(12-29-2014 05:16 PM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  Actually, that's a very unfair shot. It may be true of FSU's roster the past 3 - 4 years, but during the Bobby Bowden prime years (1977 - 2000), he ran a very clean program and was known for recruiting truly quality student-athletes (e.g., Ward, Dunn).

I think you'll find that is not quite true if you go back and look at all the issues FSU had during his reign. Just one example -- http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPc...9-idx.html

(12-29-2014 11:30 PM)InterestedX Wrote:  

(12-29-2014 05:16 PM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  Actually, that's a very unfair shot. It may be true of FSU's roster the past 3 - 4 years, but during the Bobby Bowden prime years (1977 - 2000), he ran a very clean program and was known for recruiting truly quality student-athletes (e.g., Ward, Dunn).

I think you'll find that is not quite true if you go back and look at all the issues FSU had during his reign. Just one example -- http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPc...9-idx.html

That was 1999, very near the very back end of the period that Walt referenced. I think Walt's point is reasonably correct, during the early years Bowden ran a pretty tight ship, but as he got older he let a lot more stuff go on.

Not to belabor a point, but anyone who was around there in the 80s would probably laugh at the idea. But that's just my understanding, and I didn't work there, so take that however you want. I'm sure they were all decent, studious young men.

(12-29-2014 05:16 PM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  

(12-29-2014 05:10 PM)westsidewolf1989 Wrote:  

(12-29-2014 05:06 PM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  

(12-29-2014 05:01 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(12-29-2014 04:57 PM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  Florida State was a nothing until Bobby Bowden arrived in the early 1970s, and the program burst into national prominence in the late 1970s with signature win after signature win.

Florida State had a pretty good run under Peterson before he came to Rice. But he still thought Rice was a step up from Florida State in 1971. That alone should give a pretty good idea of how far we have fallen.

FSU slid back a little after Peterson left, and was definitely back in the second tier when Bowden got there. How did he elevate them? By recruiting and coaching obviously--but also by being willing to play anybody, anywhere, any time--and beating a bunch of them on the road. Any lessons there?

Wasn't FSU still an independent back then?

Yeah, they were independent until '91. They were also elevated as a result of being willing to recruit players that were willing to break the law against anybody, anywhere, any time.

Actually, that's a very unfair shot. It may be true of FSU's roster the past 3 - 4 years, but during the Bobby Bowden prime years (1977 - 2000), he ran a very clean program and was known for recruiting truly quality student-athletes (e.g., Ward, Dunn).

You're absolutely right. All those free shoes they received during the Bowden era certainly were shiny and clean!

(12-28-2014 10:23 PM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  It was a lot more than just that. There has been a huge change in both professional football and college football since the 1950's when Rice was in a position of national stature in the sport.

Players are bigger, stronger and faster.
There is a lot more money at stake.
TV was in its infancy, and the number of people who actually watched a college football game on TV was minute compared to audiences today.

Some things don't change too much. I've heard from multiple sources (IIRC, they were my relatives, none tied to Rice) that Rice in the 50s era was one of the better paying programs.

(12-28-2014 10:23 PM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  Star players had time to pursue degrees in mathematics and engineering, and were not discouraged from doing so.
Pro football players made significantly less money than they do today, and almost all of them had second, off-season jobs to pay the rent.
Virtually none of the schools in the south had integrated. Comparing the level of play then to what it is now, is like comparing major league baseball today to 100 years ago. The talent pool competing is drawing from a much larger available population.

Teams skirted the rules even back then (OU got in trouble under Bud Wilkinson, IIRC), but I doubt teams had players who couldn't read, as both Oklahoma State and TCU did in the 1980's.

It may be apocryphal, but my dad relayed a story that they interviewed one of the recruits to Texas and asked him what he wanted to major in, and he said "Engineering, because I really like trains". Apocryphal or not, he was close enough to the program (from the journalism side) that it rang true...

