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OT: Andrew Hawkins' shirt
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FtLauderdaleRocket Offline
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OT: Andrew Hawkins' shirt
Not sure if anyone else has seen this, but Andrew Hawkins wore a shirt out of the tunnel of Sunday's game that said "Justice for Tamir Rice and John Crawford".

Here is the story.

Watch the video. Andrew is very well spoken.
(This post was last modified: 12-16-2014 11:18 AM by FtLauderdaleRocket.)
12-16-2014 11:12 AM
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H2Oville Rocket Offline
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RE: OT: Andrew Hawkins' shirt
Saw the pics before. Thanks for posting video.
12-16-2014 12:33 PM
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Rocket_Fanatic Offline
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RE: OT: Andrew Hawkins' shirt
Not thrilled with the shirt but I understand his position.

Now his letter, that was well,well written...
12-16-2014 01:04 PM
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eastisbest Offline
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RE: OT: Andrew Hawkins' shirt
Have to pretty much agree with other things posted. Celebrity positions means nothing to me and it usually lessens my sympathies but he at least, stated his case.

Probably doesn't make it difficult for me that the situation with the kid burned by britches. I don't know what the other one's about.

How as a trained cop are you going to roll up that close to someone you believe might have a gun. kid or not AND get out on that side of the car? I can't read that officer's mind to know he wanted to shoot someone but something's not passing smell test. He was either intent or incredibly stupid.
12-16-2014 04:39 PM
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RocketJeff Offline
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RE: OT: Andrew Hawkins' shirt
In both cases, the police shot someone who was brandishing a toy gun. It feels wrong that someone has been killed because they're holding a toy gun, but the police have a split-second to make a decision on whether or not deadly force is necessary. The police don't need more training IMO. What needs to happen is we need to spend less time teaching our 8 year olds how to put a condom on a cucumber and more time teaching them their rights and responsibilities as citizens. They need to understand which police orders they are required to follow and in what ways they are constitutionally able to resist. Apparently it is also necessary to teach all children the proper handling of a fire arm because everyone should know not to point anything that even looks like a gun at someone who definitely has a real one.
12-16-2014 06:59 PM
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MotoRocket Offline
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RE: OT: Andrew Hawkins' shirt
(12-16-2014 04:39 PM)eastisbest Wrote:  Have to pretty much agree with other things posted. Celebrity positions means nothing to me and it usually lessens my sympathies but he at least, stated his case.

Probably doesn't make it difficult for me that the situation with the kid burned by britches. I don't know what the other one's about.

How as a trained cop are you going to roll up that close to someone you believe might have a gun. kid or not AND get out on that side of the car? I can't read that officer's mind to know he wanted to shoot someone but something's not passing smell test. He was either intent or incredibly stupid.

The office that shot the kid wasn't driving the cruiser. He was put into a bad situation by his partner. If you suspect he has a gun - then you have to put the car between the officer that is able to unholster his gun and get out to give orders to make the situation safe. seems like they should have stopped 30 - 40 feet away with the squad car facing him - allowing the officer to get out and use the door as a shield. It would also allow the other officer to get out and use the door in the same manner. If he is suspected of having a gun, why would you pull up right on top of him?

After than happened, he had little choice but to shoot first. That is the real tragedy - an ounce of common sense and no one would have died.
12-16-2014 07:23 PM
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eastisbest Offline
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RE: OT: Andrew Hawkins' shirt
Sorry to disagree RJ: but no amount of time teaching that 12 year old his rights and responsibilities was going to save his life.

Did you see the video of the event? The car rolled up within feet of the kid, the officer got out on that near side of the car and shot. This whole thing took maybe a few seconds.

No, I'm not a cop. Not trained. But what common sense or training would tell them to stop that close to what they've been told was an armed kid? Who would expect an adult to react predictably given an unexpected confrontation, let alone a 12 year old? At the best, I cannot see how there's not a training issue here.
12-16-2014 07:26 PM
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RocketJeff Offline
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RE: OT: Andrew Hawkins' shirt
(12-16-2014 07:26 PM)eastisbest Wrote:  Sorry to disagree RJ: but no amount of time teaching that 12 year old his rights and responsibilities was going to save his life.

