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C-USA at 13 can't endure.
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Kittonhead Offline
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Post: #581
RE: C-USA at 13 can't endure.
(01-04-2015 09:40 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  
(01-03-2015 04:12 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  -Ohio has averaged 7 FB wins a year over the past decade including 6 bowl games. As far as where that performance ranks in the MAC, only NIU has been better. Included in that performance is 7 consecutive wins over Akron and 8 of 9 over Miami. Lackluster is Miami and Akron.
Which is to say that its only NIU that clearly rises above the level of lackluster over that period in the MAC. Averaging 7 FB wins a year in the weaker MAC East when that has been padded by games against Akron and MiamiU in the shape they have been recently implies a team that would have fallen short of 7 FB wins a year over the past decade if they played in the tougher MAC West.

Quote: -Ohio BB program has averaged 23 wins a year over the last 5 seasons, 5 consecutive post season appearances including one Sweet 16 and one Round 32. Ohio's total basketball attendance is close to double the next MAC school.
Too bad for CUSA they can't get that Ohio BBall program, but unfortunately for them, the one on offer is the one going forward.

But that sales pitch is instructive for those who might have labored under any illusion whether or not the real reason you are in this thread is about pimping the OhioU program for a lateral move to CUSA.

07-coffee3

-Ohio football team has been very consistent, which is rare for the MAC. The program was playing in the MAC East but the East has gone 4-6 in MAC title games over that time frame. Ohio lost the 2011 game in the last seconds otherwise its 5-5.

-If you do not think Ohio will find a spot in the basketball post season this year you are overly hopeful. The non-conference record was 5-6 but that included hanging 99 points on DePaul in a victory and close losses to Belmont and OT against Evansville in the road. Bobcats could easily be 7-4. I fully expect the team to finish over .500 and get a post season spot. Further, to the future with a Michigan State transfer coming in there is no drop off in recruiting.
01-04-2015 12:28 PM
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NIU007 Offline
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Post: #582
RE: C-USA at 13 can't endure.
(01-04-2015 12:28 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  
(01-04-2015 09:40 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  
(01-03-2015 04:12 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  -Ohio has averaged 7 FB wins a year over the past decade including 6 bowl games. As far as where that performance ranks in the MAC, only NIU has been better. Included in that performance is 7 consecutive wins over Akron and 8 of 9 over Miami. Lackluster is Miami and Akron.
Which is to say that its only NIU that clearly rises above the level of lackluster over that period in the MAC. Averaging 7 FB wins a year in the weaker MAC East when that has been padded by games against Akron and MiamiU in the shape they have been recently implies a team that would have fallen short of 7 FB wins a year over the past decade if they played in the tougher MAC West.

Quote: -Ohio BB program has averaged 23 wins a year over the last 5 seasons, 5 consecutive post season appearances including one Sweet 16 and one Round 32. Ohio's total basketball attendance is close to double the next MAC school.
Too bad for CUSA they can't get that Ohio BBall program, but unfortunately for them, the one on offer is the one going forward.

But that sales pitch is instructive for those who might have labored under any illusion whether or not the real reason you are in this thread is about pimping the OhioU program for a lateral move to CUSA.

07-coffee3

-Ohio football team has been very consistent, which is rare for the MAC. The program was playing in the MAC East but the East has gone 4-6 in MAC title games over that time frame. Ohio lost the 2011 game in the last seconds otherwise its 5-5.

-If you do not think Ohio will find a spot in the basketball post season this year you are overly hopeful. The non-conference record was 5-6 but that included hanging 99 points on DePaul in a victory and close losses to Belmont and OT against Evansville in the road. Bobcats could easily be 7-4. I fully expect the team to finish over .500 and get a post season spot. Further, to the future with a Michigan State transfer coming in there is no drop off in recruiting.

