(12-19-2014 12:03 AM)timxlydon Wrote:  

(12-18-2014 11:38 PM)VegasHuskie Wrote:  P.J. deserves it. He's a good guy with an impressive resume. He completely turned that program around in a jiffy. I hope he doesn't stay in Kalamazoo very long because the Huskies will soon be chasing WMU if our guy stays in DeKalb.

He's also the same person that brought it crashing down. Cubit wasn't great by any means, but he never went 1-11.

You're kidding yourself if you don't think Cubit had anything to do with that 1-11 season.

We were 7-6 in 2011, 4-8 in 2012... This wasn't a good football team in 2013 regardless of who was the coach, and the program was on a steep downward projectory. We weren't recruiting well and there was a horrible/stale stigma within the program those last few years. Cubit needed to go for a reason, and it was more than what you'll ever see in just the W/L column.

People will associate Fleck with that 1-11 season, but there were a multitude of factors that went into that. Right now, we are 8-4 (with two top MAC recruiting classes) and stock quickly rising. People aren't going to care about that 1-11 season for much longer.

(12-19-2014 11:27 AM)Hoekjeness Wrote:  

(12-19-2014 12:03 AM)timxlydon Wrote:  

(12-18-2014 11:38 PM)VegasHuskie Wrote:  P.J. deserves it. He's a good guy with an impressive resume. He completely turned that program around in a jiffy. I hope he doesn't stay in Kalamazoo very long because the Huskies will soon be chasing WMU if our guy stays in DeKalb.

He's also the same person that brought it crashing down. Cubit wasn't great by any means, but he never went 1-11.

You're kidding yourself if you don't think Cubit had anything to do with that 1-11 season.

We were 7-6 in 2011, 4-8 in 2012... This wasn't a good football team in 2013 regardless of who was the coach, and the program was on a steep downward projectory. We weren't recruiting well and there was a horrible/stale stigma within the program those last few years. Cubit needed to go for a reason, and it was more than what you'll ever see in just the W/L column.

People will associate Fleck with that 1-11 season, but there were a multitude of factors that went into that. Right now, we are 8-4 (with two top MAC recruiting classes) and stock quickly rising. People aren't going to care about that 1-11 season for much longer.

You know what's funny? Bill Cubit took a 1-10 WMU team and made them a 7-4 team in his first year as head coach. Pretty similar to your new saviors career, except Bill didn't **** his pants first. The fact remains the same, Cubit never went 1-11.

Also, congrats on your top MAC recruiting classes. You are in great company with perennial second place Toledo.

(12-19-2014 11:47 AM)timxlydon Wrote:  You know what's funny? Bill Cubit took a 1-10 WMU team and made them a 7-4 team in his first year as head coach.

The difference is that Cubit didn't have the type of recruiting classes Fleck is getting in his first couple of years, nor did he have the facility upgrades and donor support to sustain it.

(12-19-2014 12:00 PM)Hoekjeness Wrote:  

(12-19-2014 11:47 AM)timxlydon Wrote:  You know what's funny? Bill Cubit took a 1-10 WMU team and made them a 7-4 team in his first year as head coach.

The difference is that Cubit didn't have the type of recruiting classes Fleck is getting in his first couple of years, nor did he have the facility upgrades and donor support to sustain it.

Wow, that make's Cubit's first year even more impressive!

Bill Cubit earned every penny this year, he made Beckman $2 million and saved his job for another year. Going 6-6 in the Big 10 with hot garbage is impressive coaching. Don't believe Knute from Kalamazoo could have done that.

(12-19-2014 12:29 PM)NIU05 Wrote:  Bill Cubit earned every penny this year, he made Beckman $2 million and saved his job for another year. Going 6-6 in the Big 10 with hot garbage is impressive coaching. Don't believe Knute from Kalamazoo could have done that.

When you look at how bad the Big 10 was this year, not sure .500 is a big accomplishment. Really bleak future for U of I, they need to part ways with Beckman, you cant win with Beckman

Before this thread turns into a 20 page Cubit vs Fleck debate, let me explain myself. All I was pointing out was that PJ is getting praised for bringing a 1-11 team to 8-4 and rebuilding the program, but it was him who brought the team down to 1-11.

(12-19-2014 09:59 AM)NIUHuskie Wrote:  I see this as a very Cutler-esque contract. What has PJ really done at WMU?

