(12-18-2014 12:13 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  Profiling is stopping a group of black kids simply because they are black.

Profiling is when a bunch of gringos go to Mexico and they're targeted by the thugs and federales because they think the gringos have money.

(12-18-2014 12:24 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  

(12-18-2014 12:13 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  Profiling is stopping a group of black kids simply because they are black.

Profiling is when a bunch of gringos go to Mexico and they're targeted by the thugs and federales because they think the gringos have money.

Now you're getting it.

(12-18-2014 12:13 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  All of the questions you asked are common sense questions that any good cop would ask themselves before patrolling an area. That isn't profiling.

Profiling is stopping a group of black kids simply because they are black.

That is YOUR definition, but it is not THE definition of profiling. What you describe wouldn't be effective as a profile.

There are people hired by police and even marketing companies whose JOB is as a profiler. They do not stop a group of black kids just because they are black. There are certainly things that black teens are more likely to do or not do than say white teens... but that would include things like choice of clothes, or sports, or movies or music as well as other things. As a teacher, you would likely profile and not poll your students when you decided to use an example of how to present a problem... using a sports reference or a musical one.

I'm sure it happens, and you may not be talking about these... but the most common times that people accuse cops of the sort of illegal profiling you're describing, it is demonstrably untrue. SOmeone's race MAY be a contributing factor to the decision, but it was not THE factor... or at least you can't deny the reasonable possibility of the other factors (how can you know what someone is thinking)

In an obvious example, Trayvon Martin was black, and there had been burglaries by black people 'not from the neighborhood'.... but he was also unknown to a 'regular' in the neighborhood, and at least according to the 911 call he made (and IMO the guy wasn't smart enough to have 'set this up) he was acting suspicious, just walking around in the rain.

Now it MAY have been illegal profiling like you describe, but it's not the slam dunk that lots of people argued that it was. In the recent cases we've been talking about... the person was doing something contributing to a profile OTHER than 'walking while black' when the cops approached. Again, not saying there haven't been cases of what you describe... just that it isn't nearly as obvious or rampant as it is claimed to be.

Here is the Webster dictionary definition of profiling.

profiling noun
: the act or process of learning information about someone based on what is already known

(12-18-2014 03:33 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  Here is the Webster dictionary definition of profiling.

profiling noun
: the act or process of learning information about someone based on what is already known

So you are honestly suggesting that police should not learn information about people based on what is already known? That it is 'lazy' to assume that someone with an MBA also has an undergraduate degree or that a licensed physician attended and graduated from Medical school?

Websters

Definition of CRAZY
adjective

1 a: full of cracks or flaws : unsound

(12-18-2014 03:46 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(12-18-2014 03:33 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  Here is the Webster dictionary definition of profiling.

profiling noun
: the act or process of learning information about someone based on what is already known

So you are honestly suggesting that police should not learn information about people based on what is already known? That it is 'lazy' to assume that someone with an MBA also has an undergraduate degree or that a licensed physician attended and graduated from Medical school?

Websters

Definition of CRAZY
adjective

1 a: full of cracks or flaws : unsound

As you mentioned. It is acceptable to "profile" a specific kind of person after having received information that may gives officers probably cause.

What I am talking about is when police decide they are going to go to the mall and stop black people to see if they are breaking any laws.

Considering Holder said we shouldn't profile on gender or sexual preference it will make Polce work difficult
For Example:
Dispatcher: Attention all units Be On The Look Out for some one who just robbed the 7-11 on the corner of State and Main
Officer: What is the description of the suspect?
Dispatcher: They are a human being last described as walking on 2 feet.
Officer: Can we get any other description?
Dispatcher: The subject was reportedly wearing clothes.
Officer: What sort of clothing?
Dispatcher: Clothes that are appropriate for a human to be wearing.

Really narrows it down

(12-18-2014 04:16 PM)Brokeback Flamer Wrote:  Considering Holder said we shouldn't profile on gender or sexual preference it will make Polce work difficult
For Example:
Dispatcher: Attention all units Be On The Look Out for some one who just robbed the 7-11 on the corner of State and Main
Officer: What is the description of the suspect?
Dispatcher: They are a human being last described as walking on 2 feet.
Officer: Can we get any other description?
Dispatcher: The subject was reportedly wearing clothes.
Officer: What sort of clothing?
Dispatcher: Clothes that are appropriate for a human to be wearing.

Really narrows it down

Or with a surveillance camera that only makes out dark or fuzzy faces of criminals and on the news they ask if You know this person contact the police at..........., You can't make out features. Digital Cameras are a must. Every protester and Looters facial features in Ferguson shown up even at night. BTW, where are the arrests of Those looters?

