduling situation. Then move to 8 CFP bowls to take the Top 16, further opening space for those programs.

The nonstandard.program it helps and the hot SEC, B1G, PAC or ACC program that stumbled early.

I gotcha, but I'm not assuming a "pure top 8". Instead, I'm assuming that the 5 power conference champs get auto-bids in that field. As a result, a potential trade-off for those auto-bids is to ensure that the top G5 champ also gets a bid. To me, a move to an 8-team playoff is inherently tied to an auto-bid for each power conference - you can already see the consternation with the Big 12 this year being left. Imagine what would happen if the Big Ten gets left out or, heaven forbid, the SEC. No one wants to be left standing in this game of musical chairs, so they want a *guaranteed* spot at the table. (Being 90% sure that your champ would be in the top 8 anyway, which what I've seen a lot of "pure top 8" advocates state, isn't good enough. This is about instantly turning your conference championship game into a guaranteed annual de facto playoff game that you control 100% of the revenue over and sell to TV networks at an even more massive premium compared to now.)
01-14-2015 02:06 PM
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Post: #23
8 Team Playoff - more thoughts
A pure Top 8 would be more equitable, but I think the temptation to BCS-ify the playoff will be too much to overcome; the thought of a guaranteed spot plus the possibility of more will simply be too much for a conference to say no too. Auto bids eliminate the prospect of a really strong conference having 5 bids, but it also eliminates the possibility of having 0 bids.


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01-14-2015 06:57 PM
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RUScarlets Online
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Post: #24
RE: 8 Team Playoff - more thoughts
Once again, the CCG and the 8 team model is trying to fit the square peg in the round hole. It's never going to change until they get rid of the CCG or completely undermine Army Navy. You cannot host an essential play-in game for P5 teams in the CCG and then have an 8 team playoff ensuing that. Too many games, too many weeks, too many meaningless November games. And the Big 12 would be outnumbered 4-1 in proposing such a change.
01-14-2015 08:29 PM
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jgkojak Offline
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Post: #25
RE: 8 Team Playoff - more thoughts
There is another way to do it --

make it so all conferences have to be balanced in play - like the Big 12.

The G 5(4) would be 4 16 to 20 team conferences, made up of two divisions of 8,9 or 10 teams.

The SEC, for instance, could expand to 18 (OU, OSU, TCU and WVU... for ***** and giggles- let's not argue about which teams they'd really take)

The SEC West: OU, OSU, AR, A&M, TCU, LSU, MO, AL, AU
The SEC East: TN, VAN, KY, WVU, SC, GA, MS, MS ST, FL

They play each other (8 games) leaving 4 for non-con, and play a champ game against each other.
01-14-2015 10:20 PM
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jgkojak Offline
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Post: #26
RE: 8 Team Playoff - more thoughts
I think CHAMPIONS win the big games.

It has nothing to do with getting hot. Teams aren't just 4 and 5 star recruits and who is a good coach.

Champions have heart and drive and will to win -

see: Kentucky almost losing in OT twice in a row in basketball. Someone is gonna sneak up on 'em in the Final Four and take 'em out.
01-14-2015 10:22 PM
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perimeterpost Offline
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Post: #27
RE: 8 Team Playoff - more thoughts
(01-14-2015 10:20 PM)jgkojak Wrote:  There is another way to do it --

make it so all conferences have to be balanced in play - like the Big 12.

The G 5(4) would be 4 16 to 20 team conferences, made up of two divisions of 8,9 or 10 teams.

The SEC, for instance, could expand to 18 (OU, OSU, TCU and WVU... for ***** and giggles- let's not argue about which teams they'd really take)

The SEC West: OU, OSU, AR, A&M, TCU, LSU, MO, AL, AU
The SEC East: TN, VAN, KY, WVU, SC, GA, MS, MS ST, FL

They play each other (8 games) leaving 4 for non-con, and play a champ game against each other.

no need to get that complicated-

-10 conferences = 10 conference champs.
-rank conference champs 1-10 based on OOC performance (make it so teams that choose to buyout cupcake home games kill their ranking)
- bottom 4 conference champs play a play-in game (7v10, 8v9), two winners join top 6 conference champs for 8 team playoff.

done, all decided on the field by the student athletes as it should be.
01-14-2015 11:00 PM
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Post: #28
RE: 8 Team Playoff - more thoughts
I don't want a 8 team playoff. I would prefer a 16 team playoff. Make the Cotton,Feista,Orange,and Peach bowl all three game tournaments. The winners move on into either the Sugar or Rose bowl semi-final and then those winners play for the championship.
01-14-2015 11:19 PM
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Post: #29
RE: 8 Team Playoff - more thoughts
(01-14-2015 09:07 AM)MWC Tex Wrote:  1. Sometimes the best team need a few games to gel together as a team.