And NIU lost twice in the final seconds, otherwise it would have been 2-8.
01-04-2015 12:34 PM
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Kittonhead Offline
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Post: #583
RE: C-USA at 13 can't endure.
(01-04-2015 12:34 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  
(01-04-2015 12:28 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  
(01-04-2015 09:40 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  
(01-03-2015 04:12 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  -Ohio has averaged 7 FB wins a year over the past decade including 6 bowl games. As far as where that performance ranks in the MAC, only NIU has been better. Included in that performance is 7 consecutive wins over Akron and 8 of 9 over Miami. Lackluster is Miami and Akron.
Which is to say that its only NIU that clearly rises above the level of lackluster over that period in the MAC. Averaging 7 FB wins a year in the weaker MAC East when that has been padded by games against Akron and MiamiU in the shape they have been recently implies a team that would have fallen short of 7 FB wins a year over the past decade if they played in the tougher MAC West.

Quote: -Ohio BB program has averaged 23 wins a year over the last 5 seasons, 5 consecutive post season appearances including one Sweet 16 and one Round 32. Ohio's total basketball attendance is close to double the next MAC school.
Too bad for CUSA they can't get that Ohio BBall program, but unfortunately for them, the one on offer is the one going forward.

But that sales pitch is instructive for those who might have labored under any illusion whether or not the real reason you are in this thread is about pimping the OhioU program for a lateral move to CUSA.

07-coffee3

-Ohio football team has been very consistent, which is rare for the MAC. The program was playing in the MAC East but the East has gone 4-6 in MAC title games over that time frame. Ohio lost the 2011 game in the last seconds otherwise its 5-5.

-If you do not think Ohio will find a spot in the basketball post season this year you are overly hopeful. The non-conference record was 5-6 but that included hanging 99 points on DePaul in a victory and close losses to Belmont and OT against Evansville in the road. Bobcats could easily be 7-4. I fully expect the team to finish over .500 and get a post season spot. Further, to the future with a Michigan State transfer coming in there is no drop off in recruiting.

And NIU lost twice in the final seconds, otherwise it would have been 2-8.

That's nice but the talent difference has not been that high.

Ohio is #2 in the MAC at putting players into the NFL over the last decade behind only Toledo. We don't play Toledo and NIU very often because of the imbalanced 13 team schedule so its hard to say how Ohio would do in the West.

In the last decade Ohio owns a record of 6-1 against Pitt, Penn State and Temple with 1 OT loss to Temple in 2008. That is pretty striking for a MAC team. It definitely isn't a lackluster performance by a MAC program.
(This post was last modified: 01-04-2015 01:01 PM by Kittonhead.)
01-04-2015 12:51 PM
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Kittonhead Offline
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Post: #584
RE: C-USA at 13 can't endure.
I think its worth taking a look at the basketball budgets in the AAC, CUSA and MAC for comparison sake. Note the huge basketball budgets at Memphis, UConn, SMU and Cincinnati.

The median basketball budget in the MAC is Kent State at 1.86 mil. The median budget in CUSA is Middle Tennessee at 2.16 mil. So its a difference of 300k, which is not to much. The median AAC budget is Temple at 4.13 million, 2 million more than CUSA.

The idea of Ohio moving to CUSA was to get it among a group of schools that had higher budgets. Ohio is #1 in MAC basketball budget and equal in budget to UMass of the A10. If Ohio joined CUSA they would walk in as the #2 basketball budget but in the AAC they would only rank #8.

The questions for Ohio is does CUSA make enough difference and/or will the AAC be too hard? Do you go for the CUSA invite or do you hold out for the AAC?

If you are talking about getting into the AAC post raid after Memphis and UConn have departed then walking in Ohio would rank #6 in budget, closer to the median if not the median.

So I believe then the answer for Ohio is to stay in the MAC and wait for the AAC. Get the basketball budget up over 4 million and the basketball practice gym built. Put the production equipment in place as required for the MAC's TV deal. Get the naming rights for the basketball arena and the new scoreboard done. If Akron or NIU want to join CUSA I get that since they'll never have a sniff at the AAC but for a legit AAC contender there is no point in making a move.

