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what if we invest all the football money to academy.
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junrice Offline
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Post: #1
what if we invest all the football money to academy.
Why so many of us need a good football program?

lots of school like chicago, princeton, mit, they have no football program, but doing well.

how if stop football program and invest all subsidy to other academy field, say build first class law school?


sorry for my naive question, I am not america native, a Chinese got degree from Rice.
12-12-2014 04:11 PM
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Hambone10 Offline
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RE: what if we invest all the football money to academy.
(12-12-2014 04:11 PM)junrice Wrote:  Why so many of us need a good football program?

lots of school like chicago, princeton, mit, they have no football program, but doing well.

how if stop football program and invest all subsidy to other academy field, say build first class law school?


sorry for my naive question, I am not america native, a Chinese got degree from Rice.

No problem, Jun.

1) Because there are already lots of Universities that do what you describe. We wouldn't be as unique. This was a decision made 100 years ago and in some ways, it would violate 'who we are' to decide that athletics was no longer important. Take all of the large state schools out of the top 100 Universities... Then take all of those who don't play 1-A sports. It's a very short list.

2) Spending 20mm/yr (what we spend net of revenues) on a law school probably wouldn't provide us with the same national exposure as we get spending $20mm on all of our athletics combined, with MOST of that being scholarships (going back to the University) anyway. Also, We don't need more lawyers in the world, lol. A Med school was going to cost us $1byn up front, and at least numerous tens of millions per year after that. It would have undoubtedly been big exposure, but at a MASSIVE cost.

3) and somewhat related to 1... Competitive College Sports is part of the Rice Experience. Now it may not be one that you took advantage of or valued, but it IS part of Rice.

I guess my question 'back' would be, why does it have to be an 'or'?

I don't think we would get more notoriety, much less the 'college experience' out of a $20mm/yr investment, including full scholarships for 300 students from that same investment in another department. Maybe we would, but remember that having college sports is POTENTIALLY a positive for all 5000 students and 50,000 alumni... while a 20mm investment in a law school is primarily only a positive for those who graduate in law. I don't think many students or alums would go watch mock trial competition.
(This post was last modified: 12-12-2014 04:35 PM by Hambone10.)
12-12-2014 04:20 PM
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07owl Offline
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Post: #3
RE: what if we invest all the football money to academy.
(12-12-2014 04:20 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  
(12-12-2014 04:11 PM)junrice Wrote:  Why so many of us need a good football program?

lots of school like chicago, princeton, mit, they have no football program, but doing well.

how if stop football program and invest all subsidy to other academy field, say build first class law school?


sorry for my naive question, I am not america native, a Chinese got degree from Rice.

No problem, Jun.

1) Because there are already lots of Universities that do what you describe. We wouldn't be as unique. This was a decision made 100 years ago and in some ways, it would violate 'who we are' to decide that athletics was no longer important. Take all of the large state schools out of the top 100 Universities... Then take all of those who don't play 1-A sports. It's a very short list.

2) Spending 20mm/yr (what we spend net of revenues) on a law school probably wouldn't provide us with the same national exposure as we get spending $20mm on all of our athletics combined, with MOST of that being scholarships (going back to the University) anyway. Also, We don't need more lawyers in the world, lol. A Med school was going to cost us $1byn up front, and at least numerous tens of millions per year after that. It would have undoubtedly been big exposure, but at a MASSIVE cost.

3) and somewhat related to 1... Competitive College Sports is part of the Rice Experience. Now it may not be one that you took advantage of or valued, but it IS part of Rice.

Also, it's not like Rice is hurting for money
12-12-2014 04:32 PM
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Antarius Offline
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RE: what if we invest all the football money to academy.
(12-12-2014 04:20 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  3) and somewhat related to 1... Competitive College Sports is part of the Rice Experience. Now it may not be one that you took advantage of or valued, but it IS part of Rice.

To some people, but these days athletics isn't a big part of the Rice experience. Look around any sports game and see how few students and young alumni show up. It is sad that I cannot convince a single person I know from my year to show up at a MBB game - and there are people that care about basketball as a sport a whole lot more than I do.

Rice Football in many ways is a slightly more well known KTRU. If it were to go on the chopping block, there would be some unhappy people but the vast majority of people simply wouldn't care.

