Terry, I feel your pain!

(12-11-2014 11:56 AM)TerryD Wrote:  

(12-11-2014 09:20 AM)Lou_C Wrote:  I don't think ND will get antsy. They haven't had many teams in the last couple decades that would have had to worry about it.

However, I do think they're going to think about it. People are talking about not having the extra game...the bigger issue is that they won't be a conference champion. That hasn't even come up. According to the committee emphasizing conference champions, they're going to lose out any tie to a conference champion. They're going to have to be clearly better than several conference champions. It's definitely a higher hurdle.

I do wonder if over time though, if that higher hurdle, combined with having virtually nothing below the playoffs to play for, is going to weaken their resolve on independence. There will always be supporters like TerryD, for which independence is it's own reward, and Notre Dame football is bigger than trophies. I get that and respect that.

But I really wonder, for the people making the decisions and paying the bills, and for the coaches and players that are required for the program, that the bar for success is just too high. That's why coaches love divisions, they love co-champions, they love conference titles. It gives you something to play for, it gives you something to get a bonus for, it goes on your resume, it keeps the wolves at bay.

Is there a point at which the administration says "The bar for the national title is incredibly high for anyone. And for us, it's even higher than everyone else. We've GOT to be able to give these fans something short of that, and coaches something short of that, that represents a successful season. We need the fans and players to feel they are in the mix every year."

I know for a wide swath of ND fans, playing for the Gipper, the tradition, the spirit of independence and Our Lady is enough. They will continue to support Notre Dame football because it is Notre Dame football. But is that still the majority of fans? For how long will it be? Is it still enough for players? At what point are Notre Dame fans and supporters as bad as every other fan base with their impatience and unreasonableness? At that point, is the playoffs or bust mentality simply too much pressure?

Maybe it takes another generation. But I think times have changed, conference titles have gotten more important, and a fine season is no longer it's own reward, and eventually that may catch up with Notre Dame.

It could be, but I sure hope that I am dead before anything like that happens. (I am 57).

As I stated on the Syracuse board, I lost much interest in ND basketball after it joined the Big East in 1995. I was a much bigger fan in the late Sixties, Seventies, Eighties and early Nineties than I am today.

I feel that playing in a conference diminishes ND athletics. I just don't like the idea of conferences.

It will mean almost nothing to me for ND football to win a division or conference title. That will hold little value for me.

It will mean much more to me if ND wins a national championship in football as an independent than as a full conference member.

In the former, it would be ND going against the grain, overcoming the higher odds and doing something nobody else has figured out how to do. Doing it by going its own way. That would be extremely satisfying to me.

In the latter, it would be doing it just like everyone else. It would not bring the same amount of enjoyment to me.

IF ND football joins a conference, I will likely have a diminished interest in that program than I do now and have for fifty years.

Joining a conference means a surrender by ND to me. It means turning your back on 127 years of going your own way and the men who made it happen.

Yep. I knew you felt that way. And I respect it.

The question is, how much longer is that a majority view. How much longer is "mediocre the Notre Dame way" going to outweigh "Elite the 21st century way".

But maybe more importantly, how much longer can you sell that to coaches and fans. That mentality means you are looking for the kind of special coach that just doesn't exist. I know you would rather fail with a guy that buys in to that than succeed with a guy that doesn't...but eventually that's not going to fly.

I think Notre Dame will always have appeal to a college coach that is looking for a 2 year stint as a springboard to the NFL. ND will be a good job for that. But for a true college coach, a ten year+ guy? I think he takes one look at your vision and knows he'd be crazy to sign onto that (a la Urban Meyer).

It may not be in the next 30 years. You've got a lot of years left, and boosters never get too old to send money, quite the opposite in fact. The oldest boosters have the most money to make their voice heard.

But I would almost bet that there is at least a little anxiety among Notre Dame's leadership about the divide between your vision, and what is practical in modern day.

That said, I always think about Notre Dame independence like I do social security. The people in charge know it's not ultimately sustainable, but they know it's political suicide to do anything to change it. So you kick the can 5, 6, hopefully 10 years down so it's somebody else's problem and you don't have blood on your hands.

(12-11-2014 03:33 PM)Lou_C Wrote:  That said, I always think about Notre Dame independence like I do social security. The people in charge know it's not ultimately sustainable, but they know it's political suicide to do anything to change it. So you kick the can 5, 6, hopefully 10 years down so it's somebody else's problem and you don't have blood on your hands.

Interesting take, as always.

Cheers,
Neil