Putting my homerism cap on for a minute, while it likely would not have changed the course of history, one thing that REALLY would have helped the Big East was if Memphis had not blocked Cincy, Louisville, and USF from joining the BE in 2004. I think the abysmal season that year, and the ultimate Pitt team getting blasted in the Fiesta Bowl, gave the league a black eye and perception hit it was NEVER able to overcome. Despite good competitive teams in 2005, 2006, and 2007, that 2004 hit forever labeled the BE as the weak sister of the BCS.

(12-23-2014 11:21 AM)Otacon Wrote:  So can anyone tell me what the benefits are for having a 13+ conference? Why not just stop at 12? Other then money, I see no reason why expansion should've occurred....

Its about the money from the conference networks. For the Big 10 and SEC, they also both moved into high population, relatively high growth states. They hope to get more students (not just athletes) from those areas.

(12-23-2014 01:09 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  I will say this. There is a lot of revisionist history from former members about their supposed leaving because of the NOVA invite, seeing as how EVERY SINGLE member supported the idea. My personal opinion, their proposal would have actually been approved if not for the state of the Big 12 at the time they presented the plan. Everyone knew what the plan was going to be when they were invited, so the "shock" when they saw the final plan was a cover. IMO the plan was rejected because the Big 12 looked on the verge of implosion, and the BE was eyeing Kansas, K State, Mizzou, and Iowa St. Nova made the numbers not work, so then their proposal mysteriously was insufficient, even though everyone agreed knowing that was what they were going to do.

Actually, when Villanova was invited, they were caught flat footed. They had to do a 6 month process involving all the stakeholders. It was gross incompetence on the ADs part. And I remember the disgust and shock reactions when Villanova finally came in with their plan.

The incompetence of Villanova in this process had to sour the BE members who may have supported it before, thinking they could become competitive like UConn. And what they finally proposed months later was not well received. They never refused the Big East in 2010. It was a, "Let us talk about it for 6 months."

(12-23-2014 01:09 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  I will say this. There is a lot of revisionist history from former members about their supposed leaving because of the NOVA invite, seeing as how EVERY SINGLE member supported the idea. My personal opinion, their proposal would have actually been approved if not for the state of the Big 12 at the time they presented the plan. Everyone knew what the plan was going to be when they were invited, so the "shock" when they saw the final plan was a cover. IMO the plan was rejected because the Big 12 looked on the verge of implosion, and the BE was eyeing Kansas, K State, Mizzou, and Iowa St. Nova made the numbers not work, so then their proposal mysteriously was insufficient, even though everyone agreed knowing that was what they were going to do.

I think this is the most accurate post in this thread. Sums it up perfectly.

We could dust off our countless posts on this topic. Every 6 months this all gets rehashed.

In 2005:
Marquette and DePaul gave the BE 8 "hoops" schools.
USF, Louisville and Cincinnati gave the BE 8 "football" schools.

The deal was that the 16 of us would stay together for 5 years, which expired on July 1, 2010.

At that point, the football (and hoops) schools would be allowed to split, using their "Get Out Of Jail Free" card. If that happened, the 8 hoops schools and 8 football schools would be able to retain their NCAA autobid (in separate conferences).

For reasons that are never answered by anyone on this board (because it's easier to blame the C-7), the football schools never split... my guess is that Syracuse (in particular) valued being with Georgetown and Villanova (and NYC eyeballs with St John's) more than they valued splitting and hanging out with West Virginia and South Florida, etc.

Anyway, the 8+8 format created the greatest hoops conference in history. The 8+8 format also retained auto access to a BCS bowl.

Remember also that the BE football schools at any time (from 2005 on) could have invited any additional football members. If the football schools wanted 12 and a CCG, they could have done that. The 8 football schools could not agree on any expansion school (until TCU and Villanova were given offers, unanimously, and with full understanding that Villanova had no access to Lincoln Field (cuz Temple had it) and would use the Phila Union's soccer stadium in Chester)). [Side note: Villanova is closer to Chester, with easier access, that Storrs is to East Hartford, with worse access.]