To me, the potential upside of marketing athletics is my main reason for supporting it (leaving out my personal feelings about liking to watch and support Rice). But that is contingent on doing it properly and not being around for the sake of being around.
12-12-2014 04:49 PM
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At Ease Offline
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RE: what if we invest all the football money to academy.
(12-12-2014 04:11 PM)junrice Wrote:  Why so many of us need a good football program?

lots of school like chicago, princeton, mit, they have no football program, but doing well.

how if stop football program and invest all subsidy to other academy field, say build first class law school?


sorry for my naive question, I am not america native, a Chinese got degree from Rice.

It's a valuable part of the college experience enjoyed by two dozen students, four or five Saturdays each year.

For now the university apparently tolerates the lost $$ for the benefits having the program affords. As a Rice and football fan, I am glad. But if those costs continue to increase, while the benefits remain stagnant, which appears to be the current trajectory, I'd guess there will be some push in coming years to invest that money in more sensible fashions. And I wonder if that isn't a factor in why EZF funding has come so slowly.
(This post was last modified: 12-12-2014 05:24 PM by At Ease.)
12-12-2014 05:23 PM
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waltgreenberg Offline
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RE: what if we invest all the football money to academy.
(12-12-2014 04:49 PM)Antarius Wrote:  
(12-12-2014 04:20 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  3) and somewhat related to 1... Competitive College Sports is part of the Rice Experience. Now it may not be one that you took advantage of or valued, but it IS part of Rice.

To some people, but these days athletics isn't a big part of the Rice experience. Look around any sports game and see how few students and young alumni show up. It is sad that I cannot convince a single person I know from my year to show up at a MBB game - and there are people that care about basketball as a sport a whole lot more than I do.

Rice Football in many ways is a slightly more well known KTRU. If it were to go on the chopping block, there would be some unhappy people but the vast majority of people simply wouldn't care.

To me, the potential upside of marketing athletics is my main reason for supporting it (leaving out my personal feelings about liking to watch and support Rice). But that is contingent on doing it properly and not being around for the sake of being around.

Per the bold statement above, that is simply not true; especially for the alumni base. Whether you like it or not, competitive D-1 college athletics is what creates the lasting bond with alumni. Without it, annual gifts would decline precipitously, and we already lag well behind our peer group in percentage giving annually (which has, in turn, hurt our USN&W Report ranking).
12-12-2014 05:37 PM
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75src Offline
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RE: what if we invest all the football money to academy.
Football programs

Princeton D1 FCS Ivy League
Chicago D3
MIT D3

They have football, but at a lower level than Rice. It might still be considered whether Rice needs to stay in a G5 conference if we can not ultimately make it to a P5 conference.

quote='junrice' pid='11536985' dateline='1418418676']
Why so many of us need a good football program?

lots of school like chicago, princeton, mit, they have no football program, but doing well.

how if stop football program and invest all subsidy to other academy field, say build first class law school?


sorry for my naive question, I am not america native, a Chinese got degree from Rice.
[/quote]
12-12-2014 06:10 PM
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MemOwl Offline
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Post: #8
RE: what if we invest all the football money to academy.
MIT went unbeaten this year and won a first round playoff game.

Two thoughts

1. If Rice were in New England it wouldn't need to have Div 1 sports

2. If Rice were in New England, it wouldn't be Rice.
12-12-2014 06:27 PM
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Ricefootballnet Offline
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RE: what if we invest all the football money to academy.
(12-12-2014 06:27 PM)MemOwl Wrote:  MIT went unbeaten this year and won a first round playoff game.

Two thoughts

1. If Rice were in New England it wouldn't need to have Div 1 sports

2. If Rice were in New England, it wouldn't be Rice.

This.....
12-12-2014 07:52 PM
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owl95 Offline
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RE: what if we invest all the football money to academy.
A major part of how good Rice is as a school is how many students apply to attend. Without athletics, and with our now very expensive tuition, in this part of the country, with a fading academic reputation, it's hard to envision a future where we even stay in the top 25 without doing something else major as an institution that is not even on the horizon. Application figures will not go up, and in fact have declined slightly over the years since I matriculated. As Walt, said, we already have trouble with alumni giving/participation, I think the University can see that go nearly non-existent without D1 athletics.

For that matter, with the international students, especially those who go back home, what sort of alumni participation can even be expected from them?
(This post was last modified: 12-12-2014 09:32 PM by owl95.)
12-12-2014 09:31 PM
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S.A. Owl Offline
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Post: #11
what if we invest all the football money to academy.
(12-12-2014 09:31 PM)owl95 Wrote:  Application figures will not go up, and in fact have declined slightly over the years since I matriculated.