Did you see the video of the event? The car rolled up within feet of the kid, the officer got out on that near side of the car and shot. This whole thing took maybe a few seconds.

No, I'm not a cop. Not trained. But what common sense or training would tell them to stop that close to what they've been told was an armed kid? Who would expect an adult to react predictably given an unexpected confrontation, let alone a 12 year old? At the best, I cannot see how there's not a training issue here.

No I did not see the video and I won't. I just don't care to watch a 12 year old boy get killed - just not my idea of cool. If the video showed the police pulling up on the child, pulling out their pistols and opening up on him, I don't understand how a grand jury wouldn't indite. That would be straight-up murder. I was of the understanding that they had told him to halt and the boy then pulled the bb gun out of his waistband. If that is the case, a fire arms course would have taught the boy not to do that. In every other case that's been in the news lately, everyone of the suspects would be alive today if they had complied with the lawful orders of the police. Even the guy who was selling loosies in NY would be alive - although i do think the cops could have handled that one better.
12-16-2014 07:41 PM
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eastisbest Offline
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RE: OT: Andrew Hawkins' shirt
Boggling my mind RJ. A 12 year old's only chance of survival was a fire arms course so he can carry a nerf gun? Are we going to mandate those in hind-sight? If I scream a command at you, it's unexpected, do you think you're going to respond accurately? Do we have to train all out kids to hit the floor when they see blue? The new cold war? The kid might just as well have been going to his belt to toss the toy on the ground. He had NO time.

They say jury duty is an American's responsibility. I'm not so sure watching that video shouldn't be.

Though he didn't outright say it, if you take my description of the video on faith, Moto I think is agreeing with me, there's at best a training issue here. At worst, he flat out murdered that kid. Well, I don't know the technical definition of murder so something worse than a training issue.

The other casualty, IMO, is credibility. When that Union Chief got up and started defending.... he just told any perp who is REALLY armed, might as well start shooting because otherwise you're dead. The UC should have, imo and I wish our TPD would also, just got up and said, "due process.... blah, blah, blah.."

My concern beyond what happened to that kid was that the Union response set up every cop every where.
12-16-2014 08:09 PM
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RocketJeff Offline
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RE: OT: Andrew Hawkins' shirt
(12-16-2014 08:09 PM)eastisbest Wrote:  Boggling my mind RJ. A 12 year old's only chance of survival was a fire arms course so he can carry a nerf gun?
Not his only chance of survival, but his best chance by learning not to point something that looks like a pistol at a cop. Since these rogue cops just pulled up and shot the kid without even giving him a chance - at least according to your interpretation of the vid - it doesn't apply. If somebody comes out of nowhere and shoots me dead a self defense course wouldn't help.
[Image: ?type=1]
Quote:Are we going to mandate those in hind-sight? If I scream a command at you, it's unexpected, do you think you're going to respond accurately? Do we have to train all out kids to hit the floor when they see blue? The new cold war?
When I was younger I was pulled over and as soon as I stopped my car I opened the door. I knew that was a mistake so I did the only thing I could think of and stuck my hands out the door. as soon as the cop started walking up to me I apologized and said i was just nervous and if he wanted i would either shut my door or get out of the car. I think if people learn their rights and responsibilities, they are more likely to respect the law and less likely to get themselves in fatal situations with the police.
Quote:The kid might just as well have been going to his belt to toss the toy on the ground. He had NO time.
That's my point about training our children to know their rights and responsibilities. If the gun were real and the child had been drawing it to kill the cop and the cop had assumed "he's just a kid. It's just a toy" then the cop would be dead. I can't help but wonder what Hawkin's t-shirt would have said then. And frankly I whole-heartedly support Hawkin's expression of opinion.

Quote:They say jury duty is an American's responsibility. I'm not so sure watching that video shouldn't be.

