The realignment thread talk of mega sized university endowments has me thinking about lots of things that I thought were way to OT to post in that thread:

I would love to know what all these schools do presently or plan to do in the future with these mega sized endowments.

It is beyond irritating to hear schools brag about endowment sizes while the cost of tuition and fees skyrockets.

I am wondering if the day comes soon when a lot of colleges break from the ranks and/or more new start-up colleges emerge. There is a huge market to be served by pitching premium tier education and experience without graduating with huge debt.

IMO we are witnessing a massive bubble - in some cases the cost of a college education plus debt service may no longer be worth the time and money invested. I am beginning to wonder whether the endowment and sports fundraising era is soon coming to a close.

Thoughts?

I work in Higher Ed and could go off on this topic for pages. The cost of higher education has far outstripped the cost of living over the last 20 years. That said, having a college degree is a bigger indicator of future financial success now than it has ever been. There's still huge demand for higher education. However, at some point, the massive debt that many of the current generation over college graduates has (I'm talking people from their early 30s and younger) will be unsustainable.

Ten years ago, there was a pretty strong belief that for-profit colleges and online learning would rule the future. For-profit colleges have taken a blow that they'll never recover from, and the jury is still out on the online offerings.

I believe we'll see more students opt to go the community college route first, and save huge chunks of money in the process. This will obviously be in the forefront of thought over the coming months after President Obama's announcement last week. Most of the students who go the community college route will then go on to state institutions. I believe that we'll see more schools like NKU, Wright State, IUPUI, Cleveland State, etc continue to become stronger in the future. In the end, though, you're absolutely correct - something has to give.

(01-13-2015 11:54 AM)Eastside_J Wrote:  The realignment thread talk of mega sized university endowments has me thinking about lots of things that I thought were way to OT to post in that thread:

I would love to know what all these schools do presently or plan to do in the future with these mega sized endowments.

It is beyond irritating to hear schools brag about endowment sizes while the cost of tuition and fees skyrockets.

I am wondering if the day comes soon when a lot of colleges break from the ranks and/or more new start-up colleges emerge. There is a huge market to be served by pitching premium tier education and experience without graduating with huge debt.

IMO we are witnessing a massive bubble - in some cases the cost of a college education plus debt service may no longer be worth the time and money invested. I am beginning to wonder whether the endowment and sports fundraising era is soon coming to a close.

Thoughts?

Endowment size, to me, indicates the success and interest of alumni.

I don't think that more money improves athletics. You can only spend so much on facilities and salaries. The shiny facilities draw recruits, but it's what you do with them after you have them that matters.

With endowments, I believe you get better/smarter/gifted students through upgraded & new facilities, modern labs and better paid faculty - which can come back to the university through award-winning/famous/successful alumni.

UC has that and the endowment shows it.

(01-13-2015 12:43 PM)mac6115cd Wrote:  Endowment size, to me, indicates the success and interest of alumni.

I don't think that more money improves athletics. You can only spend so much on facilities and salaries. The shiny facilities draw recruits, but it's what you do with them after you have them that matters.

With endowments, I believe you get better/smarter/gifted students through upgraded & new facilities, modern labs and better paid faculty - which can come back to the university through award-winning/famous/successful alumni.

UC has that and the endowment shows it.

Xavier on the other hand is not particularly well endowed

But back to the topic: How does the endowment work to do that? Is UC using money/interest dollars from the endowment presently? I know I may sound stupid on the subject, but its only because I honestly am.

(01-13-2015 11:54 AM)Eastside_J Wrote:  The realignment thread talk of mega sized university endowments has me thinking about lots of things that I thought were way to OT to post in that thread:

I would love to know what all these schools do presently or plan to do in the future with these mega sized endowments.

It is beyond irritating to hear schools brag about endowment sizes while the cost of tuition and fees skyrockets.

I am wondering if the day comes soon when a lot of colleges break from the ranks and/or more new start-up colleges emerge. There is a huge market to be served by pitching premium tier education and experience without graduating with huge debt.

