Maybe privatization is the answer.

Privatization will only give good education to the folks with the most money.

(01-05-2015 08:26 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  Privatization will only give good education to the folks with the most money.

That's different than now how?

(01-05-2015 08:26 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  Privatization will only give good education to the folks with the most money.

The type of privatization I would support would be more in line with what the Departments of Transportation, Interior,HUD,Energy...ect do in regard to contracting companies to run government based entities for profit. It would bring in competition, innovation and cost effectiveness to the existing paradigm. Companies would have a market incentive to reduce costs while producing results and rewarding teachers for excellence in order to keep them as employees.

It would of course demand that the government do less meddling in education and turn to a more result oriented paradigm using the market place. Im not sure that we could get either gang to relinquish control of education. They both seem to think THEY know what is best for our children. Of course...neither knows WTF they are talking about.

I am not an advocate of the type of privatization in which you refer.

(01-05-2015 08:26 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  Privatization will only give good education to the folks with the most money.

Isn't it better if at least some people get a good education? Or would you prefer if everyone gets a poor, but equal, education?

No, I would hope most would prefer that all have a chance at an excellent education. Crazy huh?

(01-06-2015 08:45 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  No, I would hope most would prefer that all have a chance at an excellent education. Crazy huh?

Living on hope. How sad.

address the barriers. Don't throw up your hands and quit amd certainly don't make the problems worse. Just the fact that you are willing to let some people get a good education and seem to be AOK letting the others rot speaks volumes. You are not an honest broker in these discussions with this statement:

Isn't it better if at least some people get a good education? Or would you prefer if everyone gets a poor, but equal, education?

Living on hope. How sad.

Setting up a caste system. How sad.

(01-06-2015 08:45 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  No, I would hope most would prefer that all have a chance at an excellent education. Crazy huh?

That's called a platitude.

The public K-12 education system is the biggest driver of inequality in our society today.

While I won't disagree that education in America has problems, I really don't think the "privatization" is necessarily the answer.

First ask yourself why the privates of today (in general) out perform their public counterparts. To me, there is one overriding factor and that is that their parents spend money to send their child to the private school. They have skin in the game and are not going to allow Junior to waste their money. As well (in general), kids going to private schools come from families that have more money (they pay to attend a private school) meaning the parents are likely smarter than average or, if not smarter, have at least figured out how to be successful in America.

Vouchers, where the government GIVES money to families to spend at the school they choose sounds great, but how is this different than section 8 housing - we know how well that works. Vouchers don't require "skin in the game". The schools may want the money, but that doesn't mean Junior won't be just as disruptive or that his parents will care any more - they aren't paying for it.

If you look back and attempt to figure out where we went off the rails on education, there are a couple of major changes that have occurred. One is that in the 50s and 60s, kids that didn't want to be there quit and went to work - ie., the non-performers and more troublesome kids self weeded themselves out of the mix. Two, the abolishment of corporal punishment suddenly made the punishment for misbehaving way easier because the alternative is now suspension, in many cases, just what the kid wants, because he doesn't want to be there anyway and it is now illegal for them to "self weed themselves out" of school.

While I understand the notion of uneducated kids eventually being a financial drain on the government when they become adults, forcing all kids into the current education model that we have in this country is a loser. Kids (and parents) who don't care and have decided not to learn muck up the whole system. Most public schools can overcome a small percentage of kids/parents that don't care, but there is a tipping point where too many rotten apples spoil the whole barrel so to speak.

The "one size fits all" model that our government forces on all schools just means that the education world spends lots of time, effort and money trying to fit square pegs into round holes. Right now, we as a country aren't showing great success at it.

(01-06-2015 09:40 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Living on hope. How sad.

Setting up a caste system. How sad.

Mach, there is a caste system today and you as an educator know this. Our caste system is that the dumb kids and kids of parents who don't give a sh!t don't learn much.

Until we jettison the "one size fits all" and everyone meets the same requirements thinking - American Education will continue to struggle.

Considering that no more than about 30% of students graduate from college, by far the largest schools in the country should be Vocational schools where kids are taught things that will benefit the jobs they will eventually hold. Running most all kids through a school that "prepares them for college" when most of them aren't going there is such a waste of time and money.

(01-06-2015 09:40 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Living on hope. How sad.

Setting up a caste system. How sad.

One already exists, I just want to give more people a chance to enter the educated caste.

(01-06-2015 11:17 AM)Crebman Wrote:  

(01-06-2015 09:40 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Living on hope. How sad.