1-11 in 2013
9-15 overall
His wins are against teams that are a combined 34-74
0-4 vs. two top teams in the MAC West (NIU & Toledo)
0-5 vs. P5
1-1 vs. FCS

What has he done to earn this contract? I really hope it comes back to burn WMU.

Hmm. I suspect this is a bit of 'trying to make the story fit your narrative'.

You don't want to see success for Fleck or for WMU, so you throw numbers out to support the 'bad money' theory.

That would be one way to look at things. Another, however, would be to be impressed with the notable jump in wins that turned WMU from one of the worst teams in CFB to playing in a bowl game.

I don't think too many young coaches are held accountable in their first season for taking over a team that was projected to be awful, while installing a brand new system with none of their own recruits.

But if we want to push our theory that this was foolish spending, we will add those atrocious 2013 numbers into the impressive 2014 season to suggest Fleck has been pedestrian in his achievements.

Is that fair? Not for me to decide, but I'm quite sure fans without a rooting interest might have a different opinion then the Huskie fans who post on this board.

(12-19-2014 12:42 PM)VegasHuskie Wrote:  

(12-19-2014 09:59 AM)NIUHuskie Wrote:  I see this as a very Cutler-esque contract. What has PJ really done at WMU?

1-11 in 2013
9-15 overall
His wins are against teams that are a combined 34-74
0-4 vs. two top teams in the MAC West (NIU & Toledo)
0-5 vs. P5
1-1 vs. FCS

What has he done to earn this contract? I really hope it comes back to burn WMU.

Hmm. I suspect this is a bit of 'trying to make the story fit your narrative'.

You don't want to see success for Fleck or for WMU, so you throw numbers out to support the 'bad money' theory.

That would be one way to look at things. Another, however, would be to be impressed with the notable jump in wins that turned WMU from one of the worst teams in CFB to playing in a bowl game.

I don't think too many young coaches are held accountable in their first season for taking over a team that was projected to be awful, while installing a brand new system with none of their own recruits.

But if we want to push our theory that this was foolish spending, we will add those atrocious 2013 numbers into the impressive 2014 season to suggest Fleck has been pedestrian in his achievements.

Is that fair? Not for me to decide, but I'm quite sure fans without a rooting interest might have a different opinion then the Huskie fans who post on this board.

Noone is going to question that PJ needs a lot more seasoning before he is going to be a successful head coach at this level. In a nutshell you could see his greenness shine through vs NIU, he cost his team the game with that decision to go for it. That was about as brutal of a call as you will see from a coach.

(12-19-2014 12:00 PM)Hoekjeness Wrote:  

(12-19-2014 11:47 AM)timxlydon Wrote:  You know what's funny? Bill Cubit took a 1-10 WMU team and made them a 7-4 team in his first year as head coach.

The difference is that Cubit didn't have the type of recruiting classes Fleck is getting in his first couple of years, nor did he have the facility upgrades and donor support to sustain it.

WMU fans have turned into poor man's Toledo. They point at recruiting classes except with even less actual wins.

Recruiting rankings mean dick. If they did, as pointed out by this board on many occasions, Toledo would be heading to Boca after winning there 6th title in the last 8 or 9 years.

The fact is, no matter what WMU fans say, paying a coach who really hasn't accomplished anything in two years, that much money is a risk. It's going to go 2 ways. First he will either earn the money, be successful, and then move onto a P5 program in the next 1-2 years, or second he will not live up to the hype and WMU is left holding a contact that will look absolutely terrible.

WMU has to be hoping for the first option, with the understanding he won't stick around if he takes WMU to the next level.

(12-19-2014 12:43 PM)MaddDawgz02 Wrote:  

(12-19-2014 12:42 PM)VegasHuskie Wrote:  

(12-19-2014 09:59 AM)NIUHuskie Wrote:  I see this as a very Cutler-esque contract. What has PJ really done at WMU?

1-11 in 2013
9-15 overall
His wins are against teams that are a combined 34-74
0-4 vs. two top teams in the MAC West (NIU & Toledo)
0-5 vs. P5
1-1 vs. FCS

What has he done to earn this contract? I really hope it comes back to burn WMU.

Hmm. I suspect this is a bit of 'trying to make the story fit your narrative'.

You don't want to see success for Fleck or for WMU, so you throw numbers out to support the 'bad money' theory.

That would be one way to look at things. Another, however, would be to be impressed with the notable jump in wins that turned WMU from one of the worst teams in CFB to playing in a bowl game.

