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Conference reset
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ken d Online
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Post: #1
Conference reset
There are a lot of schools who wish they were in a P5 conference, and believe they are just as deserving as some schools who already are. Of course, they are right. The 64 teams in those conferences are not the 64 best football programs. Some schools are there purely because of being in the right place many years ago when college football was very different than it is today.

So which schools are those lucky ones? If there were a magic reset button that required every conference to reconstitute its membership today, and if they were only allowed to keep nine members in each conference, which schools would wind up in what is now the P5? Would they be the best football programs, or would some be retained because they have other virtues?

For each P5 conference, which schools do you think would stay together, and which would have to find a new home? If it is the conference you root for, would you personally make the same decision that you think they schools themselves would?

I'll start with the PAC 12, because I don't think there are many fans of that conference on this site. The two most obvious candidates to be cut would seem to be Utah and Colorado, the last two added. If you cut those two, who would be the third and last casualty? Would you split Arizona and Arizona State? Or would long time member Washington State get the axe? Would Utah be spared in favor of Oregon State on the grounds that Oregon already delivers that state for media purposes?

My money is on Washington State, Utah and Colorado coming up short. But it's a close call. The nine team limit forces very difficult decisions. There are 64 P5 teams. Cutting 19 of them is a real challenge.
01-11-2015 05:02 PM
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MinerInWisconsin Offline
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Post: #2
RE: Conference reset
(01-11-2015 05:02 PM)ken d Wrote:  There are a lot of schools who wish they were in a P5 conference, and believe they are just as deserving as some schools who already are. Of course, they are right. The 64 teams in those conferences are not the 64 best football programs. Some schools are there purely because of being in the right place many years ago when college football was very different than it is today.

So which schools are those lucky ones? If there were a magic reset button that required every conference to reconstitute its membership today, and if they were only allowed to keep nine members in each conference, which schools would wind up in what is now the P5? Would they be the best football programs, or would some be retained because they have other virtues?

For each P5 conference, which schools do you think would stay together, and which would have to find a new home? If it is the conference you root for, would you personally make the same decision that you think they schools themselves would?

I'll start with the PAC 12, because I don't think there are many fans of that conference on this site. The two most obvious candidates to be cut would seem to be Utah and Colorado, the last two added. If you cut those two, who would be the third and last casualty? Would you split Arizona and Arizona State? Or would long time member Washington State get the axe? Would Utah be spared in favor of Oregon State on the grounds that Oregon already delivers that state for media purposes?

My money is on Washington State, Utah and Colorado coming up short. But it's a close call. The nine team limit forces very difficult decisions. There are 64 P5 teams. Cutting 19 of them is a real challenge.

What entity is going to tell the conferences they can only have 9 schools? The ncaa? It's the conferences and networks running things, not the ncaa.
01-11-2015 06:09 PM
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10thMountain Offline
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Post: #3
RE: Conference reset
The 9 teams is dumb. The NCAA can establish minimums but not maximums.

But also, the truth is no matter how much it pisses off the G5, the ACC would not trade Miami for UCF. The PAC would not trade WSU for BSU.
01-11-2015 06:43 PM
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goofus Offline
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Post: #4
RE: Conference reset
The Big 54

West
USC, UCLA, Stan, Cal, Ariz, Ore, Wash, Utah, Col

Central
Texas, Tx Tech, Ok, OkSU, Kan, Neb, Mizzou, Ark, Iowa St

North
Minn, Iowa, Wisc, ILL, Mich St, Mich, Indy, Pur, Ohio St

East
Penn St, Pitt, WV, Lou, SYR, Rut, MD, BC, ND

Atlantic
Flor St, Miami, Ga Tech, Clemson, UNC, NCSU, Va, Va Tech, S.Car

South
FLA, Ga, Bama, Auburn, Tenn, KY, ole miss, LSU, Tx A&M

Out
Wash St, Ore St, Ariz St, TCU, Baylor, Kan St, NW, Wake, Duke, Miss St, VANDY
01-11-2015 06:44 PM
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He1nousOne Offline
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Post: #5
RE: Conference reset
(01-11-2015 06:44 PM)goofus Wrote:  The Big 54

