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Could Army be the solution?
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RougeDawg Offline
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Post: #41
RE: Could Army be the solution?
(12-28-2014 10:34 PM)geauxcajuns Wrote:  
(12-28-2014 10:29 PM)RougeDawg Wrote:  Top hits from the last time y'all beat us:





Also, we actually build the facilities that we propose. You will have a chance to see that when you come up for your next ass whipping.

That's why it was reduced by nearly $7 million from the original proposal. Give me a break. Just like y'all deliver the Shreveport market. The NYT fan map seems to dispute that claim.

Again, as an athletic program we are on the verge of blowing the doors off of La Tech while still in the Sun Belt.

Maybe actually winning the Sunbelt can be your first goal?
12-28-2014 10:57 PM
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geauxcajuns Offline
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Post: #42
RE: Could Army be the solution?
(12-28-2014 10:57 PM)RougeDawg Wrote:  
(12-28-2014 10:34 PM)geauxcajuns Wrote:  
(12-28-2014 10:29 PM)RougeDawg Wrote:  Top hits from the last time y'all beat us:





Also, we actually build the facilities that we propose. You will have a chance to see that when you come up for your next ass whipping.

That's why it was reduced by nearly $7 million from the original proposal. Give me a break. Just like y'all deliver the Shreveport market. The NYT fan map seems to dispute that claim.

Again, as an athletic program we are on the verge of blowing the doors off of La Tech while still in the Sun Belt.

Maybe actually winning the Sunbelt can be your first goal?

4 straight bowl wins, #1 national ranking in baseball, NCAA Tourny in basketball, CWS in softball. Let me know when you have a year like that.
12-28-2014 11:12 PM
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geauxcajuns Offline
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Post: #43
RE: Could Army be the solution?
(12-28-2014 10:57 PM)RougeDawg Wrote:  
(12-28-2014 10:34 PM)geauxcajuns Wrote:  
(12-28-2014 10:29 PM)RougeDawg Wrote:  Top hits from the last time y'all beat us:





Also, we actually build the facilities that we propose. You will have a chance to see that when you come up for your next ass whipping.

That's why it was reduced by nearly $7 million from the original proposal. Give me a break. Just like y'all deliver the Shreveport market. The NYT fan map seems to dispute that claim.

Again, as an athletic program we are on the verge of blowing the doors off of La Tech while still in the Sun Belt.

Maybe actually winning the Sunbelt can be your first goal?

You can relax, I've heard that we have no shot at getting in to CUSA. Other things are brewing and we are going to gamble on some recent info, but all signs are very positive for Louisiana.
12-28-2014 11:23 PM
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SApuro Offline
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Post: #44
RE: Could Army be the solution?
Louisiana has made some positives strides the last few years. Tech fans can beat their chest all day long that they are higher up in the food chain but the reality is they are on equal footing.

A Louisiana invite to CUSA wouldn't be the end of the world nor move the excitement needle.

Army on the other hand would be a homerun. Can't get enough of the triple option....said no one ever.
(This post was last modified: 12-28-2014 11:59 PM by SApuro.)
12-28-2014 11:58 PM
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LastMinuteman Offline
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Post: #45
RE: Could Army be the solution?
(12-28-2014 02:35 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  
Quote: In theory UMass could replace UAB in C-USA West, and it would only affect a scheduled non-conference game with FIU, which could be left untouched as long UMass and FIU don't play each other in a conference game. The MAC would then be able to go back to a proper divisional schedule with 12 teams.
AFAICT, there's still an exit fee for leaving earlier, but the savings in not being Independent would likely cover that for UMass.

The exit fee is only $250k at this point. The bigger problem would be rescheduling approximately 12 games too many from 2016 to 2018, but it should be do-able if given enough lead time. 4 of them are against CUSA teams and another is a FCS cheapo, so it's really only 3 games in 2016 and 4 games in 2017 that would need to be moved around.

CUSA would be silly to consider any all-sports additions prior to the Big 12 making their move. The right call for them is either to hang at 13 for a bit, or do the UAB/UMass combo if they want to even out the schedule. The big difference between the UAB/UMass combo and every other option is that UMass and UAB would accept terminable affiliations with CUSA for lack of any other better options, and then if in the future CUSA finds itself with an odd number again, it'd have the ability to simply terminate the deals to get down to 12. No Sun Belt team would accept that deal because they'd be burning bridges with their only safe landing spot if CUSA terminated them, plus they'd need to find a home for their other sports. UAB and UMass have no bridges to burn. Army for its part has a much larger backlog of games to move scheduled way out to 2021, and wouldn't accept those terms anyway. They'd be in the AAC if they wanted to be in a conference, or they'd never have left CUSA in the first place.
12-29-2014 06:36 AM
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IceJus10 Online
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Post: #46
RE: Could Army be the solution?
I see all kinds of chatter about Army, but few on this board seem to understand why Army has struggled the last decade and a half... it's simple really, WAR! Finding patriotic and service ready high school football players isn't hard, finding ones that want to play football and then run around the sands of Middle East for a few years is a whole other story.