So at any point from 2005 on, the football schools could have invited East Carolina, Central Florida, Memphis, Tulane, SMU, Houston, Tulsa, Navy, Army... every one of these schools could have been in the Big East football conference in 2005 if the football schools wanted... every one... so why do Pitt and West Virginia and Rutgers get a free pass from ECU and UCF fans...? I have no idea.

Anyway, I don't have the time to respond to every post, especially the good doctor's and miko the troll's... but Pitt's fork-tongued Nordenberg was the BE's media frontman, and the dude was sabotaging the ESPN offer and making backroom deals with ESPN and the ACC.

Maybe if the Big East had added Louisville, Cincinnati, USF, UCF, TCU, Memphis and kept BC and Temple, things might have kept a large portion intact but then the Big East would have been a Huge conference compared to others. If the Big 12 had gone to 12 after Their shake up the chain of event would have still resulted in the Big East being reduced by 2 more schools then The AAC currently have as Cincinnati and UConn would also have landed somewhere else.

(12-23-2014 02:43 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(12-23-2014 01:09 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  I will say this. There is a lot of revisionist history from former members about their supposed leaving because of the NOVA invite, seeing as how EVERY SINGLE member supported the idea. My personal opinion, their proposal would have actually been approved if not for the state of the Big 12 at the time they presented the plan. Everyone knew what the plan was going to be when they were invited, so the "shock" when they saw the final plan was a cover. IMO the plan was rejected because the Big 12 looked on the verge of implosion, and the BE was eyeing Kansas, K State, Mizzou, and Iowa St. Nova made the numbers not work, so then their proposal mysteriously was insufficient, even though everyone agreed knowing that was what they were going to do.

Actually, when Villanova was invited, they were caught flat footed. They had to do a 6 month process involving all the stakeholders. It was gross incompetence on the ADs part. And I remember the disgust and shock reactions when Villanova finally came in with their plan.

The incompetence of Villanova in this process had to sour the BE members who may have supported it before, thinking they could become competitive like UConn. And what they finally proposed months later was not well received. They never refused the Big East in 2010. It was a, "Let us talk about it for 6 months."

When they, UConn, and Georgetown were approached a little over a decade earlier, VU was a "not at this time." What's the most infuriating, especially if you were a VU fan who wanted the upgrade, was that Villanova appeared to do nothing in that decade on the subject. No due diligence in any way.

Villanova fans who defend their AD point fingers at the OSA who ultimately govern what Nicastro can do. They often throw the Order under the bus rather than Vince. But, all it does is make Vince look more spineless and inept.

Villanova's got itself an institutional identity crisis. It's chasing after UPenn and trying to be more comprehensive like Temple, while still appearing more elite than TU. If you know the area, it's literally right down the road from little liberal arts giants Bryn Mawr and Haverford, with Swarthmore not far off. Radnor Township won't let VU do anything to expand that stadium. Part of the reason VU plays marquee basketball games in Philly is because its on-campus arena is turning into a dump and isn't suited for major ball. Radnor fights them on anything sports related. NIMBY-types if there ever were any.

(12-22-2014 10:42 PM)jaredf29 Wrote:  The BE offering Nova was a joke and everyone knew it. That was pretty much the end of the line for them.

No. It was a legit offer. The joke was 'Nova's response. They were offered a get into the Power Club free card and their response was "Well...um...we could maybe ...um play in a soccer stadium that holds 18k several ..umm miles away....maybe rent bleachers...". Villanova was and is perfectly comfortable sponsoring football at the FCS level. They are not Baylor.

You say Nova could have changed conference realignment? I'm thinking Penn State changed the dynamics of conference realignment. Everything went down hill for the BE when they denied PSU for not have a stellar b-ball program...

You know what's interesting though? Pitt was in the middle of both decisions. It is my understanding that they didn't want Nova because Nova didn't have a legit FBS stadium... I'm not too sure about how they felt about Penn State at the time of the vote. I cannot remember if they were for or against adding Penn State.

(12-23-2014 04:43 PM)LUcanesfan Wrote:  You say Nova could have changed conference realignment? I'm thinking Penn State changed the dynamics of conference realignment. Everything went down hill for the BE when they denied PSU for not have a stellar b-ball program...