West
USC, UCLA, Stan, Cal, Ariz, Ore, Wash, Utah, Col

Central
Texas, Tx Tech, Ok, OkSU, Kan, Neb, Mizzou, Ark, Iowa St

North
Minn, Iowa, Wisc, ILL, Mich St, Mich, Indy, Pur, Ohio St

East
Penn St, Pitt, WV, Lou, SYR, Rut, MD, BC, ND

Atlantic
Flor St, Miami, Ga Tech, Clemson, UNC, NCSU, Va, Va Tech, S.Car

South
FLA, Ga, Bama, Auburn, Tenn, KY, ole miss, LSU, Tx A&M

Out
Wash St, Ore St, Ariz St, TCU, Baylor, Kan St, NW, Wake, Duke, Miss St, VANDY

Most folks don't realize that Arizona State is the largest State school in the country. Arizona State with it's 70k plus and it's location in Phoenix Metro would keep it around.

That isn't me giving this idea any credence, just addressing the viewpoint of Arizona State being in that regard.
01-11-2015 07:07 PM
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Wolfman Offline
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Post: #6
RE: Conference reset
The problem is that you are looking at football only. Yes, football is king, but these schools play a lot of other sports. That is why schools like Duke are in right now. They also have relationships that extend beyond the playing field.

Duke is about the same size as Miami with nearly 10 times the endowment (no jokes please!). There is no reason hey can't be successful.
01-11-2015 07:25 PM
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CardFan1 Offline
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Post: #7
RE: Conference reset
(01-11-2015 06:44 PM)goofus Wrote:  The Big 54

West
USC, UCLA, Stan, Cal, Ariz, Ore, Wash, Utah, Col

Central
Texas, AZ State, Ok, OkSU, Kan, Neb, Mizzou, Ark, Iowa St

North
Minn, Iowa, Wisc, ILL, Mich St, Mich, Indy, Pur, Ohio St

East
Penn St, Pitt, WV, Lou, SYR, Rut, MD, BC, ND

Atlantic
Flor St, Miami, Ga Tech, Clemson, UNC, NCSU, Va, Va Tech, S.Car

South
FLA, Ga, Bama, Auburn, Tenn, KY, ole miss, LSU, Tx A&M

Out
Wash St, Ore St, Texas Tech, TCU, Baylor, Kan St, NW, Wake, Duke, Miss St, VANDY

Sorry Techies but AZ State makes much more since here
01-11-2015 07:28 PM
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He1nousOne Offline
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Post: #8
RE: Conference reset
(01-11-2015 07:28 PM)CardFan1 Wrote:  
(01-11-2015 06:44 PM)goofus Wrote:  The Big 54

West
USC, UCLA, Stan, Cal, Ariz, Ore, Wash, Utah, Col

Central
Texas, AZ State, Ok, OkSU, Kan, Neb, Mizzou, Ark, Iowa St

North
Minn, Iowa, Wisc, ILL, Mich St, Mich, Indy, Pur, Ohio St

East
Penn St, Pitt, WV, Lou, SYR, Rut, MD, BC, ND

Atlantic
Flor St, Miami, Ga Tech, Clemson, UNC, NCSU, Va, Va Tech, S.Car

South
FLA, Ga, Bama, Auburn, Tenn, KY, ole miss, LSU, Tx A&M

Out
Wash St, Ore St, Texas Tech, TCU, Baylor, Kan St, NW, Wake, Duke, Miss St, VANDY

Sorry Techies but AZ State makes much more since here

Now swap Colorado and Arizona State.
01-11-2015 10:22 PM
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Wedge Offline
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Post: #9
RE: Conference reset
(01-11-2015 10:22 PM)He1nousOne Wrote:  
(01-11-2015 07:28 PM)CardFan1 Wrote:  
(01-11-2015 06:44 PM)goofus Wrote:  The Big 54

West
USC, UCLA, Stan, Cal, Ariz, Ore, Wash, Utah, Col

Central
Texas, AZ State, Ok, OkSU, Kan, Neb, Mizzou, Ark, Iowa St

North
Minn, Iowa, Wisc, ILL, Mich St, Mich, Indy, Pur, Ohio St

East
Penn St, Pitt, WV, Lou, SYR, Rut, MD, BC, ND

Atlantic
Flor St, Miami, Ga Tech, Clemson, UNC, NCSU, Va, Va Tech, S.Car

South
FLA, Ga, Bama, Auburn, Tenn, KY, ole miss, LSU, Tx A&M

Out
Wash St, Ore St, Texas Tech, TCU, Baylor, Kan St, NW, Wake, Duke, Miss St, VANDY

Sorry Techies but AZ State makes much more since here

Now swap Colorado and Arizona State.