IMO we are witnessing a massive bubble - in some cases the cost of a college education plus debt service may no longer be worth the time and money invested. I am beginning to wonder whether the endowment and sports fundraising era is soon coming to a close.

Thoughts?

Universities generally use the earnings from their endowments to cover a significant portion of their operating costs. This is a sustainable funding source instead of requiring donations or counting on greater portions of government funding (for public universities). Some universities with 10s of billions in their endowment (like Harvard and Yale I believe) have started covering 100% of students' tuition for those that demonstrate financial need.

That being said, I don't totally disagree with you about the cost of education getting out of control. In the race for each school to have the newest/biggest/best whatever, the students are the ones left paying for it all.

$$ is the reason for the season.

This gives a nice explanation:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_endowment

(01-13-2015 12:37 PM)geef Wrote:  I believe we'll see more students opt to go the community college route first, and save huge chunks of money in the process. This will obviously be in the forefront of thought over the coming months after President Obama's announcement last week. Most of the students who go the community college route will then go on to state institutions.

Actually, if history is a guide, less than a third of students who attend a community college will get their associates degree within three years, much less go on to complete a degree program at a four year state institution.

Community college is tough. I would have had a tough time being motivated going to community college every day while living with my parents and having little to nothing drawing me there but classes.

(01-13-2015 05:16 PM)Bruce Monnin Wrote:  

(01-13-2015 12:37 PM)geef Wrote:  I believe we'll see more students opt to go the community college route first, and save huge chunks of money in the process. This will obviously be in the forefront of thought over the coming months after President Obama's announcement last week. Most of the students who go the community college route will then go on to state institutions.

Actually, if history is a guide, less than a third of students who attend a community college will get their associates degree within three years, much less go on to complete a degree program at a four year state institution.

Community college is tough. I would have had a tough time being motivated going to community college every day while living with my parents and having little to nothing drawing me there but classes.

Very true, but the more expensive 4-year institutions become, the more viable community colleges become to higher performing students who can no longer afford the debt burdens from attending a 4-year school.

It is when we decide it is too expensive. College debt is a huge burden on the economy. I would love to see a debt jubilee and the money to pay for it come from college endowments. A major cause of the increase is the increase in admin costs, not actual academic costs. Huge amounts of useless expenditures.

Think about what UC has spent on buildings and infrastructure over the last 20 years. It's staggering.

Of course, had they not spent that money, the tuition would still be jacked up. It's a cartel and they are in an arms race to corner as many of those billions and billions ( Carl Sagan voice) of dollars that are out there as is possible.

It will never happen, but I would like to see it start with employers who currently require a college degree for positions within their company just because it has become SOP. There are certainly many jobs that require specialized education, but there are many that don't. I've built a nice career in IT, for example.

My degree is in Materials Science Engineering. I never worked a day as an engineer. I'm an SAP consultant. I didn't even know what SAP was when I took the job. When I started in this field many of my experienced associates had no degree, and they were charging hourly rates just as high as those who did...and the degree was no indicator of who the best resource was. Today my company doesn't hire any employees (SAP consultants) without degrees...ever.

Education is important, but with information so readily available at our fingertips I firmly believe that college does not need to be the sole path of extending your education beyond high school. It has become an astronomically costly achievement that benefits you not because it provided you with something tangible in many cases, but rather because the achievement itself has become required. It just doesn't make sense in my opinion.

/rantoff :)

(01-14-2015 07:26 AM)applegbt Wrote:  It will never happen, but I would like to see it start with employers who currently require a college degree for positions within their company just because it has become SOP. There are certainly many jobs that require specialized education, but there are many that don't. I've built a nice career in IT, for example.

My degree is in Materials Science Engineering. I never worked a day as an engineer. I'm an SAP consultant. I didn't even know what SAP was when I took the job. When I started in this field many of my experienced associates had no degree, and they were charging hourly rates just as high as those who did...and the degree was no indicator of who the best resource was. Today my company doesn't hire any employees (SAP consultants) without degrees...ever.