What's the safer recruiting pitch? Riding in a jeep in the desert or sailing in a huge ship on the 7 seas?

As the wars in the Middle East hopefully subside and the sting of active duty is shrugged off, I'm sure you'll see Army's recruiting and level of play improve. If we enter other conflicts then obviously the rough patch will probably continue.

That said, if Army were going to join a conference, my bet would be the American. Navy is there now that their 2014 season is over, and it would be in their best interest comparing existing television revenue and scheduling of the Army-Navy game.
12-29-2014 08:08 AM
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BruceMcF Offline
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Post: #47
RE: Could Army be the solution?
(12-29-2014 08:08 AM)IceJus10 Wrote:  I see all kinds of chatter about Army, but few on this board seem to understand why Army has struggled the last decade and a half... it's simple really, WAR! Finding patriotic and service ready high school football players isn't hard, finding ones that want to play football and then run around the sands of Middle East for a few years is a whole other story.
That's a definite factor in recruitment, but even without that, Army's standing as among the very lightest O-lines and D-lines in the FBS will remain.

(12-29-2014 08:08 AM)IceJus10 Wrote:  That said, if Army were going to join a conference, my bet would be the American. Navy is there now that their 2014 season is over, and it would be in their best interest comparing existing television revenue and scheduling of the Army-Navy game.
Its actually better for scheduling of Army-Navy for the two schools to be in different conferences, so that the result of Army-Navy does not affect the conference championship race, and Army-Navy can continue to be played in the weekend after the CCG's.
(This post was last modified: 12-29-2014 08:44 AM by BruceMcF.)
12-29-2014 08:42 AM
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connecticutguy Offline
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Post: #48
RE: Could Army be the solution?
Army to the American. Will join Navy.
12-30-2014 01:08 PM
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49RFootballNow Offline
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Post: #49
RE: Could Army be the solution?
(12-30-2014 01:08 PM)connecticutguy Wrote:  Army to the American. Will join Navy.

Army has already played in that conference before, when it was called C-USA 1.0. They left because the competition was too much. They, like all the service academies, have size and weight restrictions that hurt them as the season goes on. The only reason Air Force is in the MWC is because FBS schools are thin out west and its hard to get home games on that half of the continent. Navy might leave after a decade in the AAC unless they continue to win. Neither Navy nor Army have had a very hard time scheduling as Independents.
12-30-2014 01:49 PM
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Kruciff Offline
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Post: #50
RE: Could Army be the solution?
Personally, I think it would be a wise decision by the service academies to lift the requirements of playing for the academies altogether, including serving in their respective Armed Forces.

As it stands, no military academy will ever see a championship in anything with these limitations, but could you imagine the recognition it would bring to, say, Army if they won the FBS National Championship? I could see the streets of America lined with Flags, and every red blooded American watching that game, and people rushing to the offices to enlist (Look up the Flutie effect, and extrapolate to service academies).

I really think the academies stand to gain a significant amount if their sports programs were competing at the highest level and winning.
12-30-2014 02:09 PM
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Post: #51
RE: Could Army be the solution?
(12-29-2014 08:08 AM)IceJus10 Wrote:  I see all kinds of chatter about Army, but few on this board seem to understand why Army has struggled the last decade and a half... it's simple really, WAR! Finding patriotic and service ready high school football players isn't hard, finding ones that want to play football and then run around the sands of Middle East for a few years is a whole other story.

What's the safer recruiting pitch? Riding in a jeep in the desert or sailing in a huge ship on the 7 seas?

As the wars in the Middle East hopefully subside and the sting of active duty is shrugged off, I'm sure you'll see Army's recruiting and level of play improve. If we enter other conflicts then obviously the rough patch will probably continue.

That said, if Army were going to join a conference, my bet would be the American. Navy is there now that their 2014 season is over, and it would be in their best interest comparing existing television revenue and scheduling of the Army-Navy game.

Here is what I don't get about Army.

