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Zimmerman: Menace to Society
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Fitbud Offline
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Post: #41
Re: RE: Zimmerman: Menace to Society
(01-11-2015 09:37 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(01-11-2015 09:21 PM)firmbizzle Wrote:  
(01-11-2015 09:03 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(01-11-2015 08:46 PM)firmbizzle Wrote:  Zimm admits to stalking on the 911 call. They tell him to stand back.

No.

Yes. Listen to the call. He obviously follows Martin.

Stalking is not following.
And obviously nothing he said in the phone call describes what happened after, and what happened after is what matters.
And he was not told to stand back. Standing back was not mentioned. And there was no "they" (plural), there was one person (the 911 operator). And the 911 operator has no directive authority, simply advisory.

I think involuntary manslaughter was possible if the prosecutor could prove that the act of leaving the car was negligent and the final outcome was reasonably foreseeable. But I don't think he rabble rousers allowed the prosecutor to seek involuntary manslaughter.

Agreed.
01-11-2015 10:33 PM
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firmbizzle Offline
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Post: #42
RE: Zimmerman: Menace to Society
(01-11-2015 09:37 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(01-11-2015 09:21 PM)firmbizzle Wrote:  
(01-11-2015 09:03 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(01-11-2015 08:46 PM)firmbizzle Wrote:  Zimm admits to stalking on the 911 call. They tell him to stand back.

No.

Yes. Listen to the call. He obviously follows Martin.

Stalking is not following.
And obviously nothing he said in the phone call describes what happened after, and what happened after is what matters.
And he was not told to stand back. Standing back was not mentioned. And there was no "they" (plural), there was one person (the 911 operator). And the 911 operator has no directive authority, simply advisory.

I think involuntary manslaughter was possible if the prosecutor could prove that the act of leaving the car was negligent and the final outcome was reasonably foreseeable. But I don't think he rabble rousers allowed the prosecutor to seek involuntary manslaughter.

Martin says that he was also being followed during his phone conversation with Jeantel. Zimm admits that he was following Martin. Following someone with a weapon is menacing. If it was a 17 year old female that Zimmerman was following you would feel different.
01-12-2015 03:07 AM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #43
RE: Zimmerman: Menace to Society
(01-12-2015 03:07 AM)firmbizzle Wrote:  Martin says that he was also being followed during his phone conversation with Jeantel.

I believe the correct formulation is that Jeantel said that Martin said. That's heresy, admissible because Martin is dead, but you're probably not going to get a criminal conviction on hearsay, plus the sum of what was said does not constitute a crime.

Quote:
Zimm admits that he was following Martin.

Which isn't stalking and isn't a crime.

Quote:
Following someone with a weapon is menacing.


But not a crime.

Quote:If it was a 17 year old female that Zimmerman was following you would feel different.

Would depend on the context. If he was following her to rape her, yes. If he was following her because he thought she looked suspicious, no. I don't think Zimmerman was following Martin in order to rape him.

Bottom line, even granting you everything you allege, there's nothing there that proves a crime. I think you could get involuntary manslaughter if you could convince the jury that the act of getting out of the car was negligent or reckless. But that's by no means certain. And you don't have any more than that. And what would the Sharptons and Jacksons of the world have done to rouse up the rabble if involuntary manslaughter had been the only charges filed?
(This post was last modified: 01-12-2015 08:53 AM by Owl 69/70/75.)
01-12-2015 08:51 AM
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gdunn Offline
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Post: #44
RE: Zimmerman: Menace to Society
Zimmerman is an idiot.

But I love how some say they'll let something go no matter the outcome, but just can't seem to help themselves.
01-12-2015 09:42 AM
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firmbizzle Offline
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Post: #45
RE: Zimmerman: Menace to Society
(01-12-2015 08:51 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(01-12-2015 03:07 AM)firmbizzle Wrote:  Martin says that he was also being followed during his phone conversation with Jeantel.

I believe the correct formulation is that Jeantel said that Martin said. That's heresy, admissible because Martin is dead, but you're probably not going to get a criminal conviction on hearsay, plus the sum of what was said does not constitute a crime.

Quote:
Zimm admits that he was following Martin.

Which isn't stalking and isn't a crime.

Quote:
Following someone with a weapon is menacing.


But not a crime.

Quote:If it was a 17 year old female that Zimmerman was following you would feel different.

Would depend on the context. If he was following her to rape her, yes. If he was following her because he thought she looked suspicious, no. I don't think Zimmerman was following Martin in order to rape him.