That's the best argument for P5 autobids in an 8-team playoff. It assures that a team who loses very early has a chance to rebound, get on a roll, and get into the field. That might not happen in a no-autobid format.

The reason that format will either happen or not is pure politics, of course, but aside from politics, the idea of a team not being eliminate too early has some appeal.
01-15-2015 12:11 AM
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Post: #30
RE: 8 Team Playoff - more thoughts
Having been involved with many 1-AA / FCS playoffs I know it will work at the P5 level. A couple of tweaks necessary.

Cut regular season back to 11 games as it was prior to 2006.

First round played the first week in December and essentially consists of conf championship games to determine the field of 8.
Second round played second week in December. The games played on the home field of the higher seeded teams.
Semi final games on new Years Day. 1-8 winner vs 4-5 winner & 2-7 winner vs 3-6 winner at a bowl site like this year.
Championship game played as they were this year.
01-15-2015 10:28 AM
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Frank the Tank Online
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Post: #31
RE: 8 Team Playoff - more thoughts
(01-15-2015 10:28 AM)AppManDG Wrote:  Having been involved with many 1-AA / FCS playoffs I know it will work at the P5 level. A couple of tweaks necessary.

Cut regular season back to 11 games as it was prior to 2006.

First round played the first week in December and essentially consists of conf championship games to determine the field of 8.
Second round played second week in December. The games played on the home field of the higher seeded teams.
Semi final games on new Years Day. 1-8 winner vs 4-5 winner & 2-7 winner vs 3-6 winner at a bowl site like this year.
Championship game played as they were this year.

The idea that I've seen kicked around in a few places (including Georgia Tech Swagger on a different thread) and I've thrown out on my blog before is to look at the progression of the physical locations in the opposite direction. If you want to incorporate teams' home fields in an 8-team playoff, do it in the *semifinal* round as opposed to the quarterfinal round. The quarterfinals in an 8-team playoff ought to be in the bowls (giving all teams that experience and preserving those games), while the semifinals that are going to be harder to travel to can be at the home sites of the higher seeded teams.

Call me crazy, but doesn't it seem to be a bit of an injustice that playoff participants that had monster seasons get a "reward" of going to Tuscaloosa or Columbus in the middle of December when no one can travel while the lesser teams in their leagues get guaranteed spots to travel to places like Pasadena and Miami for the holidays? The New Year's Day bowls aren't the games that are difficult to travel to, so you want to maximize those slots for schools. Instead, it's the games that come afterwards that are tougher. So, make the *semifinal* round into the home team venue. That provides some extra juice to being ranked #1 or #2, as well, in an 8-team format, as you can guarantee yourself a semifinal home game if you win your bowl game.

As I've said, the less you change, the more likely it will get implemented. Schedules also NEVER contract - they always expand. Reducing regular season games is a non-starter - Big Ten and SEC schools make several million dollars in revenue for every extra home game. They're not ever giving up that extra game (just as you'll never see MLB, NBA and NHL reduce their regular season schedules). Whatever system we end up with will keep the 12-game schedule and conference championship games. We're only going to ADD to what's in place - nothing is getting subtracted.
01-15-2015 11:03 AM
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Post: #32
RE: 8 Team Playoff - more thoughts
(01-14-2015 10:22 PM)jgkojak Wrote:  I think CHAMPIONS win the big games.

It has nothing to do with getting hot. Teams aren't just 4 and 5 star recruits and who is a good coach.

Champions have heart and drive and will to win -

see: Kentucky almost losing in OT twice in a row in basketball. Someone is gonna sneak up on 'em in the Final Four and take 'em out.

They DID win those games. And then followed it up by beating Missouri by 86-37, similar to their wins over UCLA and Kansas.
01-15-2015 11:41 AM
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Post: #33
RE: 8 Team Playoff - more thoughts
(01-15-2015 11:03 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(01-15-2015 10:28 AM)AppManDG Wrote:  Having been involved with many 1-AA / FCS playoffs I know it will work at the P5 level. A couple of tweaks necessary.

Cut regular season back to 11 games as it was prior to 2006.