Education is important, but with information so readily available at our fingertips I firmly believe that college does not need to be the sole path of extending your education beyond high school. It has become an astronomically costly achievement that benefits you not because it provided you with something tangible in many cases, but rather because the achievement itself has become required. It just doesn't make sense in my opinion.

/rantoff :)

In the same respect, without the strong indication that you understand technology, higher level processes, and troubleshooting that your engineering degree gave your employers, you wouldn't have gotten that job. To some extent, a college degree is used as a benchmark because employers know what they're getting. Since many for-profit and community colleges are not regulated at the same level as 4-year institutions employers have no clue if they're getting a well-educated prospect, or one that took 20 courses online that didn't teach them jack sh*t. The hiring numbers prove this too...community college grads get left out in the cold at a much higher clip than those with 4-year degrees, even for jobs they're qualified for.

(01-13-2015 11:54 AM)Eastside_J Wrote:  IMO we are witnessing a massive bubble - in some cases the cost of a college education plus debt service may no longer be worth the time and money invested. I am beginning to wonder whether the endowment and sports fundraising era is soon coming to a close.

Thoughts?

IMO, this bubble is being driven by human resources specialists. Sometime in the past 2 decades, HR divisions in nearly every company have started requiring a college degree for every job even if the responsibilities do not warrant it.

If you think of a person's skills as having value (like a stock), people's skills are overvalued if they have a college degree. But unlike a stock market bubble, you don't have tens of thousands of the smartest people in the Western World waiting around like vultures to bring down the price of overvalued job skills. You can't *short* job skills like you can short stocks or even real estate (yes, you can short real estate by buying a put on a REIT, although it's not as effective at correcting prices as shorting, say, P&G). So the bubble can't be *burst* from the outside; it has to be burst by the HR profession itself.

What will change the HR community's collective minds on this topic? I don't know the incentive structures in that industry, but my guess is that adding a line that says "college degree required" to a job posting is a CYA tactic. So my guess is that the college bubble will continue to inflate as long as mid-level HR employees need to cover their asses (in other words, it could be a long, long time).

(01-13-2015 09:01 PM)pobearman Wrote:  It is when we decide it is too expensive. College debt is a huge burden on the economy. I would love to see a debt jubilee and the money to pay for it come from college endowments. A major cause of the increase is the increase in admin costs, not actual academic costs. Huge amounts of useless expenditures.

Part of why UC is so great. I put aside about $500 per year for each of my kids since birth (not chicken feed, but not exactly a major crimp in our budget). Combine that with a job the summer before school and freshman year was pretty much covered. Now their co-op jobs (way to go UC!) cover the rest. My girls should get out debt free.

(01-14-2015 04:26 PM)Bruce Monnin Wrote:  

(01-13-2015 09:01 PM)pobearman Wrote:  It is when we decide it is too expensive. College debt is a huge burden on the economy. I would love to see a debt jubilee and the money to pay for it come from college endowments. A major cause of the increase is the increase in admin costs, not actual academic costs. Huge amounts of useless expenditures.

Part of why UC is so great. I put aside about $500 per year for each of my kids since birth (not chicken feed, but not exactly a major crimp in our budget). Combine that with a job the summer before school and freshman year was pretty much covered. Now their co-op jobs (way to go UC!) cover the rest. My girls should get out debt free.

Just off the cuff... How does $9,000 plus interest and appreciation and two summer jobs plus coop cover everything? Is coop really that lucrative?

(01-14-2015 04:44 PM)BearcatsUC Wrote:  

(01-14-2015 04:26 PM)Bruce Monnin Wrote:  

(01-13-2015 09:01 PM)pobearman Wrote:  It is when we decide it is too expensive. College debt is a huge burden on the economy. I would love to see a debt jubilee and the money to pay for it come from college endowments. A major cause of the increase is the increase in admin costs, not actual academic costs. Huge amounts of useless expenditures.