I don't think too many young coaches are held accountable in their first season for taking over a team that was projected to be awful, while installing a brand new system with none of their own recruits.

But if we want to push our theory that this was foolish spending, we will add those atrocious 2013 numbers into the impressive 2014 season to suggest Fleck has been pedestrian in his achievements.

Is that fair? Not for me to decide, but I'm quite sure fans without a rooting interest might have a different opinion then the Huskie fans who post on this board.

Noone is going to question that PJ needs a lot more seasoning before he is going to be a successful head coach at this level.

Quote: In a nutshell you could see his greenness shine through vs NIU, he cost his team the game with that decision to go for it. That was about as brutal of a call as you will see from a coach.

Now you are going to hang him out to dry for making an aggressive call that didn't work? I've seen a lot of highly successful coaches make aggressive calls - sometimes they work, sometimes they don't.

In that very same game, your beloved NIU coach made an equally questionable call by being non-aggressive and punting on his opponents 31 yard line which washed away all Huskie momentum.

It's silly to nit-pick in game decisions because all coaches are forced to choose forks in the road which sometimes lead to dead ends. Was the fourth and one call from Fleck egregiously bad? I'm not sure, because if they made it, and they had been pounding NIU all day up to that point, I think most who watched the game would have felt that might have been it for NIU in that game.

I have seen stadiums stand up and boo when the punting or field goal units come on the field. I have been one of those doing the booing. I would bet you have, too, MadDawg. Fans generally don't like it when their coaches get conservative, yet we blast them, too, when they get aggressive unsuccessfully. It's a precarious road.

"I don't think too many young coaches are held accountable in their first season for taking over a team that was projected to be awful, while installing a brand new system with none of their own recruits."

They weren't projected to be awful in 2013, that's the point.

(12-19-2014 12:37 PM)timxlydon Wrote:  Before this thread turns into a 20 page Cubit vs Fleck debate, let me explain myself. All I was pointing out was that PJ is getting praised for bringing a 1-11 team to 8-4 and rebuilding the program, but it was him who brought the team down to 1-11.

And I am disagreeing with your statement.

That's like saying Rod Carey was 100% responsible for NIU playing in the Orange Bowl just because he coached it.

(12-19-2014 01:28 PM)17Huskies Wrote:  "I don't think too many young coaches are held accountable in their first season for taking over a team that was projected to be awful, while installing a brand new system with none of their own recruits."

They weren't projected to be awful in 2013, that's the point.

Yes we were. We lost 2 players who made NFL rosters, plus our entire offensive line. Many had us pegged at 3-4 wins at best. And that was before we lost more than 15 guys to injury -- most of whom were 1st and 2nd team players.

See sub-headline in this piece:

http://espn.go.com/college-football/bowl...g-together

NIU & Toledo might have something to say about this.

(12-19-2014 03:37 PM)BarsemaBone2 Wrote:  See sub-headline in this piece:

http://espn.go.com/college-football/bowl...g-together

NIU & Toledo might have something to say about this.

Have I ever mentioned how much I hate ESPN?

Feel free to use this link: http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/mailbag/...-notre-dam
To contact the blogger who wrote this article for ESPN.

(12-19-2014 03:43 PM)DogPoundNorth Wrote:  

(12-19-2014 03:37 PM)BarsemaBone2 Wrote:  See sub-headline in this piece:

http://espn.go.com/college-football/bowl...g-together

NIU & Toledo might have something to say about this.

Have I ever mentioned how much I hate ESPN?

Feel free to use this link: http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/mailbag/...-notre-dam
To contact the blogger who wrote this article for ESPN.

How can you be that dumb. Look at the standings before you write an article...

(12-19-2014 03:47 PM)NIUSox10 Wrote:  

(12-19-2014 03:43 PM)DogPoundNorth Wrote:  

(12-19-2014 03:37 PM)BarsemaBone2 Wrote:  See sub-headline in this piece:

http://espn.go.com/college-football/bowl...g-together

NIU & Toledo might have something to say about this.

Have I ever mentioned how much I hate ESPN?

Feel free to use this link: http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/mailbag/...-notre-dam
To contact the blogger who wrote this article for ESPN.

How can you be that dumb. Look at the standings before you write an article...

What's worse to me is that the lead writer on the MAC website praised it on twitter.

Did he even bother to read the article, or is he so smitten with Fleck and his act that he doesn't even bother? He just embarrassed himself and the MAC.

After next year, Fleck will be 0-6 against NIU and Toledo now that's elite in the wrong direction!