Setting up a caste system. How sad.

Mach, there is a caste system today and you as an educator know this. Our caste system is that the dumb kids and kids of parents who don't give a sh!t don't learn much.

Until we jettison the "one size fits all" and everyone meets the same requirements thinking - American Education will continue to struggle.

Considering that no more than about 30% of students graduate from college, by far the largest schools in the country should be Vocational schools where kids are taught things that will benefit the jobs they will eventually hold. Running most all kids through a school that "prepares them for college" when most of them aren't going there is such a waste of time and money.

Exactly, the business i work for does a lot of work for the industrial sector of our economy. I was reading an article about how construction is starting to slow down because there aren't enough welders and pipe fitters. It was saying that pipe fitters were charging 100 bucks an hour because they are so stretched thin. Since companies cannot bring in foreign welders/pipe-fitters they are having to wait to do there capital projects because of costs and availability.

If you look back and attempt to figure out where we went off the rails on education, there are a couple of major changes that have occurred. One is that in the 50s and 60s, kids that didn't want to be there quit and went to work - ie., the non-performers and more troublesome kids self weeded themselves out of the mix. Two, the abolishment of corporal punishment suddenly made the punishment for misbehaving way easier because the alternative is now suspension, in many cases, just what the kid wants, because he doesn't want to be there anyway and it is now illegal for them to "self weed themselves out" of school.


^^^^^^ This x's ten. A couple of other huge changes. 1. the IEP kids and least restrictive environment. 2. Standardized testing. 3. REQUIRING ALL KIDS TAKE A SET NUMBER OF CREDITS! You used to teach to challenge the top end. The top 10-15%. The kids who fell below that earned C's and D's. If a kid failed he failed. Both sides knew the score. Kids self weeded themselves. Now the malcontents are FORCED to take the higher ended classes and as a teacher your performance is dictated on how these kids do. You have totally changed the dynamic. If schools want the scores in the paper. Your MOST important kids are the bottom 20-30%. This is where you get your bang for the buck. We expend an inordinate amount of energy keeping the malcontent pampered. These truly are the most important people in your school. If they do well. Your report card does well. People think you are doing a great job and you get pats on the back. In reality your top 20-30% are paying a significant price.

I wish public schools would make personal finance and rudimentary economics required education as I continue to be astounded at how little people (including adults) understand lending, saving and wise investing.

(01-05-2015 03:06 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  I agree for the most part with the article and most of what has already been said.
Mainly lack of support from admin. Government, and parents.

Teachers used to be regarded as heroes now it seems we are the enemy.

Same could be said for Law Enforcement

You know the area I thought a ton about. Virtual Reality learning pods. You stick a kid in a pod. A program that reads and scores how a kid is learning and adapting. I honestly can see in 30 years that this is the future of education. Right now these virtual learning academies are a joke. I'm a proctor and I get paid 220 bucks every time a kid completes 18 lessons. It's a multiple choice test sprinkled with essays. I was curious one day so I typed one of the questions in google. Every class that I proctor the answers are on the net. It's a copy and paste degree, but if the technology improves where the computer on the other end of the keyboard can gauge and actually teach each kid individually. That changes the paradigm. I've often contemplated this very scenario in my free time. If these computers can start to process and intuitively teach a learner. Game changer.

Tell me if I'm wrong, but I think a huge number of people who lean towards the GOP wouldn't mind spending on education if the money being spent actually improved things. I get the feeling that people feel it's just a gigantic money pit. I understand that sentiment. Then when you factor the individual being morphed into the one size fits all model. It's herding cats.

I think for the most part we could have better discussions if we could be honest with each other, but the inherent interests of third parties won't allow the dialogue.

Talking about unions have to come into this question too. I can't imagine dealing with the public without the oprotections the unions afford us. This is the first Rubicon for me in dealing with the right. People who teach on here in areas where there is not union protections. Do you have trouble with Nepotism or favoritism? I've seen it a couple of times in my career in coaching. Coaches are not afforded union protections. We had a softball coach who did a nice job, but he didn't play a board members kid. The kid who played in front of her was better but Dad didn't see it that way. Things got real sideways. One AD stuck up for the coach. That AD lost his job. New AD replaced the softball coach. Within three years the softball program was in shambles board members hand picked coach quit. I can see that playing out all over if we lost public unions. Board members daughter graduates with a degree in accounting. Accounting teacher who is at 25 years on the salary scale loses her job in the spring. New accounting teacher steps into her job the next fall. Rinse repeat. In public schools how do you avoid that scenario?