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Red State Utah Ending Homelessness with a Handout
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john01992 Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Red State Utah Ending Homelessness with a Handout
(01-10-2015 04:59 PM)Paul M Wrote:  And a lot of these people will still be making regular jail visits.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cop_and_the_Anthem
01-10-2015 05:04 PM
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Fo Shizzle Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Red State Utah Ending Homelessness with a Handout
(01-10-2015 04:59 PM)john01992 Wrote:  
(01-10-2015 04:57 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  
(01-10-2015 04:44 PM)john01992 Wrote:  
(01-10-2015 04:42 PM)Paul M Wrote:  If this wasn't exactly the way government always progresses, you might have an argument about me spouting bs.

well the whole concept/justification of this program is to save the state money. So why your claims that it will be turned into something more than that have any relevance is beyond me.

It's the classic "grasping for straws" talking point that a con retreats to when he has no legitimate counter arguments.

As the program stands now it seems to be doing something positive. I know nothing about this..but..I bet that this program has already expanded in scope since its inception and costs have gone up.

There is no government program ever conceived that seeks to constrain itself. Why? There is no incentive to do so since the money comes from the public. Those that administer these programs are in fact incentivized to grow their programs...not hold them in check. Count me as being almost positive that eventually the citizens of Utah will HATE his program. I looks great now..but..after the bureaucrats expand it and grow it? You can almost bet it will eventually get shut down due to its largesse.

Hey...I hope I am wrong. Maybe this will be the first government social program to be cost efficient, innovative and maintain its scope and budget appropriately. Maybe.

I think the slippery slope argument which is dubious at best is a terrible rationale to not implement a program that is shown to be effective. In others words "don't do something good because I am scared." Oh an please correct me if I am wrong, but isn't low cost gov't provided housing already a thing?

Just once...I'd like to see one of these programs prove me wrong...just once. Maybe this is the first. We will see.07-coffee3
01-10-2015 05:04 PM
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Paul M Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Red State Utah Ending Homelessness with a Handout
(01-10-2015 04:59 PM)john01992 Wrote:  I think the slippery slope argument which is dubious at best

Now your just trying to be funny. That or you have never looked at a single government program. Fo already explained. No need in repeating what everyone, even while arguing otherwise, knows.
01-10-2015 05:06 PM
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john01992 Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Red State Utah Ending Homelessness with a Handout
(01-10-2015 04:56 PM)Paul M Wrote:  No, it's the reality of the situation. As I said, it may save some today but when others migrate there and the program expands, which it most definently will, the saving will vanish. Poof! But glad you never disappoint, falling back on the 'ol ""grasping for straws" talking point that a con retreats to when he has no legitimate counter arguments."

it is a big reach, you are saying that a program written under the idea of saving costs/fiscal responsibility in a deeply conservative state is suddenly going to turn it into a welfare program.

It's a full of s*** talking point.
01-10-2015 05:06 PM
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john01992 Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Red State Utah Ending Homelessness with a Handout
(01-10-2015 05:06 PM)Paul M Wrote:  
(01-10-2015 04:59 PM)john01992 Wrote:  I think the slippery slope argument which is dubious at best

Now your just trying to be funny. That or you have never looked at a single government program. Fo already explained. No need in repeating what everyone, even while arguing otherwise, knows.

it's utah, the state that constantly challenges Mississippi for the title of most conservative. It's a fiscal saving program, not a welfare program. The ideologies between what this program wants to accomplish and your "future slippery slope" concept could not be any further apart.

and in the end you are saying "screw this cost effective program, we can't do this because I am scared into thinking that my dubious, unsubstantiated claim that can be easily resolved might come true"

like I said, its ********
01-10-2015 05:10 PM
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Paul M Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Red State Utah Ending Homelessness with a Handout
Ok.