You know what's interesting though? Pitt was in the middle of both decisions. It is my understanding that they didn't want Nova because Nova didn't have a legit FBS stadium... I'm not too sure about how they felt about Penn State at the time of the vote. I cannot remember if they were for or against adding Penn State.

95% sure that they were against.

The only thing that could have changed history for Big East football is if the conference had stepped up big when it first formed. The Big East could have had FSU and Clemson, both of whom were extremely upset with the ACC at the time. Add those 2, Penn State, and 1 more school, and the Big East could have been holding a championship game for as long as the SEC. If the Big East had done that, the ACC would be the afterthought today.

But the Big East thought small, and small Big East football remained, until it's ultimate demise. Neither Villanova, nor Georgetown, who was also given the option to upgrade their football program at the same time as UConn, would have changed that. Going big, with a bunch of small time football programs, wouldn't have changed a thing.

(12-23-2014 03:05 PM)billyjack Wrote:  For reasons that are never answered by anyone on this board (because it's easier to blame the C-7), the football schools never split... my guess is that Syracuse (in particular) valued being with Georgetown and Villanova (and NYC eyeballs with St John's) more than they valued splitting and hanging out with West Virginia and South Florida, etc.

I can answer it: it's because the marriage was good for both sides. The football schools needed the markets of the basketball schools, and the basketball schools needed the "meat" of the football schools. Plus the BE's two biggest assets, market size and basketball depth, required both aides together. Neither was worth more (per school) without the other. Simple as that.

Villanova played Division I football until the program was dropped in April 1981. Maryland may have been Villanova’s largest rival from 1970 to 1980, with Maryland beating Villanova 8 out of 10 games. Villanova also played Boston College pretty regularly from 1970 to 1980. It’s amazing how the fortunes of those two Catholic schools have diverged since Villanova dropped football. Today Boston College has a substantially larger endowment and enrollment. I'm sure the success of Boston College's football program has contributed greatly to the school's financial success and popularity.

(12-23-2014 04:48 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(12-23-2014 04:43 PM)LUcanesfan Wrote:  You say Nova could have changed conference realignment? I'm thinking Penn State changed the dynamics of conference realignment. Everything went down hill for the BE when they denied PSU for not have a stellar b-ball program...

You know what's interesting though? Pitt was in the middle of both decisions. It is my understanding that they didn't want Nova because Nova didn't have a legit FBS stadium... I'm not too sure about how they felt about Penn State at the time of the vote. I cannot remember if they were for or against adding Penn State.

95% sure that they were against.

Depends which time that Penn State approached the Big East. Pitt wasn't yet a member of the Big East the first time PSU tried to get in. Later, Pitt was for them.

And I can vouch that von Yinzer's is post is mostly dead accurate. And I'll add, Pitt's Chancellor informed the Big East leadership, in writing, one year prior to the actually ACC invite that it was going to shop around. WVU and RU were as well, and the Villanova issue is absolutely what brought it to a head. It was an open secret among the leadership that everyone was looking for an exit.

(12-23-2014 01:09 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  I will say this. There is a lot of revisionist history from former members about their supposed leaving because of the NOVA invite, seeing as how EVERY SINGLE member supported the idea. My personal opinion, their proposal would have actually been approved if not for the state of the Big 12 at the time they presented the plan. Everyone knew what the plan was going to be when they were invited, so the "shock" when they saw the final plan was a cover. IMO the plan was rejected because the Big 12 looked on the verge of implosion, and the BE was eyeing Kansas, K State, Mizzou, and Iowa St. Nova made the numbers not work, so then their proposal mysteriously was insufficient, even though everyone agreed knowing that was what they were going to do.

Excuse me..sir, but facts and the truth have no place here!

Some also seem to forget that villanova had a standing offer to join the BE in FB should they decide to upgrade. The right of 1st refusal. This dates back to at least the time when UConn decided to make the upgrade

(12-23-2014 04:48 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(12-23-2014 04:43 PM)LUcanesfan Wrote:  You say Nova could have changed conference realignment? I'm thinking Penn State changed the dynamics of conference realignment. Everything went down hill for the BE when they denied PSU for not have a stellar b-ball program...