American Athletic Conference
01.) University of Memphis - $8,457,959
02.) University of Connecticut - $7,293,895
03.) Southern Methodist University - $6,582,998
04.) University of Cincinnati - $6,172,290
05.) University of South Florida - $4,399,051
06.) Temple University - $4,125,712
07.) University of Tulsa - $3,920,631
08.) Tulane University - $2,849,058
09.) University of Central Florida - $2,843,388
10.) University of Houston - $2,598,898
11.) East Carolina University - $2,465,163

Conference USA
01.) The University of Texas at El Paso - $3,446,830
02.) Rice University - $3,110,636
03.) University of Alabama at Birmingham - $2,946,415
04.) Western Kentucky University - $2,668,950
05.) Old Dominion University - $2,529,553
06.) Marshall University - $2,373,586
07.) Middle Tennessee State University - $2,155,002
08.) University of North Texas - $2,016,950
09.) University of Southern Mississippi - $2,002,033
10.) Florida International University - $1,776,629
11.) Louisiana Tech University - $1,744,438
12.) The University of Texas at San Antonio - $1,642,525
13.) Florida Atlantic University - $1,625,290

Mid-American Conference
01.) University of Massachusetts Amherst - $3,266,120
02.) Ohio University - $3,222,448
03.) University at Buffalo - $2,142,779
04.) University of Akron - $2,051,314
05.) Miami University-Oxford - $1,900,435
06.) Western Michigan University - $1,867,684
07.) Kent State University - $1,855,599
08.) University of Toledo - $1,847,789
09.) Central Michigan University - $1,666,104
10.) Eastern Michigan University - $1,608,150
11.) Ball State University - $1,561,611
12.) Bowling Green State University - $1,460,613
13.) Northern Illinois University - $1,447,289
01-04-2015 01:42 PM
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ARSTATEFAN1986 Offline
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Post: #585
RE: C-USA at 13 can't endure.
(01-04-2015 01:42 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  I think its worth taking a look at the basketball budgets in the AAC, CUSA and MAC for comparison sake. Note the huge basketball budgets at Memphis, UConn, SMU and Cincinnati.

The median basketball budget in the MAC is Kent State at 1.86 mil. The median budget in CUSA is Middle Tennessee at 2.16 mil. So its a difference of 300k, which is not to much. The median AAC budget is Temple at 4.13 million, 2 million more than CUSA.

The idea of Ohio moving to CUSA was to get it among a group of schools that had higher budgets. Ohio is #1 in MAC basketball budget and equal in budget to UMass of the A10. If Ohio joined CUSA they would walk in as the #2 basketball budget but in the AAC they would only rank #8.

The questions for Ohio is does CUSA make enough difference and/or will the AAC be too hard? Do you go for the CUSA invite or do you hold out for the AAC?

If you are talking about getting into the AAC post raid after Memphis and UConn have departed then walking in Ohio would rank #6 in budget, closer to the median if not the median.

So I believe then the answer for Ohio is to stay in the MAC and wait for the AAC. Get the basketball budget up over 4 million and the basketball practice gym built. Put the production equipment in place as required for the MAC's TV deal. Get the naming rights for the basketball arena and the new scoreboard done. If Akron or NIU want to join CUSA I get that since they'll never have a sniff at the AAC but for a legit AAC contender there is no point in making a move.