(12-29-2014 01:19 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(12-28-2014 11:32 PM)Latenite Wrote:  

(12-28-2014 10:03 PM)wrysal Wrote:  

(12-28-2014 06:08 PM)FBChE Wrote:  There are two points that I would like to make.
1. This could be the second time that Rice has gone to three consecutive bowls, had the 1963 squad not turned down the Sun Bowl.
2. Bailiff has done a good job. Is he a Nick Saban? NO. But he "gets" Rice, which is a rare quality among football coaches. Graham also seems to "Get" Rice, and he has done a marvelous job with baseball. Football would be harder to turn around than baseball, but can be done, witness Baylor. Bailiff is turning it around. It is not quick, but it is steady. It is ongoing. My only problem with him is that he seems to be excessively loyal to both his coaches and his players, and does not take actions when necessary.

With Dr. K there to run interference for him, I would hope to see faster progress in the future.

A question that I have is how did we get in this mess in the first place. Rice was a major program at one time. I recently saw a 1939 Oklahoma Yearbook touting the fact that they were able to beat Rice 7-6, indicating that Rice was a power at that time.

I think that our troubles began when Pitzer was brought in to convert Rice from a well respected Regional Academic Institution to an Elite national university. I suspect that something had to give, and it was the no tuition policy and the athletic program expenses.

We are doing well and getting better. Lets tweak what needs to be improved, but not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

To your first point, a '63 bowl would have been 3 out of 4, as the '62 team went 2-6-2, I think (including a 14-14 tie versus No. 1 ut).

As to why we are where we are, Owl 69 has explained it many times. It was obvious the higher-ups weren't trying in the late-70s when I played, and that went on for decades.

I wasn't alive then, but I've always heard that it was the Gator Bowl that we turned down — not the Sun Bowl.

I was alive then, and a student. I heard the Sun Bowl

My bad, it was in 1954 that we declined an invitation to play in the Gator Bowl.

The shoe caper at FSU was a symptom of their having an elite program, not a cause or contributing enabler.

Once you have great athletes congregated and playing at the highest level in the country, temptations and enticements emerge (recall the Ohio State gear-for-tattoos scandal).

Perhaps the continued existence of those enticements in the presence of eyes-turned-away by Bowden and Tressell and the like contribute at the margins to sustaining elite status, but they aren't by itself an enabler.

If they were, Auburn-2012 could never have happened. (Lost 63-21 to TAMU, 38-0 to Georgia, and 49-0 to bama)

(12-30-2014 01:40 AM)InterestedX Wrote:  Not to belabor a point, but anyone who was around there in the 80s would probably laugh at the idea. But that's just my understanding, and I didn't work there, so take that however you want. I'm sure they were all decent, studious young men.

Nobody said anything about studious, they were football players at a state university, after all. But at least they seemed to keep their noses clean and stay out of trouble.

I cannot say enough positives about Coach Bailiff. The last 5 years have been a great experience for us as we have benefited greatly from this relationship and will always have wonderful memories of the Rice Owls.
I will continue to support the the Owls and the We Give A Hoots as well. We have handed off the reins to an excellent crew so please continue to go by every home game and say Hi to the Hoots.
This group of young men moving on to their next chapter in life will forever be thankful that they came to Rice.
GO OWLS

(12-30-2014 09:24 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(12-30-2014 01:40 AM)InterestedX Wrote:  Not to belabor a point, but anyone who was around there in the 80s would probably laugh at the idea. But that's just my understanding, and I didn't work there, so take that however you want. I'm sure they were all decent, studious young men.

Nobody said anything about studious, they were football players at a state university, after all. But at least they seemed to keep their noses clean and stay out of trouble.

Then why is their mascot named the "Criminoles" ?
(heh heh)

(12-31-2014 10:37 AM)davidw Wrote:  

(12-30-2014 09:24 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(12-30-2014 01:40 AM)InterestedX Wrote:  Not to belabor a point, but anyone who was around there in the 80s would probably laugh at the idea. But that's just my understanding, and I didn't work there, so take that however you want. I'm sure they were all decent, studious young men.

Nobody said anything about studious, they were football players at a state university, after all. But at least they seemed to keep their noses clean and stay out of trouble.

Then why is their mascot named the "Criminoles" ?
(heh heh)

That came later. Walt and I were talking about the pre-2000 years. For a long time FSU were the good guys and Miami the criminals. There were even articles wondering if FSU kept losing to Miami because they lacked the hard edge. There are indications that FSU may have even relaxed things a bit in search of that edge.