First round played the first week in December and essentially consists of conf championship games to determine the field of 8.
Second round played second week in December. The games played on the home field of the higher seeded teams.
Semi final games on new Years Day. 1-8 winner vs 4-5 winner & 2-7 winner vs 3-6 winner at a bowl site like this year.
Championship game played as they were this year.

The idea that I've seen kicked around in a few places (including Georgia Tech Swagger on a different thread) and I've thrown out on my blog before is to look at the progression of the physical locations in the opposite direction. If you want to incorporate teams' home fields in an 8-team playoff, do it in the *semifinal* round as opposed to the quarterfinal round. The quarterfinals in an 8-team playoff ought to be in the bowls (giving all teams that experience and preserving those games), while the semifinals that are going to be harder to travel to can be at the home sites of the higher seeded teams.

Call me crazy, but doesn't it seem to be a bit of an injustice that playoff participants that had monster seasons get a "reward" of going to Tuscaloosa or Columbus in the middle of December when no one can travel while the lesser teams in their leagues get guaranteed spots to travel to places like Pasadena and Miami for the holidays? The New Year's Day bowls aren't the games that are difficult to travel to, so you want to maximize those slots for schools. Instead, it's the games that come afterwards that are tougher. So, make the *semifinal* round into the home team venue. That provides some extra juice to being ranked #1 or #2, as well, in an 8-team format, as you can guarantee yourself a semifinal home game if you win your bowl game.

As I've said, the less you change, the more likely it will get implemented. Schedules also NEVER contract - they always expand. Reducing regular season games is a non-starter - Big Ten and SEC schools make several million dollars in revenue for every extra home game. They're not ever giving up that extra game (just as you'll never see MLB, NBA and NHL reduce their regular season schedules). Whatever system we end up with will keep the 12-game schedule and conference championship games. We're only going to ADD to what's in place - nothing is getting subtracted.

I don't think you can get the stadiums ready on short notice in January. You could also have unacceptable weather for amateurs. That idea makes a lot of sense, but just wouldn't work logistically.
Hotel availability would also be an issue.
01-15-2015 11:45 AM
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ken d Online
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Post: #34
RE: 8 Team Playoff - more thoughts
(01-15-2015 11:03 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(01-15-2015 10:28 AM)AppManDG Wrote:  Having been involved with many 1-AA / FCS playoffs I know it will work at the P5 level. A couple of tweaks necessary.

Cut regular season back to 11 games as it was prior to 2006.

First round played the first week in December and essentially consists of conf championship games to determine the field of 8.
Second round played second week in December. The games played on the home field of the higher seeded teams.
Semi final games on new Years Day. 1-8 winner vs 4-5 winner & 2-7 winner vs 3-6 winner at a bowl site like this year.
Championship game played as they were this year.

The idea that I've seen kicked around in a few places (including Georgia Tech Swagger on a different thread) and I've thrown out on my blog before is to look at the progression of the physical locations in the opposite direction. If you want to incorporate teams' home fields in an 8-team playoff, do it in the *semifinal* round as opposed to the quarterfinal round. The quarterfinals in an 8-team playoff ought to be in the bowls (giving all teams that experience and preserving those games), while the semifinals that are going to be harder to travel to can be at the home sites of the higher seeded teams.

Call me crazy, but doesn't it seem to be a bit of an injustice that playoff participants that had monster seasons get a "reward" of going to Tuscaloosa or Columbus in the middle of December when no one can travel while the lesser teams in their leagues get guaranteed spots to travel to places like Pasadena and Miami for the holidays? The New Year's Day bowls aren't the games that are difficult to travel to, so you want to maximize those slots for schools. Instead, it's the games that come afterwards that are tougher. So, make the *semifinal* round into the home team venue. That provides some extra juice to being ranked #1 or #2, as well, in an 8-team format, as you can guarantee yourself a semifinal home game if you win your bowl game.

As I've said, the less you change, the more likely it will get implemented. Schedules also NEVER contract - they always expand. Reducing regular season games is a non-starter - Big Ten and SEC schools make several million dollars in revenue for every extra home game. They're not ever giving up that extra game (just as you'll never see MLB, NBA and NHL reduce their regular season schedules). Whatever system we end up with will keep the 12-game schedule and conference championship games. We're only going to ADD to what's in place - nothing is getting subtracted.