American Athletic Conference
01.) University of Memphis - $8,457,959
02.) University of Connecticut - $7,293,895
03.) Southern Methodist University - $6,582,998
04.) University of Cincinnati - $6,172,290
05.) University of South Florida - $4,399,051
06.) Temple University - $4,125,712
07.) University of Tulsa - $3,920,631
08.) Tulane University - $2,849,058
09.) University of Central Florida - $2,843,388
10.) University of Houston - $2,598,898
11.) East Carolina University - $2,465,163

Conference USA
01.) The University of Texas at El Paso - $3,446,830
02.) Rice University - $3,110,636
03.) University of Alabama at Birmingham - $2,946,415
04.) Western Kentucky University - $2,668,950
05.) Old Dominion University - $2,529,553
06.) Marshall University - $2,373,586
07.) Middle Tennessee State University - $2,155,002
08.) University of North Texas - $2,016,950
09.) University of Southern Mississippi - $2,002,033
10.) Florida International University - $1,776,629
11.) Louisiana Tech University - $1,744,438
12.) The University of Texas at San Antonio - $1,642,525
13.) Florida Atlantic University - $1,625,290

Mid-American Conference
01.) University of Massachusetts Amherst - $3,266,120
02.) Ohio University - $3,222,448
03.) University at Buffalo - $2,142,779
04.) University of Akron - $2,051,314
05.) Miami University-Oxford - $1,900,435
06.) Western Michigan University - $1,867,684
07.) Kent State University - $1,855,599
08.) University of Toledo - $1,847,789
09.) Central Michigan University - $1,666,104
10.) Eastern Michigan University - $1,608,150
11.) Ball State University - $1,561,611
12.) Bowling Green State University - $1,460,613
13.) Northern Illinois University - $1,447,289

"
The idea of Ohio moving to CUSA was to get it among a group of schools that had higher budgets. Ohio is #1 in MAC basketball budget and equal in budget to UMass of the A10. If Ohio joined CUSA they would walk in as the #2 basketball budget but in the AAC they would only rank #8."

There is no way Ohio would consider a move to CUSA as it would be at best a lateral move. They would consider a move to AAC as anyone in CUSA or Belt would do.
(This post was last modified: 01-04-2015 10:32 PM by ARSTATEFAN1986.)
01-04-2015 10:32 PM
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BruceMcF Offline
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Post: #586
RE: C-USA at 13 can't endure.
(01-04-2015 01:42 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  I think its worth taking a look at the basketball budgets in the AAC, CUSA and MAC for comparison sake. Note the huge basketball budgets at Memphis, UConn, SMU and Cincinnati.

The median basketball budget in the MAC is Kent State at 1.86 mil. The median budget in CUSA is Middle Tennessee at 2.16 mil. So its a difference of 300k, which is not to much. The median AAC budget is Temple at 4.13 million, 2 million more than CUSA.
... And much of the difference in budgets between the MAC and CUSA reflect the higher travel costs in CUSA, so does not reflect a difference in net investment into the programs themselves ...

Quote: The idea of Ohio moving to CUSA was to get it among a group of schools that had higher budgets. Ohio is #1 in MAC basketball budget and equal in budget to UMass of the A10. If Ohio joined CUSA they would walk in as the #2 basketball budget but in the AAC they would only rank #8.
Man oh man, if only you could read what you write without having your confirmation bias blinders on ... if the idea of moving OhioU into CUSA was to get it among a group of schools with substantially higher budgets, it is a silly idea, since as you point out it would only be a change from having the largest budget to having the second largest budget.

Quote: The questions for Ohio is does CUSA make enough difference and/or will the AAC be too hard? Do you go for the CUSA invite or do you hold out for the AAC?
Hold out for the AAC, since your own argument shows that CUSA is a lateral move at best. Especially since the early returns on CUSA v3.0 vs MAC in terms of competitiveness on the court favors the MAC.

(01-04-2015 12:51 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  Ohio is #2 in the MAC at putting players into the NFL over the last decade behind only Toledo. We don't play Toledo and NIU very often because of the imbalanced 13 team schedule so its hard to say how Ohio would do in the West.
You haven't played them very often this decade because despite playing in the weaker Eastern division, and despite you bigger budget, you have only won the division (outright or on tie-breaker) to go to the CCG three times in the past decade, and each time fell short of the conference championship. Were you even born in 1968, the last season that OhioU took the MAC championship?