(12-18-2014 03:50 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  What I am talking about is when police decide they are going to go to the mall and stop black people to see if they are breaking any laws.

Right... and I agree... and it happens and is wrong and needs to be ended...

I suspect it happens a lot in high crime areas, but obviously that is an additional contributing factor that is often overlooked. Hanging out on the street corner with your friends in a high crime area isn't the same as hanging out on the street corner with your friends in Mr Roger's neighborhood.

Like you, I am 100% against ILLEGAL profiling. I'm just not against profiling. Being black isn't a crime and isn't an indicator of 'bad acts'. Profiling shouldn't be banned because it is effective and efficient. Illegal profiling is neither effective nor efficient. CLAIMS of illegal profiling when that isn't the case are similarly not effective nor efficient. They allow 'bad profilers' cover by muddying the waters.

(12-18-2014 04:38 PM)CardFan1 Wrote:  

(12-18-2014 04:16 PM)Brokeback Flamer Wrote:  Considering Holder said we shouldn't profile on gender or sexual preference it will make Polce work difficult
For Example:
Dispatcher: Attention all units Be On The Look Out for some one who just robbed the 7-11 on the corner of State and Main
Officer: What is the description of the suspect?
Dispatcher: They are a human being last described as walking on 2 feet.
Officer: Can we get any other description?
Dispatcher: The subject was reportedly wearing clothes.
Officer: What sort of clothing?
Dispatcher: Clothes that are appropriate for a human to be wearing.

Really narrows it down

Or with a surveillance camera that only makes out dark or fuzzy faces of criminals and on the news they ask if You know this person contact the police at..........., You can't make out features. Digital Cameras are a must. Every protester and Looters facial features in Ferguson shown up even at night. BTW, where are the arrests of Those looters?

Or as a friend said .....
In light of the UVA and Leena Dunham stories, police will no longer be able to look at only males when a rape is reported

(12-18-2014 04:16 PM)Brokeback Flamer Wrote:  Considering Holder said we shouldn't profile on gender or sexual preference it will make Polce work difficult
For Example:
Dispatcher: Attention all units Be On The Look Out for some one who just robbed the 7-11 on the corner of State and Main
Officer: What is the description of the suspect?
Dispatcher: They are a human being last described as walking on 2 feet.
Officer: Can we get any other description?
Dispatcher: The subject was reportedly wearing clothes.
Officer: What sort of clothing?
Dispatcher: Clothes that are appropriate for a human to be wearing.

Really narrows it down

Again. Profiling after being given information such as description is different.

(12-18-2014 07:04 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(12-18-2014 04:16 PM)Brokeback Flamer Wrote:  Considering Holder said we shouldn't profile on gender or sexual preference it will make Polce work difficult
For Example:
Dispatcher: Attention all units Be On The Look Out for some one who just robbed the 7-11 on the corner of State and Main
Officer: What is the description of the suspect?
Dispatcher: They are a human being last described as walking on 2 feet.
Officer: Can we get any other description?
Dispatcher: The subject was reportedly wearing clothes.
Officer: What sort of clothing?
Dispatcher: Clothes that are appropriate for a human to be wearing.

Really narrows it down

Again. Profiling after being given information such as description is different.

Like Ferguson?

(12-18-2014 07:16 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  

(12-18-2014 07:04 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(12-18-2014 04:16 PM)Brokeback Flamer Wrote:  Considering Holder said we shouldn't profile on gender or sexual preference it will make Polce work difficult
For Example:
Dispatcher: Attention all units Be On The Look Out for some one who just robbed the 7-11 on the corner of State and Main
Officer: What is the description of the suspect?
Dispatcher: They are a human being last described as walking on 2 feet.
Officer: Can we get any other description?
Dispatcher: The subject was reportedly wearing clothes.
Officer: What sort of clothing?
Dispatcher: Clothes that are appropriate for a human to be wearing.

Really narrows it down

Again. Profiling after being given information such as description is different.

Like Ferguson?

Exactly.

(12-18-2014 07:22 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(12-18-2014 07:16 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  

(12-18-2014 07:04 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(12-18-2014 04:16 PM)Brokeback Flamer Wrote:  Considering Holder said we shouldn't profile on gender or sexual preference it will make Polce work difficult
For Example:
Dispatcher: Attention all units Be On The Look Out for some one who just robbed the 7-11 on the corner of State and Main
Officer: What is the description of the suspect?
Dispatcher: They are a human being last described as walking on 2 feet.
Officer: Can we get any other description?
Dispatcher: The subject was reportedly wearing clothes.
Officer: What sort of clothing?
Dispatcher: Clothes that are appropriate for a human to be wearing.