01-11-2015 10:55 PM
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BruceMcF Offline
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Post: #10
RE: Conference reset
The NCAA imposes that rule, the Big Ten leaves the NCAA and forms their own athletic association.

And changing economics cannot impose that rule, since there's no way that changing economics can result in EXACTLY nine being viable for all circumstances around the country.
01-11-2015 11:14 PM
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lew240z Offline
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Post: #11
RE: Conference reset
(01-11-2015 11:14 PM)BruceMcF Wrote:  The NCAA imposes that rule, the Big Ten leaves the NCAA and forms their own athletic association.

Not quite. The entire FBS withdraws together.
01-11-2015 11:21 PM
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BruceMcF Offline
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Post: #12
RE: Conference reset
(01-11-2015 11:21 PM)lew240z Wrote:  
(01-11-2015 11:14 PM)BruceMcF Wrote:  The NCAA imposes that rule, the Big Ten leaves the NCAA and forms their own athletic association.

Not quite. The entire FBS withdraws together.
Certainly the P5 leave. The Go5 get to go as well if the TV people says that they need enough schools to hold a 64 game BBall championship.

And since its the majority of the BBall championship money that goes to prop up the NCAA that is the major pot of money that the P5 conferences do not get at present, there is a quite reasonable chance that the Go5 gets to go as well.
01-11-2015 11:37 PM
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He1nousOne Offline
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RE: Conference reset
(01-11-2015 10:55 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(01-11-2015 10:22 PM)He1nousOne Wrote:  
(01-11-2015 07:28 PM)CardFan1 Wrote:  
(01-11-2015 06:44 PM)goofus Wrote:  The Big 54

West
USC, UCLA, Stan, Cal, Ariz, Ore, Wash, Utah, Col

Central
Texas, AZ State, Ok, OkSU, Kan, Neb, Mizzou, Ark, Iowa St

North
Minn, Iowa, Wisc, ILL, Mich St, Mich, Indy, Pur, Ohio St

East
Penn St, Pitt, WV, Lou, SYR, Rut, MD, BC, ND

Atlantic
Flor St, Miami, Ga Tech, Clemson, UNC, NCSU, Va, Va Tech, S.Car

South
FLA, Ga, Bama, Auburn, Tenn, KY, ole miss, LSU, Tx A&M

Out
Wash St, Ore St, Texas Tech, TCU, Baylor, Kan St, NW, Wake, Duke, Miss St, VANDY

Sorry Techies but AZ State makes much more since here

Now swap Colorado and Arizona State.




Perfect Wedge...perfect.
01-12-2015 12:42 AM
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ken d Online
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Post: #14
RE: Conference reset
(01-11-2015 06:44 PM)goofus Wrote:  The Big 54

West
USC, UCLA, Stan, Cal, Ariz, Ore, Wash, Utah, Col

Central
Texas, Tx Tech, Ok, OkSU, Kan, Neb, Mizzou, Ark, Iowa St

North
Minn, Iowa, Wisc, ILL, Mich St, Mich, Indy, Pur, Ohio St

East
Penn St, Pitt, WV, Lou, SYR, Rut, MD, BC, ND

Atlantic
Flor St, Miami, Ga Tech, Clemson, UNC, NCSU, Va, Va Tech, S.Car

South
FLA, Ga, Bama, Auburn, Tenn, KY, ole miss, LSU, Tx A&M

Out
Wash St, Ore St, Ariz St, TCU, Baylor, Kan St, NW, Wake, Duke, Miss St, VANDY

Interesting that you created a sixth conference to include 54 schools instead of just 45. I was also surprised by some of your individual school choices. I would have expected that one of the least likely schools to land on its feet was Iowa State. Yet you keep them ahead of four other schools in the Big 12. I'd be curious about your thought process there.