OhioU certainly has ambitions of being better, but in the sport where moving from the MAC to CUSA would arguably be a step up, they have no yet shown they deserve to step up, and in the sport where they have performed the best, CUSA would now seem to be a step down.
(This post was last modified: 01-04-2015 10:53 PM by BruceMcF.)
01-04-2015 10:44 PM
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ARSTATEFAN1986 Offline
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Post: #587
RE: C-USA at 13 can't endure.
(01-04-2015 10:44 PM)BruceMcF Wrote:  
(01-04-2015 01:42 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  I think its worth taking a look at the basketball budgets in the AAC, CUSA and MAC for comparison sake. Note the huge basketball budgets at Memphis, UConn, SMU and Cincinnati.

The median basketball budget in the MAC is Kent State at 1.86 mil. The median budget in CUSA is Middle Tennessee at 2.16 mil. So its a difference of 300k, which is not to much. The median AAC budget is Temple at 4.13 million, 2 million more than CUSA.
... And much of the difference in budgets between the MAC and CUSA reflect the higher travel costs in CUSA, so does not reflect a difference in net investment into the programs themselves ...

Quote: The idea of Ohio moving to CUSA was to get it among a group of schools that had higher budgets. Ohio is #1 in MAC basketball budget and equal in budget to UMass of the A10. If Ohio joined CUSA they would walk in as the #2 basketball budget but in the AAC they would only rank #8.
Man oh man, if only you could read what you write without having your confirmation bias blinders on ... if the idea of moving OhioU into CUSA was to get it among a group of schools with substantially higher budgets, it is a silly idea, since as you point out it would only be a change from having the largest budget to having the second largest budget.

Quote: The questions for Ohio is does CUSA make enough difference and/or will the AAC be too hard? Do you go for the CUSA invite or do you hold out for the AAC?
Hold out for the AAC, since your own argument shows that CUSA is a lateral move at best. Especially since the early returns on CUSA v3.0 vs MAC in terms of competitiveness on the court favors the MAC.

(01-04-2015 12:51 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  Ohio is #2 in the MAC at putting players into the NFL over the last decade behind only Toledo. We don't play Toledo and NIU very often because of the imbalanced 13 team schedule so its hard to say how Ohio would do in the West.
You haven't played them very often this decade because despite playing in the weaker Eastern division, and despite you bigger budget, you have only won the division (outright or on tie-breaker) to go to the CCG three times in the past decade, and each time fell short of the conference championship. Were you even born in 1968, the last season that OhioU took the MAC championship?

OhioU certainly has ambitions of being better, but in the sport where moving from the MAC to CUSA would arguably be a step up, they have no yet shown they deserve to step up, and in the sport where they have performed the best, CUSA would now seem to be a step down.

It would not be a step up.
01-04-2015 11:34 PM
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eltigre Offline
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Post: #588
RE: C-USA at 13 can't endure.
(12-20-2014 08:39 PM)chiefsfan Wrote:  
(12-20-2014 08:23 PM)Kingkong13 Wrote:  I don't see Arkansas State getting into the AAC. They are all about Markets.

Markets aside, we're never getting into the AAC as long as the Memphis High is in it.

Our administration is an odd duck though. When we talk to fans and everything else, we make a very big deal about this whole peer school concept...and amazingly our peer schools represent the entire AAC. Our AD has been openly critical of CUSA, I think if offered, we would accept because we'd hate the idea of the SBC leaving around us, but he'd have to completely do a 180 on his opinion of the league if it were to happen.

Fan wise, there's little pressure. We had multiple fans at the basketball game today that had never heard of Marshall before, and assumed they were from Texas. There's just that little knowledge of non SEC and Sun Belt teams in this state.