Applications to Rice have skyrocketed, approximately doubling over the past 6-7 years. There was a 15% increase from 2013 to 2014, when there were 17,700. Getting people to apply is not a problem.
12-13-2014 12:29 AM
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Post: #12
RE: what if we invest all the football money to academy.
(12-13-2014 12:29 AM)S.A. Owl Wrote:  
(12-12-2014 09:31 PM)owl95 Wrote:  Application figures will not go up, and in fact have declined slightly over the years since I matriculated.

Applications to Rice have skyrocketed, approximately doubling over the past 6-7 years. There was a 15% increase from 2013 to 2014, when there were 17,700. Getting people to apply is not a problem.

On the other hand, TCU and Baylor have seen their applications increase dramatically, only since they committed to big $$ sports and attained notable on the field success. I doubt that would have happened on a purely academic basis. And they are plowing their football revenues back into academic facilities to allow substantial growth in enrollment. When we visited Baylor with my daughter several years ago the tour leader showed us one really nice building that had recently been completed but was only half full. All they needed were more students and to hire more professors. (Of course we could not have sent her there with the tuition as it is, but she didn't want to go to a big school anyway.) Now there's a model for you. People will spend big bucks to achieve athletic notoriety, but not directly on boring academics.
(This post was last modified: 12-13-2014 10:16 AM by WeatherfordOwl.)
12-13-2014 10:14 AM
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owl95 Offline
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Post: #13
RE: what if we invest all the football money to academy.
(12-13-2014 12:29 AM)S.A. Owl Wrote:  
(12-12-2014 09:31 PM)owl95 Wrote:  Application figures will not go up, and in fact have declined slightly over the years since I matriculated.

Applications to Rice have skyrocketed, approximately doubling over the past 6-7 years. There was a 15% increase from 2013 to 2014, when there were 17,700. Getting people to apply is not a problem.

I am a bit out of date. I looked into some historical figures, and our applicant numbers had been in slight decline until about 2007. Our acceptance rate at one point had reached nearly 25%! Does anyone know why the applications have increased?
12-13-2014 01:42 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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RE: what if we invest all the football money to academy.
(12-13-2014 01:42 PM)owl95 Wrote:  
(12-13-2014 12:29 AM)S.A. Owl Wrote:  
(12-12-2014 09:31 PM)owl95 Wrote:  Application figures will not go up, and in fact have declined slightly over the years since I matriculated.
Applications to Rice have skyrocketed, approximately doubling over the past 6-7 years. There was a 15% increase from 2013 to 2014, when there were 17,700. Getting people to apply is not a problem.
I am a bit out of date. I looked into some historical figures, and our applicant numbers had been in slight decline until about 2007. Our acceptance rate at one point had reached nearly 25%! Does anyone know why the applications have increased?

Hmm, we went to a bowl in 2006, won a bowl in 2008, won another bowl in 2012, and will have gone to bowls in 2013 and 2014. And baseball went to Omaha in 2006-07-08.

Maybe correlation means causation, maybe not, but interesting.

One thing about the TCU and Baylor numbers is that they focus more on Texas, and I would expect athletic success to have a much greater impact on Texas students due to the culture here. Probably not as big a deal outside Texas, and as our focus tends more toward out-of-state and international students, the impact on our numbers probably declines. But athletic success would probably still increase the number of Texas applicants. Then again, Texans would overall probably be inclined to stay in state rather than go out of state, which would increase the percentage of those accepted who actually matriculate.
(This post was last modified: 12-13-2014 02:39 PM by Owl 69/70/75.)
12-13-2014 01:57 PM
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ausowl Offline
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RE: what if we invest all the football money to academy.
(12-13-2014 01:42 PM)owl95 Wrote:  
(12-13-2014 12:29 AM)S.A. Owl Wrote:  
(12-12-2014 09:31 PM)owl95 Wrote:  Application figures will not go up, and in fact have declined slightly over the years since I matriculated.

Applications to Rice have skyrocketed, approximately doubling over the past 6-7 years. There was a 15% increase from 2013 to 2014, when there were 17,700. Getting people to apply is not a problem.

I am a bit out of date. I looked into some historical figures, and our applicant numbers had been in slight decline until about 2007. Our acceptance rate at one point had reached nearly 25%! Does anyone know why the applications have increased?

