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[Question] Is Boise St's win over Arizona a "signature" win
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owl95 Offline
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[Question] Is Boise St's win over Arizona a "signature" win
20th ranked Boise St got the Access Bowl this year and played 10th ranked Arizona(The Toad) in the Fiesta Bowl and won. Is this a signature win?

Pros: This is 10 spot G5 upset in a top tier bowl.
Cons: It's Arizona. Does anyone care that they were ranked 10th?

My perception(this is purely my opinion as a college football fan) is no. In fact, if I was a conspiracy theorist, I'd say this was almost a matchup guaranteed to keep the G5 brand down. You make Boise St, a 10 rank underdog against a no-name top 10 team. Top 10 team loses, no one's P5 brand is tarnished, Boise St loses, you can point out how bad even the best G5 team is. It's almost like when TCU and Boise St had to play each other every time. We can't let an upstart G5 program, let alone two upstarts beat on the major brands in college football, let's get them to play each other!

I'm glad Boise St won, but I think this win does nothing for national perception of the best G5 teams. Why couldn't Boise St have played a Michigan St(on the high end) or UCLA, or Georgia Tech, or Missouri on the low end?

If it was just this one time, then whatever, they drew the #10 team, but this seems to keep happening to Boise St over the last decade.
(This post was last modified: 01-10-2015 08:52 PM by owl95.)
01-10-2015 08:45 PM
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waltgreenberg Offline
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RE: [Question] Is Boise St's win over Arizona a "signature" win
To respond with my own personal perspective-- no, I would not view it as a "signature win" for the Boise St. program for 2 reasons...

1. Arizona is not currently perceived nationally as a perrenial power, regardless of it's ranking (whereas UT and Michigan are even if they're having down years).

2. Boise State doesn't have anything left to prove nationally. Thanks to their numerous signature wins over the past 10 - 15 years-- several on the biggest stage, and their consistent string of 9+ win seasons, Boise State already perceived by many as a perennial power, despite being stuck in the MWC. Consequently, they no longer qualify for signature wins. Statement wins? For sure, but their signature wins were in the past and got them to where they are today and how they are perceived today. They are the ONLY G5 program widely perceived as a perennial national power. IMO, signature wins are only relevant for programs still seeking to elevate themselves and establish themselves. Once you're there, big wins against elite competition are not longer "signature" in nature.
(This post was last modified: 01-10-2015 09:13 PM by waltgreenberg.)
01-10-2015 09:10 PM
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owl95 Offline
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RE: [Question] Is Boise St's win over Arizona a "signature" win
Walt, I completely agree with your #1. I'm not sure I agree with your #2. Boise St IS perceived as a good team nationally, but they are not playing with the big boys and they never get a chance to. How many wins in bowls against the perennial powers do they have?

Wikipedia here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Boi...bowl_games

Based on this list, they only have 1 OT win against Oklahoma in the 2007 Fiesta Bowl. Sure Boise St is considered a good team, but when will they be allowed to play with the true big boys? They have 1 game in 15 years of excellence, none against the Ohio States, the SEC powers, the Big 10 or Big 12 powers, look at where TCU and Baylor are in comparison to where Boise St is. It doesn't matter how good Boise St, this is the curse of the G5 "brand". TPTB don't want any G5 whether it's Boise St, or TCU back then beating an established P5 brand name, sure they'll toss you an upstart Arizona in an Access Bowl, but are you in the conversation for a playoff spot? NO. Will you get to play a Michigan State/Georgia Tech/Missouri? NO.

And in this case there really is a "they". Them being the Selection Committee, of course, who actually make the matchups and "they" have been doing this for years.

Edit: And I'll buy your distinction between signature and statement wins, however, I don't think beating Arizona is a "Statement" win either. Basically, the committee figured out a way to rob most of Boise St's glory this year, win or lose in the bowl, and by extension the rest of G5. Diabolical!
(This post was last modified: 01-10-2015 09:46 PM by owl95.)
01-10-2015 09:41 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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RE: [Question] Is Boise St's win over Arizona a "signature" win
Todd Graham is at Arizona State. Rich Rod is at Zona.
01-10-2015 09:59 PM
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Rick Gerlach Offline
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RE: [Question] Is Boise St's win over Arizona a "signature" win
(01-10-2015 09:41 PM)owl95 Wrote:  Walt, I completely agree with your #1. I'm not sure I agree with your #2. Boise St IS perceived as a good team nationally, but they are not playing with the big boys and they never get a chance to. How many wins in bowls against the perennial powers do they have?