Really narrows it down

Again. Profiling after being given information such as description is different.

Like Ferguson?

Exactly.

So Wilson isn't a racist, he used good policing skills.


DW: "I had heard on the radio that there was a stealing in progress from the Ferguson Market on West Florissant. I head a brief description of black male with a black t-shirt. Um, as I was driving out down Canfield westbound I observed two black males walking in the center of the roadway on the center yellow line."

DW: "I told 'em, 'Hey guys, why don't you walk on the sidewalk.' The first one said, um, 'we're almost to our destination.'"

Wilson told the detective that when he told them to move to a sidewalk, Brown responded with an expletive.

Wilson then noticed that Brown had a handful of cigars, "and that's when it clicked for me," he said, referring to a radio report minutes earlier of a robbery at a nearby convenience store.

http://abc7.com/news/ferguson-shooting-w...ed/410171/

(12-18-2014 07:04 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(12-18-2014 04:16 PM)Brokeback Flamer Wrote:  Considering Holder said we shouldn't profile on gender or sexual preference it will make Polce work difficult
For Example:
Dispatcher: Attention all units Be On The Look Out for some one who just robbed the 7-11 on the corner of State and Main
Officer: What is the description of the suspect?
Dispatcher: They are a human being last described as walking on 2 feet.
Officer: Can we get any other description?
Dispatcher: The subject was reportedly wearing clothes.
Officer: What sort of clothing?
Dispatcher: Clothes that are appropriate for a human to be wearing.

Really narrows it down

Again. Profiling after being given information such as description is different.

So profiling IS ok.

Let's start doing random checks (did we ever stop?).

At the airport, let's let the young Arab man with a sword go by untouched. Then we can shake the Swedish grandmother upside down looking for plastic explosives.

(12-18-2014 10:00 PM)UConn-SMU Wrote:  Let's start doing random checks (did we ever stop?).

At the airport, let's let the young Arab man with a sword go by untouched. Then we can shake the Swedish grandmother upside down looking for plastic explosives.

The way places like Israel do it, they have a set up not dis-similar to most las vegas casinos and they have people listening to every conversation. They measure heart rates, body temperatures, eye movement, even things like pupil dilutions. If you've ever watched 'Person of Interest' on TV, All of these things are part of 'profiling'. Yes, they also look for things like physical characteristics including beards and race, but not those things alone.... but as part of a broader profile. A young mother flying with her child for the first time, sneaking a bottle of formula through the scan might have many of the same anxiety symptoms as a terrorist trying to sneak a bomb through... but a few simple, well designed questions would quickly identify the differences.

In the Ferguson incident, I think it perfectly acceptable for a cop to ask people walking down the middle of the street, even if there isn't another car in the area to move to the sidewalk. If they do, then the cop has added nothing more to the profile. If they debate politely but comply... that is something added to the profile. If they argue and curse, that adds something even greater. Had they literally been walking down the sidewalk and other than being black, not matched any previous description (clothing, physical size, traveling partners) THEN it probably would have been inappropriate to do much more than to simply say hello...

Of course, if the cop simply says hello and one of the guys bolts or suddenly gets extremely nervous... while it COULD merely be that he has learned to be afraid of police, that IS unfortunately an indicator that would allow the cop to ask more questions.

The problem in THIS country is that we are so scared of terms like 'profiling' that instead we strip search little-old-ladies and children 'for the public to see'... even though that isn't at all what is actually happening behind closed doors. They know right away that the little-old-lady isn't a threat, but in order to avoid being ACCUSED of 'profiling' (the definition, not the useful police tool) they put on the show.

We need to completely disassociate the 'websters definition' of profiling from the useful investigative technique of profiling.

I'm fine with the practice.

(12-19-2014 11:44 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  Of course, if the cop simply says hello and one of the guys bolts or suddenly gets extremely nervous... while it COULD merely be that he has learned to be afraid of police, that IS unfortunately an indicator that would allow the cop to ask more questions.

When I was around 12 or 13 years old about 5 or 6 of us used to hang out on a corner quite a bit because there was nothing to do. One day someone came up with the idea that the next time a cop comes by we would all run in different directions just to see what he'd do. Yep, he stopped and asked the store owners if we had done something wrong and then continued to patrol the area all day. Eventually he rounded us up and asked us what was going on. We were doing it to the point where all the cops knew we were just having fun and the running trick no longer worked.

If it smells, acts, and looks like a skunk, it probably is a skunk