You are right. Going to Tuscaloosa makes no sense for a quarterfinal. To be honest, I personally don't think going to Atlanta or Dallas is all that great a prize either. In the Plus Three model you outlined elsewhere, which I am coming to like more and more by the day, those two sites make more sense to me as venues for the semis and finals.

I would prefer swapping Atlanta for a site like Orlando for one of the six access bowls. Then you would need to find a site for the other semi (Jerry World seems like the most obvious choice for what amounts to the collegiate Super Bowl). That site would need to be a large city west of the Mississippi with a pro type stadium (including luxury suites), and hopefully not somewhere where extreme weather is likely to be a frequent problem.

I just have a real problem at that stage of the playoff giving one team a home field advantage based solely on how they rank in a beauty contest. I realize that adds to the travel burden for fans of the teams that are involved. But these games are essentially "made for TV" games as it is, and attendance at them is not done in conjunction with a winter vacation.

This is what I would propose as a way to help with the travel problem.

First, I would give each of the four participating teams 2,000 seats, free of charge, between the 20 yard lines right behind their team's bench. These tickets would be allocated as follows:

400 tickets for the families and friends of the players and coaches.
200 tickets to faculty and spouses.
1250 for students, including the band.
150 for admin personnel and guests at each school's discretion.

All 2,000 would be given, at no cost to them, transportation to the game, hotel stay based on double occupancy, and $50 per person for meals and incidentals. Except for the families and friends, travel would likely be by charter planes and buses to enable everyone to get to a Saturday game with only one night at a hotel. Funding for this, and the travel expenses of the participating teams, would come out of the revenues the CFP gets from the networks.

Next I would give each school 8,000 tickets, at a cost to them of $150 each, located right behind the 2,000 free seats they already have. They may sell as many of these as they can to their fans, and are free to sell any that remain on the secondary market. Potentially, the CFP could reserve blocks of hotel rooms for some or all of these seats.

The remaining seats in the stadium would be presold by the CFP, and likely bought by corporations and local sports fans (thus the reason to put the games in large cities).

It's not perfect. But last year we had one post season game that was truly meaningful. This year we had three. In this model, we would have nine, with six of them being in prime vacation spots and times. And a lot more of the financial windfall would go to athletes, students and faculty than ever before. As I said, I'm coming to like this more and more.
01-15-2015 12:06 PM
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Frank the Tank Online
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Post: #35
RE: 8 Team Playoff - more thoughts
(01-15-2015 11:45 AM)bullet Wrote:  I don't think you can get the stadiums ready on short notice in January. You could also have unacceptable weather for amateurs. That idea makes a lot of sense, but just wouldn't work logistically.
Hotel availability would also be an issue.

Oh, I agree that it would be unlikely for those reasons. Note that part of the reason why the use of home stadiums for the 4-team playoff was nixed because of weather in December, and that would be compounded in January. (Note that most of the Northern schools aren't set up for winter weather. Unless they're playing in a multipurpose pro stadium, they're built with the assumption that the season ends in November, which means that they don't have heating or other types of infrastructure to play games in the truly cold weather in December and January.

I was just throwing it out there since it's a common proposal that an 8-team playoff should use home sites for the quarterfinals. When you take a step back, it's just hard for me to see why, say, the Big Ten champ plays a cold weather home game and the 2nd place Big Ten team would get sent to Tuscaloosa in an 8-team playoff in the middle of December, while the 3rd place Big Ten team gets to go to the Rose Bowl (which is what would have happened this year). I still firmly believe that the bowls would be incorporated into any 8-team playoff and that the season would get pushed further out (as opposed to playing playoff games in December).
01-15-2015 01:22 PM
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Post: #36
RE: 8 Team Playoff - more thoughts
(01-15-2015 01:22 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(01-15-2015 11:45 AM)bullet Wrote:  I don't think you can get the stadiums ready on short notice in January. You could also have unacceptable weather for amateurs. That idea makes a lot of sense, but just wouldn't work logistically.
Hotel availability would also be an issue.

Oh, I agree that it would be unlikely for those reasons. Note that part of the reason why the use of home stadiums for the 4-team playoff was nixed because of weather in December, and that would be compounded in January. (Note that most of the Northern schools aren't set up for winter weather. Unless they're playing in a multipurpose pro stadium, they're built with the assumption that the season ends in November, which means that they don't have heating or other types of infrastructure to play games in the truly cold weather in December and January.