You know what's interesting though? Pitt was in the middle of both decisions. It is my understanding that they didn't want Nova because Nova didn't have a legit FBS stadium... I'm not too sure about how they felt about Penn State at the time of the vote. I cannot remember if they were for or against adding Penn State.

95% sure that they were against.

Pitt was involved in the PSU discussion. They werent even in the BE at the time.
It was a 5-3 "vote". (wasnt an actual vote, more like a poll)
Syracuse, BC, PC, UConn and Seton Hall in favor. St johns, georgetown and Nova not in favor. Not having the needed support, the PSU discussion died on the vine. Pitt got the call shortly afterward

(12-23-2014 12:35 PM)chess Wrote:  The Big East's push to move Villanova into the Big East football conference is the reason Syracuse and Pittsburgh left.

The school that could have drastically changed the Big East should have been East Carolina. East Carolina should have joined the Big East with Virginia Tech, Pittsburgh, Syracuse, West Virginia, Rutgers, etc... Having ECU build their program, like Virginia Tech's grew, would have had another 50-60,000 fan base in the conference.

Villanove, and the rest of the Big East basketball only schools were the challenge in creating a stable football conference.

In addition, Louisville, which joined the Big East later, had the budget of a BCS program without access. Eventually, Louisville joined the Big East and left for the ACC.

If the split would have occured during the first crisis (1994 or 1995?), temple would have gotten an all sports invite and Louisville and ECU would have been in. That would have been a really solid ten team league

Jackson

(12-23-2014 08:47 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  

(12-23-2014 01:09 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  I will say this. There is a lot of revisionist history from former members about their supposed leaving because of the NOVA invite, seeing as how EVERY SINGLE member supported the idea. My personal opinion, their proposal would have actually been approved if not for the state of the Big 12 at the time they presented the plan. Everyone knew what the plan was going to be when they were invited, so the "shock" when they saw the final plan was a cover. IMO the plan was rejected because the Big 12 looked on the verge of implosion, and the BE was eyeing Kansas, K State, Mizzou, and Iowa St. Nova made the numbers not work, so then their proposal mysteriously was insufficient, even though everyone agreed knowing that was what they were going to do.

Excuse me..sir, but facts and the truth have no place here!

Some also seem to forget that villanova had a standing offer to join the BE in FB should they decide to upgrade. The right of 1st refusal. This dates back to at least the time when UConn decided to make the upgrade

They had a window in the 90s and Villanova chose not to exercise their option, as did all the non-D1A schools except UConn. It was part of the compromise for bringing in the football-only schools as full members...which was a solution to a very serious crisis that almost resulted in the conference splitting in two.

B12 instability had nothing to do with Villanova. The BE was prepared to take the B12 leftovers had UT and OU left for the Pac, but that was tangential.

For once, miko is actually clear-headed and correct without sarcasm. Villanova is a complete straw man. Every single Big East school was going to take an invite from any of the other power conferences on the spot. Anyone saying that Villanova was the "last straw" for certain Big East schools is definitely revising history - the "last straw" was when Miami left the league in 2003. After that, every single school in the Big East constantly put out feelers to every other power league. The fact that the ACC, Big 12 and Big Ten finally returned their calls in 2011 and 2012 has nothing to do with Villanova.

(12-24-2014 02:12 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  For once, miko is actually clear-headed and correct without sarcasm. Villanova is a complete straw man. Every single Big East school was going to take an invite from any of the other power conferences on the spot. Anyone saying that Villanova was the "last straw" for certain Big East schools is definitely revising history - the "last straw" was when Miami left the league in 2003. After that, every single school in the Big East constantly put out feelers to every other power league. The fact that the ACC, Big 12 and Big Ten finally returned their calls in 2011 and 2012 has nothing to do with Villanova.

There's a difference between the hypothetical scenario where a school might accept an invite that comes along, which is still quite possible as you suggest, versus schools actively seeking them out with full knowledge of the other membership. Just like there is a difference between pontificating based on second hand reports and knowing what actually happened. The Villanova issue change the dynamics between the BE leadership in a way that was irreparable, and if you don't believe that, you're still stuck on your typical mode of operandi, which is par for the course.