If you look at where the U.S. Army gets enlistments, a disproportion share come from the south. Yet the academy plays very few games in the south. Why not put more effort into recruiting the south where there is a more natural bent to enlistment?
12-30-2014 02:17 PM
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49RFootballNow Offline
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Post: #52
RE: Could Army be the solution?
(12-30-2014 02:09 PM)Kruciff Wrote:  Personally, I think it would be a wise decision by the service academies to lift the requirements of playing for the academies altogether, including serving in their respective Armed Forces.

As it stands, no military academy will ever see a championship in anything with these limitations, but could you imagine the recognition it would bring to, say, Army if they won the FBS National Championship? I could see the streets of America lined with Flags, and every red blooded American watching that game, and people rushing to the offices to enlist (Look up the Flutie effect, and extrapolate to service academies).

I really think the academies stand to gain a significant amount if their sports programs were competing at the highest level and winning.

So the American taxpayers will pay for a football player to get a top level education so they can just walk away from their military obligation (or be disqualified for not conforming to military standards)?

No, the service academies don't need to win national championships anymore than Harvard or Yale do. They haven't lost sight of the fact that college athletics is for the benefit of the students, not the alumni and boosters.
12-30-2014 02:20 PM
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Kruciff Offline
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Post: #53
RE: Could Army be the solution?
(12-30-2014 02:20 PM)49RFootballNow Wrote:  
(12-30-2014 02:09 PM)Kruciff Wrote:  Personally, I think it would be a wise decision by the service academies to lift the requirements of playing for the academies altogether, including serving in their respective Armed Forces.

As it stands, no military academy will ever see a championship in anything with these limitations, but could you imagine the recognition it would bring to, say, Army if they won the FBS National Championship? I could see the streets of America lined with Flags, and every red blooded American watching that game, and people rushing to the offices to enlist (Look up the Flutie effect, and extrapolate to service academies).

I really think the academies stand to gain a significant amount if their sports programs were competing at the highest level and winning.

So the American taxpayers will pay for a football player to get a top level education so they can just walk away from their military obligation (or be disqualified for not conforming to military standards)?

No, the service academies don't need to win national championships anymore than Harvard or Yale do. They haven't lost sight of the fact that college athletics is for the benefit of the students, not the alumni and boosters.

Athletics is a marketing tool to the University. The costs associated with paying for these players to get a top level education would be minimal compared to the gain. Even more so when you consider the cost to fully fund the Athletic Department compared to, say, the Defense Budget, for example.
12-30-2014 02:36 PM
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geauxcajuns Offline
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Post: #54
RE: Could Army be the solution?
(12-30-2014 02:09 PM)Kruciff Wrote:  Personally, I think it would be a wise decision by the service academies to lift the requirements of playing for the academies altogether, including serving in their respective Armed Forces.

As it stands, no military academy will ever see a championship in anything with these limitations, but could you imagine the recognition it would bring to, say, Army if they won the FBS National Championship? I could see the streets of America lined with Flags, and every red blooded American watching that game, and people rushing to the offices to enlist (Look up the Flutie effect, and extrapolate to service academies).

I really think the academies stand to gain a significant amount if their sports programs were competing at the highest level and winning.

If any of the Academy's would lift the commitment requirements IMO the presidents trophy would be for the national Title. They would also keep some of the kids they sign because there is a certain draw and appeal to that lifestyle once you have been exposed to it.

Not to mention that the Academy's are top notch schools.
12-30-2014 02:58 PM
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geauxcajuns Offline
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Post: #55
RE: Could Army be the solution?
(12-30-2014 02:20 PM)49RFootballNow Wrote:  
(12-30-2014 02:09 PM)Kruciff Wrote:  Personally, I think it would be a wise decision by the service academies to lift the requirements of playing for the academies altogether, including serving in their respective Armed Forces.

As it stands, no military academy will ever see a championship in anything with these limitations, but could you imagine the recognition it would bring to, say, Army if they won the FBS National Championship? I could see the streets of America lined with Flags, and every red blooded American watching that game, and people rushing to the offices to enlist (Look up the Flutie effect, and extrapolate to service academies).

I really think the academies stand to gain a significant amount if their sports programs were competing at the highest level and winning.

So the American taxpayers will pay for a football player to get a top level education so they can just walk away from their military obligation (or be disqualified for not conforming to military standards)?

No, the service academies don't need to win national championships anymore than Harvard or Yale do. They haven't lost sight of the fact that college athletics is for the benefit of the students, not the alumni and boosters.

The tax payers pay for students to sky dive, compete in judo, archery and all sorts of activities.