Wikipedia here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Boi...bowl_games

Based on this list, they only have 1 OT win against Oklahoma in the 2007 Fiesta Bowl. Sure Boise St is considered a good team, but when will they be allowed to play with the true big boys? They have 1 game in 15 years of excellence, none against the Ohio States, the SEC powers, the Big 10 or Big 12 powers, look at where TCU and Baylor are in comparison to where Boise St is. It doesn't matter how good Boise St, this is the curse of the G5 "brand". TPTB don't want any G5 whether it's Boise St, or TCU back then beating an established P5 brand name, sure they'll toss you an upstart Arizona in an Access Bowl, but are you in the conversation for a playoff spot? NO. Will you get to play a Michigan State/Georgia Tech/Missouri? NO.

And in this case there really is a "they". Them being the Selection Committee, of course, who actually make the matchups and "they" have been doing this for years.

Edit: And I'll buy your distinction between signature and statement wins, however, I don't think beating Arizona is a "Statement" win either. Basically, the committee figured out a way to rob most of Boise St's glory this year, win or lose in the bowl, and by extension the rest of G5. Diabolical!

I see it the opposite.

We're splitting hairs. Regarding point 1? Yeah, Arizona is a P5 Top 10 team, but it's still not good enough because it's not one of a handful of programs considered super-duper-elite? Not Texas, USC, Florida or University of Miami? Too bad, doesn't count, even if Arizona is better than those storied programs this year. I don't buy that. It's one of the premiere bowls, Arizona is a Top 10 program.

On the other hand, Walt is right on with point #2. I don't see this as an upset. I doubt that after the last 15 years, and all of Boise's 10+ wins seasons, and all of their P5 wins (and they have a bunch besides bowl games), that even the most elitist P5 fans are saying:

"Wow, I can't believe Boise was even in that game", or "Gee, this is like Appalachian State beating Michigan"

It's more like "Man, Boise is always good, they can play with anyone. They are one tough team"

Seriously, is there anyone on this board who sees Boise beating Arizona as an upset, or much less a shocker?
(This post was last modified: 01-10-2015 10:12 PM by Rick Gerlach.)
01-10-2015 10:04 PM
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waltgreenberg Offline
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RE: [Question] Is Boise St's win over Arizona a "signature" win
(01-10-2015 09:41 PM)owl95 Wrote:  Walt, I completely agree with your #1. I'm not sure I agree with your #2. Boise St IS perceived as a good team nationally, but they are not playing with the big boys and they never get a chance to. How many wins in bowls against the perennial powers do they have?

Wikipedia here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Boi...bowl_games

Based on this list, they only have 1 OT win against Oklahoma in the 2007 Fiesta Bowl. Sure Boise St is considered a good team, but when will they be allowed to play with the true big boys? They have 1 game in 15 years of excellence, none against the Ohio States, the SEC powers, the Big 10 or Big 12 powers, look at where TCU and Baylor are in comparison to where Boise St is. It doesn't matter how good Boise St, this is the curse of the G5 "brand". TPTB don't want any G5 whether it's Boise St, or TCU back then beating an established P5 brand name, sure they'll toss you an upstart Arizona in an Access Bowl, but are you in the conversation for a playoff spot? NO. Will you get to play a Michigan State/Georgia Tech/Missouri? NO.

And in this case there really is a "they". Them being the Selection Committee, of course, who actually make the matchups and "they" have been doing this for years.

Edit: And I'll buy your distinction between signature and statement wins, however, I don't think beating Arizona is a "Statement" win either. Basically, the committee figured out a way to rob most of Boise St's glory this year, win or lose in the bowl, and by extension the rest of G5. Diabolical!