Part of why UC is so great. I put aside about $500 per year for each of my kids since birth (not chicken feed, but not exactly a major crimp in our budget). Combine that with a job the summer before school and freshman year was pretty much covered. Now their co-op jobs (way to go UC!) cover the rest. My girls should get out debt free.

Just off the cuff... How does $9,000 plus interest and appreciation and two summer jobs plus coop cover everything? Is coop really that lucrative?

Co-ops can commonly make in the range of $20 per hour (at least in engineering) which is about $20k per year. That will cover tuition and living expenses for the time they aren't in school but won't cover senior year when they don't have a co-op.

(01-14-2015 05:06 PM)qsilvr2531 Wrote:  

(01-14-2015 04:44 PM)BearcatsUC Wrote:  

(01-14-2015 04:26 PM)Bruce Monnin Wrote:  

(01-13-2015 09:01 PM)pobearman Wrote:  It is when we decide it is too expensive. College debt is a huge burden on the economy. I would love to see a debt jubilee and the money to pay for it come from college endowments. A major cause of the increase is the increase in admin costs, not actual academic costs. Huge amounts of useless expenditures.

Part of why UC is so great. I put aside about $500 per year for each of my kids since birth (not chicken feed, but not exactly a major crimp in our budget). Combine that with a job the summer before school and freshman year was pretty much covered. Now their co-op jobs (way to go UC!) cover the rest. My girls should get out debt free.

Just off the cuff... How does $9,000 plus interest and appreciation and two summer jobs plus coop cover everything? Is coop really that lucrative?

Co-ops can commonly make in the range of $20 per hour (at least in engineering) which is about $20k per year. That will cover tuition and living expenses for the time they aren't in school but won't cover senior year when they don't have a co-op.

Yeah, in 5 co-op terms (had one waived for study abroad), I made close to $45,000, that all went into savings/investments due to the scholarships I had, but it still would've been more than enough to subsidize most of my tuition regardless. That's nowhere near the top that I've heard. The Chem-E's make closer to $60,000-$70,000 range in 6 co-ops, but some work astronomical hours.

My last internship (marketing undergrad) I made $15/hr and thought I was rich.

(01-14-2015 05:10 PM)BearcatMan Wrote:  

(01-14-2015 05:06 PM)qsilvr2531 Wrote:  

(01-14-2015 04:44 PM)BearcatsUC Wrote:  

(01-14-2015 04:26 PM)Bruce Monnin Wrote:  

(01-13-2015 09:01 PM)pobearman Wrote:  It is when we decide it is too expensive. College debt is a huge burden on the economy. I would love to see a debt jubilee and the money to pay for it come from college endowments. A major cause of the increase is the increase in admin costs, not actual academic costs. Huge amounts of useless expenditures.

Part of why UC is so great. I put aside about $500 per year for each of my kids since birth (not chicken feed, but not exactly a major crimp in our budget). Combine that with a job the summer before school and freshman year was pretty much covered. Now their co-op jobs (way to go UC!) cover the rest. My girls should get out debt free.

Just off the cuff... How does $9,000 plus interest and appreciation and two summer jobs plus coop cover everything? Is coop really that lucrative?

Co-ops can commonly make in the range of $20 per hour (at least in engineering) which is about $20k per year. That will cover tuition and living expenses for the time they aren't in school but won't cover senior year when they don't have a co-op.

Yeah, in 5 co-op terms (had one waived for study abroad), I made close to $45,000, that all went into savings/investments due to the scholarships I had, but it still would've been more than enough to subsidize most of my tuition regardless. That's nowhere near the top that I've heard. The Chem-E's make closer to $60,000-$70,000 range in 6 co-ops, but some work astronomical hours.

My senior year, working 2 full quarters and 2 part time quarters while taking classes, I grossed just over $30k working a ton of hours (loved the time and a half) in public accounting.