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California to Break Ground on Bullet-Train on Tuesday
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ODUgradstudent Offline
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Post: #81
RE: California to Break Ground on Bullet-Train on Tuesday
(05-23-2015 06:41 PM)49RFootballNow Wrote:  It's clear that any HSR that doesn't go at least 200mph and offer a price point at least half as expensive as the plane ride is pretty much doomed to failure. Americans are willing to spend money for convenience and time. If you can't get HSR to fit in that middle ground between those three factors it won't work here. Maglevs in Germany and Japan are starting to break the 250mph barrier, I'd rather we wait for that to pan out before making these billion dollar taxpayer investments in obsolete technologies.

Why would trains have to cost half as much as planes if the journey time is the same? Because of check in times and the fact that train stations are generally far closer to city centers than airports, a train should be faster (or the same) than a plane for journeys under 500 miles.

Plus in my opinion trains are far more comfortable (especially in economy), you can get way better food and there's less stress because you're not standing around waiting for as many checks, it's way less stressful.
05-24-2015 03:11 PM
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49RFootballNow Offline
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Post: #82
RE: California to Break Ground on Bullet-Train on Tuesday
(05-24-2015 03:11 PM)ODUgradstudent Wrote:  
(05-23-2015 06:41 PM)49RFootballNow Wrote:  It's clear that any HSR that doesn't go at least 200mph and offer a price point at least half as expensive as the plane ride is pretty much doomed to failure. Americans are willing to spend money for convenience and time. If you can't get HSR to fit in that middle ground between those three factors it won't work here. Maglevs in Germany and Japan are starting to break the 250mph barrier, I'd rather we wait for that to pan out before making these billion dollar taxpayer investments in obsolete technologies.

Why would trains have to cost half as much as planes if the journey time is the same? Because of check in times and the fact that train stations are generally far closer to city centers than airports, a train should be faster (or the same) than a plane for journeys under 500 miles.

Plus in my opinion trains are far more comfortable (especially in economy), you can get way better food and there's less stress because you're not standing around waiting for as many checks, it's way less stressful.

Then explain why train travel, which once dominated long distance travel in this nation, has non-government subsidized disappeared? If train companies won't run passenger trains then there's no significant public demand for it. To create that demand you must position it as a better alternative to flying on price, comfort and time. Planes will always be faster than trains so you get the trains as comfy and fast as possible and you hope the price is low enough to overcome the convenience of air travel and the personal-control factor of driving there your-self.
(This post was last modified: 05-24-2015 03:56 PM by 49RFootballNow.)
05-24-2015 03:55 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #83
RE: California to Break Ground on Bullet-Train on Tuesday
With a 200 mph speed made good over ground, NYC and CHI are 4 hours apart. That will, of course, require separating freight and passenger tracks. A train to the standard of Eurostar or Shinkansen can compete with air up to that limit for anyone going downtown to downtown. When you add commute time to and from airports, plus the need to get there way early because of the security hassle, not to mention the prospect of delays, you're at least competitive on time. For business travelers, the ability to remain in constant communication with the office via cell and internet is a significant plus. Get the price of that quality down to a competitive level and you have something.

Unfortunately, the people calling the shots at Amtrak have no clue about giving the public a competitive product.
05-24-2015 04:26 PM
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ODUgradstudent Offline
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Post: #84
RE: California to Break Ground on Bullet-Train on Tuesday
(05-24-2015 04:26 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  With a 200 mph speed made good over ground, NYC and CHI are 4 hours apart. That will, of course, require separating freight and passenger tracks. A train to the standard of Eurostar or Shinkansen can compete with air up to that limit for anyone going downtown to downtown. When you add commute time to and from airports, plus the need to get there way early because of the security hassle, not to mention the prospect of delays, you're at least competitive on time. For business travelers, the ability to remain in constant communication with the office via cell and internet is a significant plus. Get the price of that quality down to a competitive level and you have something.

Unfortunately, the people calling the shots at Amtrak have no clue about giving the public a competitive product.

Exactly, the flight from NYC-CHI is about 2h15-2h30. If you add on a taxi ride at each end between O'Hare and the Loop and any of the NYC airports and Manhattan that's another 30-45 mins at each side. You're already at about 4 hours there and that's without any major traffic going into the cities or even security at the airport. On the other hand Union Station is a 5 minute walk from Chicago's CBD and Penn Station is a 10 minute Subway or cab ride from Downtown NYC or a 5 minute cab to anywhere in midtown. If really pushed you can walk. You can't walk from Newark to Manhattan.
05-24-2015 05:36 PM
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vandiver49 Offline
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Post: #85
RE: California to Break Ground on Bullet-Train on Tuesday
(05-24-2015 01:30 PM)49RFootballNow Wrote:  
(05-24-2015 06:54 AM)VA49er Wrote:  
(05-23-2015 06:41 PM)49RFootballNow Wrote:  It's clear that any HSR that doesn't go at least 200mph and offer a price point at least half as expensive as the plane ride is pretty much doomed to failure. Americans are willing to spend money for convenience and time. If you can't get HSR to fit in that middle ground between those three factors it won't work here. Maglevs in Germany and Japan are starting to break the 250mph barrier, I'd rather we wait for that to pan out before making these billion dollar taxpayer investments in obsolete technologies.