Boise State is locked into being a G5 due to their location, and so long as they're a G5, they're not going to get more than a couple opportunities each year against the "big boys". If we can establish ourselves and elevate our program another notch (showing that we can compete with many P5 teams), we have much more to offer a P5 conference than Boise State ever will.
01-10-2015 10:15 PM
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waltgreenberg Offline
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RE: [Question] Is Boise St's win over Arizona a "signature" win
(01-10-2015 10:04 PM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  
(01-10-2015 09:41 PM)owl95 Wrote:  Walt, I completely agree with your #1. I'm not sure I agree with your #2. Boise St IS perceived as a good team nationally, but they are not playing with the big boys and they never get a chance to. How many wins in bowls against the perennial powers do they have?

Wikipedia here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Boi...bowl_games

Based on this list, they only have 1 OT win against Oklahoma in the 2007 Fiesta Bowl. Sure Boise St is considered a good team, but when will they be allowed to play with the true big boys? They have 1 game in 15 years of excellence, none against the Ohio States, the SEC powers, the Big 10 or Big 12 powers, look at where TCU and Baylor are in comparison to where Boise St is. It doesn't matter how good Boise St, this is the curse of the G5 "brand". TPTB don't want any G5 whether it's Boise St, or TCU back then beating an established P5 brand name, sure they'll toss you an upstart Arizona in an Access Bowl, but are you in the conversation for a playoff spot? NO. Will you get to play a Michigan State/Georgia Tech/Missouri? NO.

And in this case there really is a "they". Them being the Selection Committee, of course, who actually make the matchups and "they" have been doing this for years.

Edit: And I'll buy your distinction between signature and statement wins, however, I don't think beating Arizona is a "Statement" win either. Basically, the committee figured out a way to rob most of Boise St's glory this year, win or lose in the bowl, and by extension the rest of G5. Diabolical!

I see it the opposite.

We're splitting hairs. Regarding point 1? Yeah, Arizona is a P5 Top 10 team, but it's still not good enough because it's not one of a handful of programs considered super-duper-elite? Not Texas, USC, Florida or University of Miami? Too bad, doesn't count, even if Arizona is better than those storied programs this year. I don't buy that. It's one of the premiere bowls, Arizona is a Top 10 program.

On the other hand, Walt is right on with point #2. I don't see this as an upset. I doubt that after the last 15 years, and all of Boise's 10+ wins seasons, and all of their P5 wins (and they have a bunch besides bowl games), that even the most elitist P5 fans are saying:

"Wow, I can't believe Boise was even in that game", or "Gee, this is like Appalachian State beating Michigan"

It's more like "Man, Boise is always good, they can play with anyone. They are one tough team"

Seriously, is there anyone on this board who sees Boise beating Arizona as an upset, or much less a shocker?

Again, Rick, to your first point, a "signature win", by the definition that most (including Dr. K) give it, is one against a perceived national power that brings instant visibility and attention to Rice. It has nothing to do with beat a ranked team, unless said ranked team is perceived to be a national power...and ESPN and other national media outlets highlight the outcome. Beating Marshall last year, despite the conference championship and despite Marshall being borderline Top 25 at the top, was NOT a signature win for the program, as nobody noticed outside of Rice and the rest of CUSA. Yes, it was a HUGE win for the program, but it was not a "signature win". Beating UT next year or beating a down Michigan team or Southern Cal team would be widely perceived nationally as a signature win as it would draw national attention to Rice (even if that attention is only highlighting that Texas lost to Rice). For Rice, residing in the state of Texas and recruiting predominantly from Texas high schools, a win over UT-- even a down UT-- would be a signature win by any definition.

Rick, you appear to be too focused on rankings as a basis for comparison. IMO, being ranked amongst the Top 10 G5s does absolute nothing to our stature as a program nationally unless we can compete with-- and occasionally upset-- Top 50 ranked P5 teams. Just my own personal perspective, and I understand others think differently, but for me, being ranked inside the Top 50 (as we've finished on a couple occasions under Bailiff) means virtually nothing from a national perception standpoint without some signature wins, or at least some wins against P5 programs ranked inside the Top 50. As I've suggested before, I don't think even the most knowledgeable college football fans care who's ranked outside the Top 15 - 20, save for the fans that follow your particular conference. A G5 not named Boise State ranked just inside the Top 25 (let alone the Top 50) just doesn't register with the vast majority of college football fans nationally. What registers is the signature wins. I know, beating a dead horse, but that damn tail continues to twitch.
(This post was last modified: 01-10-2015 10:40 PM by waltgreenberg.)
01-10-2015 10:23 PM
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