Though he didn't outright say it, if you take my description of the video on faith, Moto I think is agreeing with me, there's at best a training issue here. At worst, he flat out murdered that kid. Well, I don't know the technical definition of murder so something worse than a training issue.

The other casualty, IMO, is credibility. When that Union Chief got up and started defending.... he just told any perp who is REALLY armed, might as well start shooting because otherwise you're dead. The UC should have, imo and I wish our TPD would also, just got up and said, "due process.... blah, blah, blah.."

My concern beyond what happened to that kid was that the Union response set up every cop every where.

I don't need to see the video. My opinion isn't meant to be specific to this situation but a more general reference to recent events. How can learning your rights and responsibilities or the proper handling of a firearm should you come into possession of one be a bad thing?
(This post was last modified: 12-16-2014 09:07 PM by RocketJeff.)
12-16-2014 09:05 PM
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H2Oville Rocket Offline
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RE: OT: Andrew Hawkins' shirt
(12-16-2014 08:09 PM)eastisbest Wrote:  Boggling my mind RJ. A 12 year old's only chance of survival was a fire arms course so he can carry a nerf gun? Are we going to mandate those in hind-sight? If I scream a command at you, it's unexpected, do you think you're going to respond accurately? Do we have to train all out kids to hit the floor when they see blue? The new cold war? The kid might just as well have been going to his belt to toss the toy on the ground. He had NO time.

They say jury duty is an American's responsibility. I'm not so sure watching that video shouldn't be.

Though he didn't outright say it, if you take my description of the video on faith, Moto I think is agreeing with me, there's at best a training issue here. At worst, he flat out murdered that kid. Well, I don't know the technical definition of murder so something worse than a training issue.

This.
12-16-2014 11:13 PM
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eastisbest Offline
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RE: OT: Andrew Hawkins' shirt
(12-16-2014 09:05 PM)RocketJeff Wrote:  I don't need to see the video. My opinion isn't meant to be specific to this situation but a more general reference to recent events. How can learning your rights and responsibilities or the proper handling of a firearm should you come into possession of one be a bad thing?

On the general perspective I suppose we merge close to the same opinion but what I saw (or think I saw) on that video, I'd in no way lump what happened in Cleveland in with other recent or historical events between Police and community that have brought national attention.

Working with people is going to always be unpredictable and yes education is the way to reduce that unpredictability but training is how you reduce, inhibit and avoid the consequences of it.

At the best, there has to be said to have been a serious training (and union response) issue in Cleveland. I could never stand that as acceptable response to an unknown situation. It led to only one possible outcome.

The video isn't "gory" but yes you know you are watching a kid die. If you say education is the way to train proper response to Police, can you tell me why THAT video shouldn't be part of our (hence your) education and part of Police training?

Can you tell I'm 03-pissed?
12-17-2014 03:40 AM
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Rocket Pirate Offline
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RE: OT: Andrew Hawkins' shirt
I think Andrew represented himself and the Browns very well in this situation. He had a very well thought out reasoning and expressed it very clearly when so many people were wanting him to say something ignorant and/or controversial after the media firestorm.

And east is spot-on (like usual) in this thread.
12-20-2014 12:13 PM
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Toledo Football 1st Offline
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RE: OT: Andrew Hawkins' shirt
(12-16-2014 06:59 PM)RocketJeff Wrote:  In both cases, the police shot someone who was brandishing a toy gun. It feels wrong that someone has been killed because they're holding a toy gun, but the police have a split-second to make a decision on whether or not deadly force is necessary. The police don't need more training IMO. What needs to happen is we need to spend less time teaching our 8 year olds how to put a condom on a cucumber and more time teaching them their rights and responsibilities as citizens. They need to understand which police orders they are required to follow and in what ways they are constitutionally able to resist. Apparently it is also necessary to teach all children the proper handling of a fire arm because everyone should know not to point anything that even looks like a gun at someone who definitely has a real one.

This.

Except for the "toy" part. An airsoft is not a toy.
12-20-2014 11:37 PM
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