I wonder if simply geography will prevent HSR here in the States. I'm not talking mountains and lakes, etc. The US is a big place.

I can get a ticket for a 1 stop flight round trip from Charlotte to San Francisco that leaves next Friday afternoon and returns Monday morning for $693 (not including checked bags or anything else). That was on my very first search result. If I tried harder I could get it down to near $600 maybe. It's a 7.5 hr trip to SF and a 6.9 hr trip back with 30 minutes windows to change planes each way.

Coach seat on an AmTrak train to do the same is $606. For a little more than $300 more I can get a bed room on a sleeper car. I'd have to take The Cresent to DC (8hr trip). Wait 6hr in DC till for The Capitol Limited to take me 18 hrs to Chicago, where I'd wait 5 hrs to board The California Zephyr for a 2 DAY trip (had I taken the plane I'd be flying back home during this part) to the west coast. Now here's the kicker, the closest the train gets to SanFran is Emeryville, CA. I then have to hop a bus for an hour ride into the city.

I didn't want to embarrass AmTrak too much by looking up Greyhound for this trip.

The point of all that is the only people AmTrak can possibly appeal to currently are people with unlimited time on their hands and a near panic-mode fear of flying. That's not a good business model.

A Cross-America HSR has to be at least 300+ mph, doesn't stop at every station, and sub $300 for the entire trip. It has to have multiple trains doing the same line everyday to hit every station since there's no point in a 300mph train that has to stop every 20 minutes at the next city. Since the fastest "conventional rail" HST's are maxing out at 236mph, it stands to reason that a Cross-America HST would have to be MagLev; which ironically could be easier to do from a right-of-way standpoint since you would HAVE to have a whole new line.

The DC to Boston Acela line is a failure because of the conventional/non-dedicated tracks used and the pathetic speed that resulted. Had they dedicated themselves to making a "REAL" HSR people could be shuttling back and forth up the entire east coast by now in less than 12 hours.

Bottom line is if you're going to do HSR in the US you can't half-ass it like Acela. To answer your question about a Cross-America HSR being viable because of the size of the country: I'd say the size is more of a burden than a blessing for HSR. Like I showed above, you simply can't beat the convenience of air travel over distances of 500 miles. Even an east coast Boston to Miami HSR that could get you there in under 12 hrs would still lose out to getting on a plane at Logan and landing at Miami International in 4 hrs. That's a whole day on the beach missed!

HSR needs to focus on the under 500 mile market between major metro areas. As the current economic factors stands it will never take the 500+ mile business from the airlines.

I just don't think that HSR can compete outside of a few dense markets like the NE Corridor, the West Coast and maybe the Great Lakes. Due to the ROW acquisition costs and the fact that local politicians will clamors for stops in their districts, the effectiveness will eventually be whittled away.

The system I would like to design would be based on similar to the ROAM elevated guideway. It's top speed would be about 150-170 mph and could handle cars, freight and busses and would be modeled like the NJ Turnpike with regard to exit frequency and service stations. One could drive their car up, put it on a maglev sled, select a destination and enjoy the ride. It's the only type of system that could see actually criss-crossing the entire nation.
05-28-2015 01:58 PM
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Niner National Offline
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Post: #86
RE: California to Break Ground on Bullet-Train on Tuesday
(05-23-2015 06:41 PM)49RFootballNow Wrote:  It's clear that any HSR that doesn't go at least 200mph and offer a price point at least half as expensive as the plane ride is pretty much doomed to failure. Americans are willing to spend money for convenience and time. If you can't get HSR to fit in that middle ground between those three factors it won't work here. Maglevs in Germany and Japan are starting to break the 250mph barrier, I'd rather we wait for that to pan out before making these billion dollar taxpayer investments in obsolete technologies.

Germany doesn't have maglevs and I'm fact has one of the slowest train systems in europe. Many of the trains there travel 75mph or less. I did ride one high speed train while there that went about 180 though.

France and Spain are the rail leaders in europe, but they use rail, not maglev. You can go 250+ on rail. Maglev tech is not super practical honestly.
(This post was last modified: 05-30-2015 06:54 PM by Niner National.)
05-30-2015 06:53 PM
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