Memphis High - aren't you cute. Memphis could not be in the AAC and your school in Jonesboro still ain't getting in. And you may be giving ua-jonesboro just a bit too much credit there scooter. Not really thought of much at all. You seem to make it out like we pull out the "Block UA-Jonesboro" dossier anytime conference matters are brought up in meetings. For the record there were quite a few Memphis fans that at one time wanted ua-jonesboro in CUSA and ya'll are still a good fit for them. The AAC model just does not justify adding you. No slight - just how it is.
01-05-2015 12:22 AM
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gulfcoastgal Offline
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Post: #589
RE: C-USA at 13 can't endure.
(01-01-2015 06:48 PM)Side Show Joe Wrote:  
(01-01-2015 06:12 PM)baruna falls Wrote:  
(01-01-2015 05:14 PM)Side Show Joe Wrote:  
(01-01-2015 04:49 PM)gassman Wrote:  
(01-01-2015 09:43 AM)Side Show Joe Wrote:  Now is not the time to be cheap. Playing FBS football costs money, and it will only get more expensive. Every current C-USA member knew that when they joined. I don't believe C-USA programs will find safety in larger numbers. I don't believe that is the answer. These unneeded extra programs you want to add don't work on large athletic budgets, and might have a very hard time surviving the increasing costs of playing FBS football. Every current C-USA program just needs to raise their game, continue improving on the field, and increasing fan support in their regions. Adding more than one strategically placed strong program in the west and bloating the conference, isn't the solution. Plus, the western division is where we will be short a team. There is no reason for eastern schools to try and muscle the west to add more eastern teams.

Cutting costs is not the same thing as being cheap. If adding three quality programs while at the same time cutting costs is being cheap I don't understand what being cheap means.

If the 3 programs are of enough quality, than it isn't being cheap, it would be strengthening the conference. I just don't see 3 truly quality programs out there right now, which is why I'm not in favor of expanding to 16. If the 3 aren't all that great, than it wouldn't really improve the strength of C-USA. It would just be adding to create more convenience, which I don't believe helps to improve our product on the field. That is why I view it as being cheap. Which 3 do you endorse? Maybe we will agree that they would be good for C-USA.
Given this criteria North Texas would not have made the original cut into Conf USA.North Texas was suffering from a decade of losing.North Texas, was added because of its market,not because it was a quality winning program.Careful how you re create the Conf USA narrative.

Markets are always part of the equation. Since C-USA's media deal is up, I'd say it is a very important part of this equation.

As far as North Texas goes... We generate more interest the Dallas market for C-USA than SMU does for the AAC. In fact, I wouldn't knock North Texas too much. Over our decade of losing, we've still gone 2-1 against SMU, including our 43-6 beat down of SMU this season. Also, North Texas earned C-USA a New Years Day bowl win over the MWC, so it isn't like we've been doormats since getting our spot.

You know if the AAC lost SMU, they'd be down in DFW wanting North Texas, because there is no way the AAC would give up the Dallas market.

I find the bolded key and interesting. Both CUSA and the AAC have contracts with CBSSN who chose to air North Texas (4-8) once and SMU (1-11) six times in 2014. It's obvious how they valued the two under performing teams.

I think both are good for their conferences and vice versa. As Fox moves more games onto their regionals, strong local support makes good business sense. Also, assuming North Texas recruits locally/regionally, it's a win for the school as well.

SMU, as a private school, recruits nationally and covets that kind of exposure. However, it has to make sense from the TV side as well. It must as we saw in 2014 with arguably the worst team in FBS continuously selected for national broadcasts over other CBSSN G5 schools (MWC/CUSA/AAC). If SMU can keep a national profile, it's a win for the conference (with other regional/national brands in revenue sports) and the school.

I don't see SMU/UNT as overlapping or mutually exclusive. Both can thrive and contribute to their own goals and bring value to their respective conferences. Really, the only readily visible commonality (as an outsider) is location. I guess I just don't see where the success of one hurts the other...from a university (students) or conference (regional vs. national) perspective.
(This post was last modified: 01-05-2015 02:42 PM by gulfcoastgal.)
01-05-2015 11:26 AM
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