Look, the bottom line is that the Service Academies could use the athletic programs as a tool to recruit the very best athletes they can possibly get. They would also retain several athletes as officers when their career is complete.
12-30-2014 03:02 PM
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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RE: Could Army be the solution?
(12-28-2014 10:11 PM)BruceMcF Wrote:  
(12-28-2014 10:36 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  I'm of the opinion that the doors are always open to Army, Navy, and AFA to virtually any FBS conference. It's that they just don't march to same cadence as everyone else.
The Academy "national following" is awfully easy to over-state, since the majority of officers that did not go to the Academies are much less likely to pay a lot of attention to any games other than the inter-service games. Its not nothing ... which is why a service academy will have a warm welcome in a Go5 conference, but would struggle to bring enough value to justify an add to any of the P5 conferences.

It wasn't a mere coincidence that the AQ conference that made an invite to the most successful of the service academies was the one that lost its AQ status and dropped down into the Go5. And Army is further from being P5 material than Navy was.

Quote: Army's got a bit of an elitist sitting as their AD. Were it up to him, he'd figure out a way to move Army fully into Patsy or move them into the Ivy League.

I doubt they're competitive again until he's gone. He has no grasp on the program and the landscape, convenient for an institution as unique as they are, even if the recruiting footprints are a home run.
There's also the Commandant to consider ... but the basic impediments of the post-academy service requirement interfering with recruitment of HS athletes with visions (whether or not realistic) of going to the NFL and physical conditioning requirements interfering with having a P5 sized O-line and D-line are not going to go away, no matter who is AD.

Except that Army and Navy were usually at the table of every attempt to start a northeastern football conference up until the Big East, and even then, were still offered spots throughout its formative years, pre and post-ACC-raids.

And Air Force was on the short list with the likes of Pitt and Arkansas to replace some of what was lost in the Big XII. Before TCU. Before WVU and UL.

Overstated? I don't think so. You might, and to some extent, I can't say I fully disagree with the logic, but that doesn't stop other conferences from approaching them, even if they know the answer. The SA's work well with others. They travel well. They don't compete for the same kind of kids as others do. They don't just bring tradition and legacy...they practically ooze it. For some reason, the snobs who sit at the top of most schools want to work with that, even if the meatheads in the offices overlooking the gyms don't.
12-30-2014 04:53 PM
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Post: #57
RE: Could Army be the solution?
(12-30-2014 02:17 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  
(12-29-2014 08:08 AM)IceJus10 Wrote:  I see all kinds of chatter about Army, but few on this board seem to understand why Army has struggled the last decade and a half... it's simple really, WAR! Finding patriotic and service ready high school football players isn't hard, finding ones that want to play football and then run around the sands of Middle East for a few years is a whole other story.

What's the safer recruiting pitch? Riding in a jeep in the desert or sailing in a huge ship on the 7 seas?

As the wars in the Middle East hopefully subside and the sting of active duty is shrugged off, I'm sure you'll see Army's recruiting and level of play improve. If we enter other conflicts then obviously the rough patch will probably continue.

That said, if Army were going to join a conference, my bet would be the American. Navy is there now that their 2014 season is over, and it would be in their best interest comparing existing television revenue and scheduling of the Army-Navy game.

Here is what I don't get about Army.

If you look at where the U.S. Army gets enlistments, a disproportion share come from the south. Yet the academy plays very few games in the south. Why not put more effort into recruiting the south where there is a more natural bent to enlistment?

Perhaps since they get so many from down south that they feel they need to concentrate their efforts where they don't get enlistments.
12-30-2014 07:41 PM
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Post: #58
RE: Could Army be the solution?
(12-30-2014 02:17 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  
(12-29-2014 08:08 AM)IceJus10 Wrote:  I see all kinds of chatter about Army, but few on this board seem to understand why Army has struggled the last decade and a half... it's simple really, WAR! Finding patriotic and service ready high school football players isn't hard, finding ones that want to play football and then run around the sands of Middle East for a few years is a whole other story.

What's the safer recruiting pitch? Riding in a jeep in the desert or sailing in a huge ship on the 7 seas?

As the wars in the Middle East hopefully subside and the sting of active duty is shrugged off, I'm sure you'll see Army's recruiting and level of play improve. If we enter other conflicts then obviously the rough patch will probably continue.

That said, if Army were going to join a conference, my bet would be the American. Navy is there now that their 2014 season is over, and it would be in their best interest comparing existing television revenue and scheduling of the Army-Navy game.

Here is what I don't get about Army.

If you look at where the U.S. Army gets enlistments, a disproportion share come from the south. Yet the academy plays very few games in the south. Why not put more effort into recruiting the south where there is a more natural bent to enlistment?