Far more fruitful talking to brick walls.
(This post was last modified: 01-10-2015 05:12 PM by Paul M.)
01-10-2015 05:12 PM
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Fo Shizzle Offline
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Post: #27
RE: Red State Utah Ending Homelessness with a Handout
(01-10-2015 05:06 PM)john01992 Wrote:  
(01-10-2015 04:56 PM)Paul M Wrote:  No, it's the reality of the situation. As I said, it may save some today but when others migrate there and the program expands, which it most definently will, the saving will vanish. Poof! But glad you never disappoint, falling back on the 'ol ""grasping for straws" talking point that a con retreats to when he has no legitimate counter arguments."

it is a big reach, you are saying that a program written under the idea of saving costs/fiscal responsibility in a deeply conservative state is suddenly going to turn it into a welfare program.

It's a full of s*** talking point.

Not a reach at all. Utah is going to expand Medicaid this year. The governor will bring it before the legislature this year...so they will have free health care...free housing and will receive government assistance to pay for utilities and food. If that is not a TOTAL welfare program...I don't know what is. In fact...Utah has gone full on welfare state with this.

I have a sneaky feeling that this program is nothing more than Mormons wanting to see the homeless gone from their streets..at any cost. If you have ever been to SLC? You would know to what I am referring.
01-10-2015 05:23 PM
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john01992 Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Red State Utah Ending Homelessness with a Handout
(01-10-2015 05:23 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  
(01-10-2015 05:06 PM)john01992 Wrote:  
(01-10-2015 04:56 PM)Paul M Wrote:  No, it's the reality of the situation. As I said, it may save some today but when others migrate there and the program expands, which it most definently will, the saving will vanish. Poof! But glad you never disappoint, falling back on the 'ol ""grasping for straws" talking point that a con retreats to when he has no legitimate counter arguments."

it is a big reach, you are saying that a program written under the idea of saving costs/fiscal responsibility in a deeply conservative state is suddenly going to turn it into a welfare program.

It's a full of s*** talking point.

Not a reach at all. Utah is going to expand Medicaid this year. The governor will bring it before the legislature this year...so they will have free health care...free housing and will receive government assistance to pay for utilities and food. If that is not a TOTAL welfare program...I don't know what is. In fact...Utah has gone full on welfare state with this.

I have a sneaky feeling that this program is nothing more than Mormons wanting to see the homeless gone from their streets..at any cost. If you have ever been to SLC? You would know to what I am referring.

do you have any statements by a politician from Utah, or one with a legitimate shot at becoming one who is saying this is their plan? To turn this into a welfare program. Because until then, it's a grasp.

Rule of thumb, if a non-biased main stream news reporter can't even make the claim, there is no way said claim is legitimate. You need some sort of weight behind your words if you want them to stick with me.
01-10-2015 05:27 PM
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Paul M Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Red State Utah Ending Homelessness with a Handout
(01-10-2015 05:27 PM)john01992 Wrote:  Rule of thumb, if a non-biased main stream news reporter can't even make the claim, there is no way said claim is legitimate.

smfh
01-10-2015 05:33 PM
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dfarr Offline
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Post: #30
RE: Red State Utah Ending Homelessness with a Handout
Apparently having an apartment and a social worker keeps people out of the ER and jail. I don't believe that it's a fair swap. I've worked in the ER. There are plenty of people who aren't homeless who abuse it, so I don't think putting a roof over their heads is going to cut down on the abuse. And unless all the jail costs were from being arrested for malingering, trespassing, or something similar I don't see how there would be significant savings there.
01-10-2015 05:39 PM
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vandiver49 Offline
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Post: #31
RE: Red State Utah Ending Homelessness with a Handout
(01-10-2015 10:56 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Sad that you have to hear about this on The Daily Show.

Utah is Ending Homelessness by Giving People Homes

Quote:In 2005, Utah figured out that the annual cost of E.R. visits and jail stays for homeless people was about $16,670 per person, compared to $11,000 to provide each homeless person with an apartment and a social worker. So, the state began giving away apartments, with no strings attached. Each participant in Utah’s Housing First program also gets a caseworker to help them become self-sufficient, but they keep the apartment even if they fail. The program has been so successful that other states are hoping to achieve similar results with programs modeled on Utah’s.