I'd also be willing to bet that at least 95% of fans would expect Wake Forest to be left out, as you did. But I would really be curious how many think Duke would be dropped, given their dominant position as a basketball power. I could easily see NC State being dropped by the ACC before they would drop Duke. But that's exactly the kind of existential question I was seeking answers to with this thread. If forced to make painful decisions, what do the different conferences see themselves as?
01-12-2015 11:46 AM
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Post: #15
RE: Conference reset
(01-11-2015 05:02 PM)ken d Wrote:  I'll start with the PAC 12, because I don't think there are many fans of that conference on this site. The two most obvious candidates to be cut would seem to be Utah and Colorado, the last two added. If you cut those two, who would be the third and last casualty? Would you split Arizona and Arizona State? Or would long time member Washington State get the axe? Would Utah be spared in favor of Oregon State on the grounds that Oregon already delivers that state for media purposes?

My money is on Washington State, Utah and Colorado coming up short. But it's a close call. The nine team limit forces very difficult decisions. There are 64 P5 teams. Cutting 19 of them is a real challenge.
r PAC12 addressed this theoretical question a little.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Pac12/comments/2...mportance/

The thing that people seem to neglect is that someone has to be at the bottom of these power conferences. If you shrink to 54, you still wind up with a different cohort of programs that are perennial losers. No matter how many times you cut out the underperforming programs, the next cycle is going to have teams that lose. It's not that those programs have nothing going for them, it's that they're underresourced relative to their competition.

There are some advantages to being a big fish in a little pond- you recruit kids who are winners, you get to give underclassmen a lot of experience in games against the dregs of college football which results being able to better develop talent than a lot of the major conference programs. Nobody notices your down years because you still notch 9-10 wins. In a lot of ways running a top mid-major program is diferent, if not easier, than running a bottom tier major program. The problem with this scheme and a lot of the relegation based schemes is that any team that moves up or moves down has to learn to recruit, play, and win in an entirely different manner. Leach is the right coach for a disadvantaged WSU team that has to have a very flashy recruiter and has to take a lot of risks to win games. Leach would be a terrible coach for a WSU team in the MWC that is more talented than its competition 10 weeks out of the year and gets farther by playing mistake free than taking big risks.
(This post was last modified: 01-12-2015 01:06 PM by jrj84105.)
01-12-2015 12:48 PM
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CardFan1 Offline
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Post: #16
RE: Conference reset
I watched the Cincinnati and UConn Basketball game Saturday and I can tell You there is No fall off from a Good G5 program and a Good P5 program. The intensity was Sizzling and the Fans sure acted like it didn't occur to Them that They are left out of P5 caliper games. There are G5 schools that could Destroy many p5 programs . AAC, Big East still have a shot to be Final Four programs. How could anyone see it otherwise. I still think future realignment will strongly consider adding strong Basketball programs and if Those schools also have Good football the Better.
01-12-2015 01:51 PM
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RE: Conference reset
(01-12-2015 01:51 PM)CardFan1 Wrote:  I watched the Cincinnati and UConn Basketball game Saturday and I can tell You there is No fall off from a Good G5 program and a Good P5 program. The intensity was Sizzling and the Fans sure acted like it didn't occur to Them that They are left out of P5 caliper games. There are G5 schools that could Destroy many p5 programs . AAC, Big East still have a shot to be Final Four programs. How could anyone see it otherwise. I still think future realignment will strongly consider adding strong Basketball programs and if Those schools also have Good football the Better.