Bottom line, even granting you everything you allege, there's nothing there that proves a crime. I think you could get involuntary manslaughter if you could convince the jury that the act of getting out of the car was negligent or reckless. But that's by no means certain. And you don't have any more than that. And what would the Sharptons and Jacksons of the world have done to rouse up the rabble if involuntary manslaughter had been the only charges filed?

Yes. It is a crime. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menacing

Doesn't matter if Zimmerman wanted to rape Martin or because he though Martin looked suspicious. Zimmerman actively followed Martin with a gun by his own admission, that part of the story is not in question.
01-12-2015 12:12 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #46
RE: Zimmerman: Menace to Society
(01-12-2015 12:12 PM)firmbizzle Wrote:  Yes. It is a crime. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menacing

No, read the statutes. They lay out very specific requirements that are not met by the facts here.

Quote:Doesn't matter if Zimmerman wanted to rape Martin or because he though Martin looked suspicious. Zimmerman actively followed Martin with a gun by his own admission, that part of the story is not in question.

That is also not a crime. Read the statutes.
01-12-2015 12:25 PM
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ECUGrad07 Offline
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Post: #47
RE: Zimmerman: Menace to Society
(01-11-2015 12:20 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  1.He was walking around with a loaded weapon.
2. He was told not to follow suspect but he did anyway.
3. He confronted suspect.

That's just for starters.

1. Legal
2. Legal
3. Legal
01-12-2015 01:36 PM
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Fitbud Offline
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Post: #48
Re: RE: Zimmerman: Menace to Society
(01-12-2015 01:36 PM)ECUGrad07 Wrote:  
(01-11-2015 12:20 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  1.He was walking around with a loaded weapon.
2. He was told not to follow suspect but he did anyway.
3. He confronted suspect.

That's just for starters.

1. Legal
2. Legal
3. Legal

So is driving a car. That doesn't mean it can't be a contributing factor to manslaughter.
01-12-2015 03:03 PM
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ECUGrad07 Offline
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Post: #49
RE: Zimmerman: Menace to Society
(01-12-2015 03:03 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  
(01-12-2015 01:36 PM)ECUGrad07 Wrote:  
(01-11-2015 12:20 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  1.He was walking around with a loaded weapon.
2. He was told not to follow suspect but he did anyway.
3. He confronted suspect.

That's just for starters.

1. Legal
2. Legal
3. Legal

So is driving a car. That doesn't mean it can't be a contributing factor to manslaughter.

How could it possibly be manslaughter when what Zimmerman did was legal?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand-your-ground_law

It's either legal or it isn't. He didn't break the law, so no, manslaughter wouldn't be appropriate. The only appropriate ruling is "Not Guilty."

Get over it.
01-12-2015 03:07 PM
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Fitbud Offline
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Post: #50
Re: RE: Zimmerman: Menace to Society
(01-12-2015 03:07 PM)ECUGrad07 Wrote:  
(01-12-2015 03:03 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  
(01-12-2015 01:36 PM)ECUGrad07 Wrote:  
(01-11-2015 12:20 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  1.He was walking around with a loaded weapon.
2. He was told not to follow suspect but he did anyway.
3. He confronted suspect.

That's just for starters.

1. Legal
2. Legal
3. Legal

So is driving a car. That doesn't mean it can't be a contributing factor to manslaughter.

How could it possibly be manslaughter when what Zimmerman did was legal?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand-your-ground_law

It's either legal or it isn't. He didn't break the law, so no, manslaughter wouldn't be appropriate. The only appropriate ruling is "Not Guilty."

Get over it.

He was found not guilty of murder. The threshold for manslaughter is entirely different.
01-12-2015 08:28 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #51
RE: Zimmerman: Menace to Society
(01-12-2015 08:28 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  He was found not guilty of murder. The threshold for manslaughter is entirely different.

Yes, the threshold for manslaughter is different. But there is a threshold, and it is not at clear that his conduct crossed over it.

I have said before that I think you probably could have gotten an involuntary manslaughter conviction. But,
1. That's probably, not certainly. It would have taken some work, and maybe you get there, maybe you don't. The facts as we have them don't necessarily make the prima facie case for manslaughter.
2. How would the rabble rousers have responded if the prosecution had gone for involuntary manslaughter?
(This post was last modified: 01-12-2015 08:35 PM by Owl 69/70/75.)
01-12-2015 08:34 PM
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Fitbud Offline
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Post: #52
Re: RE: Zimmerman: Menace to Society
(01-12-2015 08:34 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(01-12-2015 08:28 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  He was found not guilty of murder. The threshold for manslaughter is entirely different.