Didnt we already try this with housing projects and determine it was a bad idea?
01-10-2015 05:50 PM
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Paul M Offline
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Post: #32
RE: Red State Utah Ending Homelessness with a Handout
Being torn down all over the place.
01-10-2015 05:56 PM
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Fo Shizzle Offline
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Post: #33
RE: Red State Utah Ending Homelessness with a Handout
(01-10-2015 05:27 PM)john01992 Wrote:  
(01-10-2015 05:23 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  
(01-10-2015 05:06 PM)john01992 Wrote:  
(01-10-2015 04:56 PM)Paul M Wrote:  No, it's the reality of the situation. As I said, it may save some today but when others migrate there and the program expands, which it most definently will, the saving will vanish. Poof! But glad you never disappoint, falling back on the 'ol ""grasping for straws" talking point that a con retreats to when he has no legitimate counter arguments."

it is a big reach, you are saying that a program written under the idea of saving costs/fiscal responsibility in a deeply conservative state is suddenly going to turn it into a welfare program.

It's a full of s*** talking point.

Not a reach at all. Utah is going to expand Medicaid this year. The governor will bring it before the legislature this year...so they will have free health care...free housing and will receive government assistance to pay for utilities and food. If that is not a TOTAL welfare program...I don't know what is. In fact...Utah has gone full on welfare state with this.

I have a sneaky feeling that this program is nothing more than Mormons wanting to see the homeless gone from their streets..at any cost. If you have ever been to SLC? You would know to what I am referring.

do you have any statements by a politician from Utah, or one with a legitimate shot at becoming one who is saying this is their plan? To turn this into a welfare program. Because until then, it's a grasp.

Rule of thumb, if a non-biased main stream news reporter can't even make the claim, there is no way said claim is legitimate. You need some sort of weight behind your words if you want them to stick with me.

No...I have no information to that effect. Im just observing from afar and speculating..as I said.."a sneaky feeling".

Regardless....It would be a failure of observation to deny that Utah is setting up a system for the homeless that is TOTALLY subsidized in every aspect. It is not a stretch at all to make a prediction that this will incentivize "Freddy the Freeloader" to make a trip to Utah for these benefits. I hope they have a system in place to block such a problem because history is replete with examples of bureaucrats wanting expansion of programs to line their pockets and insure their jobs.

I have no ball in the game..but..this all seems naive at best...foolish at worst. It is so crazy in fact that it lends me to wonder what the motives of this really are and WHO is behind them.05-stirthepot
(This post was last modified: 01-10-2015 06:01 PM by Fo Shizzle.)
01-10-2015 05:59 PM
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Fo Shizzle Offline
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Post: #34
RE: Red State Utah Ending Homelessness with a Handout
(01-10-2015 05:56 PM)Paul M Wrote:  Being torn down all over the place.

Good intentions are the bulwark of Liberalism.
01-10-2015 06:02 PM
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Paul M Offline
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Post: #35
RE: Red State Utah Ending Homelessness with a Handout
Bunch of gays didn't end up n Frisco because the city discouraged them. Dopers are heading to Colorado because... oh hell, I don't know why.
01-10-2015 06:03 PM
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john01992 Offline
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Post: #36
RE: Red State Utah Ending Homelessness with a Handout
(01-10-2015 05:33 PM)Paul M Wrote:  
(01-10-2015 05:27 PM)john01992 Wrote:  Rule of thumb, if a non-biased main stream news reporter can't even make the claim, there is no way said claim is legitimate.

smfh

why because you have to back up your bold claim with facts/evidence?

Gimmie a break dude. Sorry my personal standards (which are perfectly reasonable) are too high for you.
01-10-2015 06:17 PM
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Fo Shizzle Offline
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Post: #37
RE: Red State Utah Ending Homelessness with a Handout
(01-10-2015 06:03 PM)Paul M Wrote:  Bunch of gays didn't end up n Frisco because the city discouraged them. Dopers are heading to Colorado because... oh hell, I don't know why.

Consequences happen.07-coffee3
01-10-2015 06:17 PM
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