XLance
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RE: Hartford Courant: "There will be another round of movement [expansion]"
(01-07-2015 06:48 PM)omniorange Wrote: (01-06-2015 09:50 PM)XLance Wrote: (01-04-2015 03:25 PM)omniorange Wrote: (01-04-2015 10:49 AM)NJ2MDTerp Wrote: (01-04-2015 02:04 AM)omniorange Wrote: Again, think of this as initially attempting to change the identity of the conference by expanding out from the South Atlantic sub-region to become the East Coast Conference.
The following is from a 2000 ESPN/TNS sports poll right after the 1999 season that I found on the FSU site back in 2003. Don't think it's still out there, but this is what it has for favorite football team from the various sub-regions. ESPN/TNS polls with regional favorites were quite common on the internet until about 2007 or so. But to actually see the sub-region one was rare:
South Atlantic
1. Florida State 12.6
2. Florida 8.7
3. North Carolina 6.2
4. Georgia 5.4
5. Virginia Tech 5.1
6. West Virginia 4.1
7. Notre Dame 3.7
8. Miami 3.5
9. Penn State 3.1
10. Clemson 2.6
South Atlantic sub-region consists of Maryland, Delaware, West Virginia, DC, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, and Florida
Mid-Atlantic
1. Penn State 29.0
2. Notre Dame 13.1
3. Syracuse 6.0
4. Pittsburgh 4.1
5. Florida State 3.9
6. Michigan 3.4
7. Florida 1.6
8. Ohio State 1.4
9. Miami 1.3
10. Nebraska 1.3
Mid-Atlantic sub-region consists of New York, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania
New England
1. Notre Dame 15.9
2. Boston College 12.6
3. Penn State 6.7
4. Florida State 3.8
5. Michigan 3.0
6. Maine 2.8
7. Florida 1.8
8. Nebraska 1.6
9. Yale 1.6
10. Ohio State 1.5
New England sub-region consists of the obvious states.
Granted, the last one I saw but wasn't allowed to make a copy of was back in 2007 when the Big Ten first made noises about expansion. It had differences in terms of percentages from the above one, but they were still pretty much the same at the top. Rutgers had cracked the Top 10 for mid-atlantic and I'm sure they have risen even further over the past six years or so. FSU was no longer in the Top 10 of that sub-region and Miami was barely holding on.
UConn was ahead of Yale and Nebraska in the New England sub-region but Ohio State and Florida jumped up to 4 and 5 (or 5 and 6, the memory is failing me) while Florida State was down toward the bottom.
I think the above makes it obvious what the conference of the East Coast needed to be about, but could the ACC pull it off without getting one of ND or PSU? If they got both they were in great shape, but there was no reason for either to jump back in 2003. And later when 1) Miami and FSU went down by their standards, 2) ND kicked to the curb the admins that almost brought them to the verge of joining a conference, and 3) the Big Ten implemented a successful BTN and then expanded with Maryland and Rutgers the dream of ever enticing ND or PSU to the ACC became less and less likely.
All of the recent moves by the ACC harken back to that vision of 2003 but in reality they have now only been reactive ones instead of truly implementing a paradigm shift for the conference.
It will be interesting to see what develops over the next 5-7 years. Will the ACC finally succeed in football? Can mediocre SU and Pitt join with BC to regain some of their lost support in football in the northeast?
Not to mention competition from the B1G in the northeast.
As I have said many times, I wish the ACC had simply bit the bullet back in 2011 and invited Pitt, WVU, SU, and Louisville. And then, when Maryland jumped replace them with UConn. ND is fool's gold. And Texas moreso.
Time will tell.
Cheers,
Neil
Given the smaller enrollments at the majority of ACC schools, state flagship schools should've been given priority. So I think both Rutgers and WVU should've preceded Cuse and Pitt to the ACC, giving the ACC a total of 16 schools.
A poster by the handle of Woad Blue who is a UNC fan advocated Pitt and WVU or Rutgers and WVU as well back around 2010 or so prior to ACC expansion. With the exception of PSU (which so dominates the landscape) I think the state flagships paradigm is pretty much meaningless in the Northeast overall myself. My take was take the institutions with the best combinations of football and basketball (since the ACC needed help in both). Besides, by 2010 I was convinced Rutgers would wind up in the Big Ten anyway.
Cheers,
Neil
Neil,
I would like to have access to your files.
WoadBlue did indeed advocate in 2010 that the ACC take West Virginia and Rutgers which would be the largest BE football fan base and the 2nd largest football fan base, or a combo of West Virginia and Pitt which would give the ACC the largest BE football fan base and the most football history of any school in the BE.
He also suggested that the best move for basketball would be for the ACC to take Syracuse and Pitt (because Pitt as a basketball program was overtaking UConn).
Which files? I have lots of them and most of them are not even sports related.
At the point in time that Woad was advocating Rutgers and WVU on that basis (being large state schools), WVU and Pitt were the two highest in terms of average attendance the years of 2008, 2009, and 2010.
So the ACC would have gotten the best rivalry game from the Big East (and in my mind that would have immediately become the 2nd best ACC conference rivalry game - after FSU and Miami), the two football programs with the best history (taking into account both present and future, although SU has history as well, they just had been in a funk except for one Freeney led year since the McNabb years), and the two largest football fan bases left in the BE at that time.
When I would debate with Woad and say that the ACC would take SU and Pitt, he had no use for SU at all. I tried to explain that even if academics were taken off the table, the ACC would still take SU and Pitt (and why) he didn't think SU was necessary for particular goal. Which was fine. Ultimately I was proven right on that but it actually wasn't one of more my bolder predictions.
Anyway, in terms of football followings, except for a bad coach situation like Louisville had for a couple of those years, my feeling was that one could flip a coin between Louisville, Rutgers, and Pitt for the 2nd best football attendance in the Big East. But long term, my money was always on Louisville getting to WVU's level in that area and possibly even exceeding them.
They seemed to me at the time (and still do), the closest to becoming the Big East's (and now ACC's) next VT.
Time will tell.
While I don't recall this being Woad's stance but if he or anyone thought Pitt's basketball program was on the verge of overtaking UConn's, then i just have to shake my head at that. Maybe he thought it could happen if Pitt got into the ACC and UConn was left out?
Cheers,
Neil
WoadBlue was always truly football focused and really wanted the "backyard brawl" to be a part of the ACC not so much because of Pitt and West Virginia, but, because it was a "classic" rivalry. Maybe all football fans will be able to enjoy it again in the future.
Woad's comment on your remark about just taking West Virginia and UConn and be done with it....Can UConn football ever grow enough to truly help the ACC? Unlikely.
BTW Neil, Woad thought the key to taking as much of NYC as possible would have been with the combination of Syracuse and Rutgers.
(This post was last modified: 01-07-2015 09:36 PM by XLance.)
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