Yes, the threshold for manslaughter is different. But there is a threshold, and it is not at clear that his conduct crossed over it.

I have said before that I think you probably could have gotten an involuntary manslaughter conviction. But,
1. That's probably, not certainly. It would have taken some work, and maybe you get there, maybe you don't. The facts as we have them don't necessarily make the prima facie case for manslaughter.
2. How would the rabble rousers have responded if the prosecution had gone for involuntary manslaughter?

I agree 100 percent. The protests influenced the situation. However, if he had been arrested from the start, their would not have been protests.
01-12-2015 09:54 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #53
RE: Zimmerman: Menace to Society
(01-12-2015 09:54 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  
(01-12-2015 08:34 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(01-12-2015 08:28 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  He was found not guilty of murder. The threshold for manslaughter is entirely different.
Yes, the threshold for manslaughter is different. But there is a threshold, and it is not at clear that his conduct crossed over it.
I have said before that I think you probably could have gotten an involuntary manslaughter conviction. But,
1. That's probably, not certainly. It would have taken some work, and maybe you get there, maybe you don't. The facts as we have them don't necessarily make the prima facie case for manslaughter.
2. How would the rabble rousers have responded if the prosecution had gone for involuntary manslaughter?
I agree 100 percent. The protests influenced the situation. However, if he had been arrested from the start, their would not have been protests.

There wasn't sufficient evidence to arrest him immediately. There wasn't sufficient evidence to arrest him when he was arrested. There wasn't sufficient evidence to arrest him when he was tried. That's why the verdict was not guilty. The rabble rousers caused the problem by pressuring the arrest before there was enough evidence, and that started the speedy trial clock running, and the evidence needed to convict never showed up.
(This post was last modified: 01-13-2015 12:07 AM by Owl 69/70/75.)
01-13-2015 12:04 AM
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HeartOfDixie Offline
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Post: #54
RE: Zimmerman: Menace to Society
There is enough to support a tort action, negligence and reasonable foreseeability.

A crime on the other hand. I just don't see any way to get to criminal negligence.
01-13-2015 12:10 AM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #55
RE: Zimmerman: Menace to Society
(01-13-2015 12:10 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  There is enough to support a tort action, negligence and reasonable foreseeability.
A crime on the other hand. I just don't see any way to get to criminal negligence.

I think it's possible, but a stretch. Maybe somewhere around 50-50. You'd have to do more than just present the evidence that was presented at the trial. And there's no way you'd get more than that.
01-13-2015 12:13 AM
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HeartOfDixie Offline
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Post: #56
RE: Zimmerman: Menace to Society
(01-13-2015 12:13 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(01-13-2015 12:10 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  There is enough to support a tort action, negligence and reasonable foreseeability.
A crime on the other hand. I just don't see any way to get to criminal negligence.

I think it's possible, but a stretch. Maybe somewhere around 50-50. You'd have to do more than just present the evidence that was presented at the trial. And there's no way you'd get more than that.

I agree.

Speaking just for me, I just couldn't say he manifested a reckless indifference to human life.
01-13-2015 12:15 AM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #57
RE: Zimmerman: Menace to Society
(01-13-2015 12:15 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  Speaking just for me, I just couldn't say he manifested a reckless indifference to human life.

Not based on the evidence presented at trial. If the prosecution had been going for negligent homicide, I think they might have been able to structure their case differently to get it. But it would take some work to get them there. And I think that's absolutely as far as they could go.
(This post was last modified: 01-13-2015 12:23 AM by Owl 69/70/75.)
01-13-2015 12:22 AM
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HeartOfDixie Offline
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Post: #58
RE: Zimmerman: Menace to Society
What is it that was presented at trial that makes you think that?

Being entirely honest I'm not entirely sure what was ultimately presented.

We may also be talking slight jurisdictional differences, here you'd have to show the cause in fact was the criminally negligent action, which in my understanding of the facts is the following the kid into the area where the shooting occurred.
01-13-2015 12:27 AM
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Fitbud Offline
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Post: #59
RE: Zimmerman: Menace to Society
My understanding is that the Florida "stand your ground " law prevented police from addressing Zimmerman. I've always wondered however why the same law did not apply to Martin.
01-13-2015 12:27 AM
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HeartOfDixie Offline
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Post: #60
RE: Zimmerman: Menace to Society
Stand your ground laws just statutorily eliminate the common law requirement to retreat from danger before you can respond with deadly force.

They aren't as mysterious as the media made them out to be.
01-13-2015 12:32 AM
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