I was just throwing it out there since it's a common proposal that an 8-team playoff should use home sites for the quarterfinals. When you take a step back, it's just hard for me to see why, say, the Big Ten champ plays a cold weather home game and the 2nd place Big Ten team would get sent to Tuscaloosa in an 8-team playoff in the middle of December, while the 3rd place Big Ten team gets to go to the Rose Bowl (which is what would have happened this year). I still firmly believe that the bowls would be incorporated into any 8-team playoff and that the season would get pushed further out (as opposed to playing playoff games in December).

I agree. You made a very cogent argument elsewhere that the fewer things that have to change, the more it becomes possible to change. If you are going to get university presidents to hold their nose to allow another game, it's more likely they would prefer that game be early in the spring semester than just before (or during) exams for the fall semester. And if you can put those plus three games on a Saturday, which minimizes the loss of class time (and only for four schools anyway), so much the better.
01-15-2015 01:40 PM
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Post: #37
RE: 8 Team Playoff - more thoughts
The logistics of moving a team and fan base to bowl games with only two weeks notice would be tough.
01-15-2015 02:36 PM
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Post: #38
RE: 8 Team Playoff - more thoughts
(01-14-2015 11:00 PM)perimeterpost Wrote:  
(01-14-2015 10:20 PM)jgkojak Wrote:  There is another way to do it --

make it so all conferences have to be balanced in play - like the Big 12.

The G 5(4) would be 4 16 to 20 team conferences, made up of two divisions of 8,9 or 10 teams.

The SEC, for instance, could expand to 18 (OU, OSU, TCU and WVU... for ***** and giggles- let's not argue about which teams they'd really take)

The SEC West: OU, OSU, AR, A&M, TCU, LSU, MO, AL, AU
The SEC East: TN, VAN, KY, WVU, SC, GA, MS, MS ST, FL

They play each other (8 games) leaving 4 for non-con, and play a champ game against each other.

no need to get that complicated-

-10 conferences = 10 conference champs.
-rank conference champs 1-10 based on OOC performance (make it so teams that choose to buyout cupcake home games kill their ranking)
- bottom 4 conference champs play a play-in game (7v10, 8v9), two winners join top 6 conference champs for 8 team playoff.

To be perfectly honest with you, this is a great idea....

-All conference champs are included
-Champs ranked #1 and #2 get an easy first round game against a champ from a bottom 4 conference.
-It gives the ability of a Boise State type champ to finish #4 or #5 and earn a bye from the first round.

There is no room for independents though, which may be an issue.
01-15-2015 10:14 PM
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allthatyoucantleavebehind Offline
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Post: #39
RE: 8 Team Playoff - more thoughts
I reiterate Frank's opinion. No one is CONTRACTING...only expanding. The CCGs aren't going away. The conferences control that money in it's entirety. Plus, quarterfinal games would NOT get the same ratings that the semifinals. (The NFL playoffs increase in ratings as it gets closer to the Super Bowl, obviously.) Plus, the quarterfinals--assuming you play the game in mid-December and not in the bowls like Frank suggested--would NOT be on a holiday weekend as the New Year's Six were. That contributed to the high ratings.

Another thing to consider: this was the first year of the new system. There were high stakes on CCG weekend, which all of us knew about as CFB enthusiasts. But the more casual fan didn't know just how important they'd be; the story lines were important (OSU's blowout catapulted them up...FSU held on to beat GaTech and secure their spot...and basically the fact that all the top 6 won created a logjam). I think the "excitement" and importance of CCG weekend is only going to increase (which of course means more money that each conference controls individually). I think that an auto-bid on the line on CCG weekend only hurts the importance of those games. I'd say, "Oh, the Georgia Tech/FSU winner makes the round of 8? Who cares about watching that game?" With the current system, I watched most of the game to root against FSU and make a spot for Baylor or OSU to move up.

Anything you want to propose needs to include the CCGs in the first Saturday of December.
01-16-2015 02:22 AM
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Post: #40
RE: 8 Team Playoff - more thoughts
I've had this proposal in hand for a few years now. If only someone would ask me... :)

Top 2 teams get byes.
#6 at #3 on campus the week AFTER CCGs.
#5 at #4 on campus the week AFTER CCGs.
Move Heisman ceremony back one week.

Losers of round of 6 play against each other in same bowl (so that all the other bowl plans can be set a week earlier).Then, keep the current system with the New Year's Six bowls. #1 seed plays 4/5 seed in proper bowl site. #2 seed plays 3/6 seed in proper bowl site.
01-16-2015 02:28 AM
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