(12-31-2014 11:06 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(12-31-2014 10:37 AM)davidw Wrote:  

(12-30-2014 09:24 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(12-30-2014 01:40 AM)InterestedX Wrote:  Not to belabor a point, but anyone who was around there in the 80s would probably laugh at the idea. But that's just my understanding, and I didn't work there, so take that however you want. I'm sure they were all decent, studious young men.

Nobody said anything about studious, they were football players at a state university, after all. But at least they seemed to keep their noses clean and stay out of trouble.

Then why is their mascot named the "Criminoles" ?
(heh heh)

That came later. Walt and I were talking about the pre-2000 years. For a long time FSU were the good guys and Miami the criminals. There were even articles wondering if FSU kept losing to Miami because they lacked the hard edge. There are indications that FSU may have even relaxed things a bit in search of that edge.

Actually, I think it had more to do with Bobby Bowden getting older and taking on an every-smaller role in the football program. In his final 10 - 12 seasons at the helm (particularly after his sons left to get head coaching job elsewhere), he was little more than a figure and was a largely hands-off administrator, delegating on-field coaching and recruiting to his top assistants. No question, during the '70s, 80s and most of the '90s, Bowden and the FSU program was widely perceived as one of the good guys.

(12-31-2014 11:16 AM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  

(12-31-2014 11:06 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(12-31-2014 10:37 AM)davidw Wrote:  

(12-30-2014 09:24 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(12-30-2014 01:40 AM)InterestedX Wrote:  Not to belabor a point, but anyone who was around there in the 80s would probably laugh at the idea. But that's just my understanding, and I didn't work there, so take that however you want. I'm sure they were all decent, studious young men.

Nobody said anything about studious, they were football players at a state university, after all. But at least they seemed to keep their noses clean and stay out of trouble.

Then why is their mascot named the "Criminoles" ?
(heh heh)

That came later. Walt and I were talking about the pre-2000 years. For a long time FSU were the good guys and Miami the criminals. There were even articles wondering if FSU kept losing to Miami because they lacked the hard edge. There are indications that FSU may have even relaxed things a bit in search of that edge.

Actually, I think it had more to do with Bobby Bowden getting older and taking on an every-smaller role in the football program. In his final 10 - 12 seasons at the helm (particularly after his sons left to get head coaching job elsewhere), he was little more than a figure and was a largely hands-off administrator, delegating on-field coaching and recruiting to his top assistants. No question, during the '70s, 80s and most of the '90s, Bowden and the FSU program was widely perceived as one of the good guys.

And in conjunction with that, I have heard that a few of the assistants he brought in to replace his sons were more encouraging of some of the "hard edge" mentality. Probably a combination of things. I definitely think Bobby's aging affected his level of involvement. And they were definitely the "good guys" at least in perception for quite a long time

I am in the "positive energy" camp, as opposed to the "yelling and screaming" camp. After watching Rich Rodriguez (Arizona) for almost 3 quarters, with his verbal tirades directed at his own players, I'm so glad David Bailiff is the way he is.

(12-31-2014 10:40 PM)interwebowl Wrote:  David respects our student athletes too much to ever behave that way. If he were at most other institutions that nonsense and the need for it would be expected.

Three of the best I ever had the pleasure to spend any time around--Paul Bryant, Bill Walsh, Tom Landry--very seldom raised their voices and never behaved the way that Rich Rod did.

We destroyed our bowl opponent. Killer!

(12-25-2014 03:38 PM)Antarius Wrote:  

(12-25-2014 01:00 PM)At Ease Wrote:  

(12-25-2014 09:14 AM)Houston Owl Wrote:  I probably shouldn't interject at this point, but on a personal note...I have a friend/acquaintance who has been a Rice fan for 50+ years. He had a serious health problem this summer and his son called me to let me know that his health wasn't good and that I should probably stop by the hospital as soon as possible. The next day he called to say that a certain football coach stopped by unannounced the previous afternoon and spent two hours talking Rice football with his father during two-a-day practice. Dad was up and around and talking about trying to attend the Notre Dame game. He's been to a couple of home games and is looking forward to the Texas game next year.

Thanks for this thread.

Thanks for sharing. No matter what is said of Bailiff in the context of the program's direction, we all appreciate these actions.

+1

Agree 100%. David is a great person.....he does so many good things like this behind the scenes that no one knows about. He truly "gets" Rice......probably more than any coach in a long time