Because the USMA is about training officers while enlistments are the common foot-soldier. The two things are wildly different.
12-30-2014 07:45 PM
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Could Army be the solution?
(12-30-2014 07:45 PM)BearcatJerry Wrote:  
(12-30-2014 02:17 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  
(12-29-2014 08:08 AM)IceJus10 Wrote:  I see all kinds of chatter about Army, but few on this board seem to understand why Army has struggled the last decade and a half... it's simple really, WAR! Finding patriotic and service ready high school football players isn't hard, finding ones that want to play football and then run around the sands of Middle East for a few years is a whole other story.

What's the safer recruiting pitch? Riding in a jeep in the desert or sailing in a huge ship on the 7 seas?

As the wars in the Middle East hopefully subside and the sting of active duty is shrugged off, I'm sure you'll see Army's recruiting and level of play improve. If we enter other conflicts then obviously the rough patch will probably continue.

That said, if Army were going to join a conference, my bet would be the American. Navy is there now that their 2014 season is over, and it would be in their best interest comparing existing television revenue and scheduling of the Army-Navy game.

Here is what I don't get about Army.

If you look at where the U.S. Army gets enlistments, a disproportion share come from the south. Yet the academy plays very few games in the south. Why not put more effort into recruiting the south where there is a more natural bent to enlistment?

Because the USMA is about training officers while enlistments are the common foot-soldier. The two things are wildly different.

Navy and AFA recruit the south. Guess the southern boys are smart enough to get in their academies.
12-30-2014 07:59 PM
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BruceMcF Offline
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RE: Could Army be the solution?
(12-30-2014 02:17 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  If you look at where the U.S. Army gets enlistments, a disproportion share come from the south. Yet the academy plays very few games in the south. Why not put more effort into recruiting the south where there is a more natural bent to enlistment?
Is that actually right?

Taking out Navy and Army as a "quasi conference", Army's 2015 schedule is tilted to the Northeast, with half of its ten "quasi OOC" games:
Fordham, @Uconn, @PennState, Bucknell, @Rutgers

... but other than their home region, they play more Southern schools than anywhere else:
Southeast: 2, Wake Force, Duke
South Central: 2, Tulane, @Rice
Great Lakes: 1, @EMU
Plains: 0
Mountain West: 0 other than Air Force
West Coast: 0

... 80% of their out of region, "quasi OOC" games.

(12-30-2014 04:53 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  
(12-28-2014 10:11 PM)BruceMcF Wrote:  The Academy "national following" is awfully easy to over-state, since the majority of officers that did not go to the Academies are much less likely to pay a lot of attention to any games other than the inter-service games. Its not nothing ... which is why a service academy will have a warm welcome in a Go5 conference, but would struggle to bring enough value to justify an add to any of the P5 conferences.

It wasn't a mere coincidence that the AQ conference that made an invite to the most successful of the service academies was the one that lost its AQ status and dropped down into the Go5. And Army is further from being P5 material than Navy was.

Except that Army and Navy were usually at the table of every attempt to start a northeastern football conference up until the Big East, and even then, were still offered spots throughout its formative years, pre and post-ACC-raids.
But that at least is as much about histories of the old Eastern Independent schools playing each as the "national following" point that people pull out whenever they want to play a service academy card in a game of fantasy Conference Realignment.

Quote: And Air Force was on the short list with the likes of Pitt and Arkansas to replace some of what was lost in the Big XII. Before TCU. Before WVU and UL.
And yet, despite being on the short list, when the Big12 was desperate to make some adds when it looked like the Big12 was going to implode ... it wasn't AF that made the move. A conference looking at realignment has to start out with schools on its list that it will, in the end, not have the votes to invite, because members will want to know that they have looked carefully at all plausible candidates.

Quote: Overstated? I don't think so. You might, and to some extent, I can't say I fully disagree with the logic, but that doesn't stop other conferences from approaching them, even if they know the answer.

They obviously have an open door at the American ... but in the P5? Certainly not in the Pac12, the BigTen or the SEC, so that leaves the Big12 and the ACC. Navy might have an open line to talk to the ACC, given its position, but neither Army nor Air Force would. And there's no indication that AF is in the frame for the Big12, so that would leave out Army and Navy there.

Quote: The SA's work well with others. They travel well. They don't compete for the same kind of kids as others do. They don't just bring tradition and legacy...they practically ooze it. For some reason, the snobs who sit at the top of most schools want to work with that, even if the meatheads in the offices overlooking the gyms don't.
All part of the reason why they would generally be welcome in any Go5 conference, even one where the travel would be an inconvenience (witness Navy playing in the American West).
(This post was last modified: 12-30-2014 08:21 PM by BruceMcF.)
12-30-2014 08:04 PM
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