See this NYTimes article college applicants hedge bets
12-13-2014 01:59 PM
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Post: #16
RE: what if we invest all the football money to academy.
While Rice does have a sizable endowment, I'd posit it doesn't really have "plenty" of money. From what I remember from looking at the numbers a few years ago, Rice draws a higher percentage of its endowment to fund operating expenses than pretty much any school in the country - especially among our peer institutions.

So unless we are investing better than our peers (no reason to imagine why we would), we either have to raise more money than the others or accept a relatively lower growth rate in the endowment. Which is somewhat (note: I said somewhat) comparable to drawing down your 401K while you are still investing in it and comparing bank accounts with the your neighbors who aren't.

That's one of the reasons they grew the student body by 1,000. More classes and more facilities were/are being added (think how many more types of classes - dozens of new areas of study in both the liberal arts and sciences - that there are now than there were 30 years ago) and more bodies and accompanying tuition were needed to fill them.
12-13-2014 02:23 PM
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mebehutchi Offline
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Post: #17
RE: what if we invest all the football money to academy.
I think it's almost unfair to categorize the deficit as an athletics deficit. There is a strong body of evidence to suggest that multiple decades of administrations up to and including this one have exhibited more than enough negligence to manage our way from a position of some power to a position of nearly none. The deficit is the resulting burden of this mismanagement. They cut the legs off the program and now wonder why it can't run. There's also a body of evidence to suggest that this is not far off from how most of the U is run. With any spending acumen we have plenty of money.
12-13-2014 05:27 PM
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owl95 Offline
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RE: what if we invest all the football money to academy.
(12-13-2014 05:27 PM)mebehutchi Wrote:  I think it's almost unfair to categorize the deficit as an athletics deficit. There is a strong body of evidence to suggest that multiple decades of administrations up to and including this one have exhibited more than enough negligence to manage our way from a position of some power to a position of nearly none. The deficit is the resulting burden of this mismanagement. They cut the legs off the program and now wonder why it can't run. There's also a body of evidence to suggest that this is not far off from how most of the U is run. With any spending acumen we have plenty of money.

Regardless of the methods or causes, our endowment growth has not kept up with our peers, along with many other aspects of our University(including athletics). Gotta keep Rice, Rice, right? 05-stirthepot
12-13-2014 05:57 PM
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ChicagoOwl (BS '07) Offline
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RE: what if we invest all the football money to academy.
(12-13-2014 01:42 PM)owl95 Wrote:  
(12-13-2014 12:29 AM)S.A. Owl Wrote:  
(12-12-2014 09:31 PM)owl95 Wrote:  Application figures will not go up, and in fact have declined slightly over the years since I matriculated.

Applications to Rice have skyrocketed, approximately doubling over the past 6-7 years. There was a 15% increase from 2013 to 2014, when there were 17,700. Getting people to apply is not a problem.

I am a bit out of date. I looked into some historical figures, and our applicant numbers had been in slight decline until about 2007. Our acceptance rate at one point had reached nearly 25%! Does anyone know why the applications have increased?

Applications have increased across the board and, unfortunately, they've increased at peer institutions more quickly than at ours.
12-13-2014 06:15 PM
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tramile12 Offline
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RE: what if we invest all the football money to academy.
(12-12-2014 04:49 PM)Antarius Wrote:  
(12-12-2014 04:20 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  3) and somewhat related to 1... Competitive College Sports is part of the Rice Experience. Now it may not be one that you took advantage of or valued, but it IS part of Rice.

To some people, but these days athletics isn't a big part of the Rice experience. Look around any sports game and see how few students and young alumni show up. It is sad that I cannot convince a single person I know from my year to show up at a MBB game - and there are people that care about basketball as a sport a whole lot more than I do.

Rice Football in many ways is a slightly more well known KTRU. If it were to go on the chopping block, there would be some unhappy people but the vast majority of people simply wouldn't care.

To me, the potential upside of marketing athletics is my main reason for supporting it (leaving out my personal feelings about liking to watch and support Rice). But that is contingent on doing it properly and not being around for the sake of being around.

Totally disagree with this. Rice Football is slightly more well known that KTRU? Are you being serious? The reason there is such a decline in interest from students is because many of our students are international (foreign) students, and have no interest in American sports. Every year Rice holds and International clinic to try to get these foreigners involved. These kids are here to get an education, and no more.... Going to a Rice football game for your average Chinese Rice student is just not done. I say foreign students, but I find it is more prevalent amongst the Asian student population. And we've got ALOT of them.
12-13-2014 08:04 PM
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