I appreciate your thoughts, but telling people UConn basketball isn't much of a fall off from P5 basketball is like saying U.S.A. basketball isn't much of a fall off from Italian basketball.
01-12-2015 07:51 PM
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chargeradio Offline
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Post: #18
Conference reset
Let's really reset things:

Pac 9 - Pac 12 less Colorado, Utah, Arizona
Big 8 - old Big 8 plus Utah
Big 10 - drops Nebraska, Penn State, Maryland, Rutgers, Michigan State
SEC - drops Missouri, Arkansas, Texas A&M, South Carolina, LSU
SWC - Texas, Texas A&M, Baylor, TCU, Arkansas, LSU, Arizona, Memphis, UTEP
ACC - drops Miami (FL), Syracuse, Pittsburgh, Boston College, Louisville, Virginia Tech, adds Maryland
Big East - Syracuse, Pittsburgh, Connecticut, West Virginia, Miami (FL), South Carolina, Boston College, Virginia Tech, Rutgers
American Athletic - Michigan State, Penn State, Louisville, Cincinnati, BYU, Boise State, SMU, Houston, Central Florida

Bowl tie-ins (even years)
Rose - Big 10 vs Pac 9
Fiesta - SWC vs Big 8
Orange - Big East vs ACC
Sugar - SEC vs American Athletic

Bowl tie-ins (odd years)
Holiday - Big 8 vs Pac 9
Cotton - SWC vs SEC
Peach - ACC vs American Athletic
Outback - Big 10 vs Big East


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(This post was last modified: 01-12-2015 11:27 PM by chargeradio.)
01-12-2015 11:21 PM
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HeartOfDixie Offline
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RE: Conference reset
Why would LSU be in the SWC? They are a founding member of the SEC.
01-12-2015 11:23 PM
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goofus Offline
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RE: Conference reset
(01-12-2015 11:46 AM)ken d Wrote:  
(01-11-2015 06:44 PM)goofus Wrote:  The Big 54

West
USC, UCLA, Stan, Cal, Ariz, Ore, Wash, Utah, Col

Central
Texas, Tx Tech, Ok, OkSU, Kan, Neb, Mizzou, Ark, Iowa St

North
Minn, Iowa, Wisc, ILL, Mich St, Mich, Indy, Pur, Ohio St

East
Penn St, Pitt, WV, Lou, SYR, Rut, MD, BC, ND

Atlantic
Flor St, Miami, Ga Tech, Clemson, UNC, NCSU, Va, Va Tech, S.Car

South
FLA, Ga, Bama, Auburn, Tenn, KY, ole miss, LSU, Tx A&M

Out
Wash St, Ore St, Ariz St, TCU, Baylor, Kan St, NW, Wake, Duke, Miss St, VANDY

Interesting that you created a sixth conference to include 54 schools instead of just 45. I was also surprised by some of your individual school choices. I would have expected that one of the least likely schools to land on its feet was Iowa State. Yet you keep them ahead of four other schools in the Big 12. I'd be curious about your thought process there.

I'd also be willing to bet that at least 95% of fans would expect Wake Forest to be left out, as you did. But I would really be curious how many think Duke would be dropped, given their dominant position as a basketball power. I could easily see NC State being dropped by the ACC before they would drop Duke. But that's exactly the kind of existential question I was seeking answers to with this thread. If forced to make painful decisions, what do the different conferences see themselves as?

Idk, I recently went through an exercise where B12, B10, ACC hypothetically merged, added Uconn and was called the Big 40, then split into 4 10-team divisions (north, central, east, atlantic). So that was fresh in my mind and thats why I added the east division. That was my starting point.

Everything was tweaked from there. I then took out 4 teams, from the Big 40. NW, Wake, TCU, and Uconn (who was the 40th team added).

The pac-12 i just took out what is percieved to be the 2nd school in the smaller states just to get the pac-12 down to 9.

SO my original goal was to shrink the SEC down to 9 but thats when I started shifting everything around. Miss State and Vandy seemed logical to cut.

But then I got to the other 12, it was not so easy. So I had already moved Neb back to the central, might as well move Mizzou back, and cut Baylor. Then it is well known that Ark geographically is closer to the central and was once part of SWC, so I moved Arky to Central.

so then I had to choose to cut either Kan St, Iowa St. I chose to cut Kansas St. Low population state, bad academics.

Next I moved S. Car to the atlantic, and cut Duke. I thought about cutting Pitt, Lou, or BC. Mostly it was a population thing the Carolinas already had 4 schools.
(This post was last modified: 01-17-2015 11:06 AM by goofus.)
01-13-2015 09:35 AM
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