WMU Broncos

Hello There, Guest! (LoginRegister)

Post Reply 
Ayn Rand
Author Message
brovol Offline
Heisman
*

Posts: 5,947
Joined: Nov 2007
Reputation: 181
I Root For: WMU/ARMY
Location:
Post: #21
RE: Ayn Rand
Rands philosophies are almost exactly the same as our founding fathers. Neither were antagonistic to government in general. Both would have government to be extremely limited in scope and power, and really only strong enough to protect individual rights. Objectivism is a little more philosophical, but it is consistent with the maxims that our country was founded upon. Rand came from a comunist country, and our founding fathers dealt with the king of England. Both had a perspective which is largely lost on media fed modern Americans.

The government was always supposed to stay out of the way of our economy. And never designed to be a creator of jobs, or provider to the people. The favorite and most respected Democrat presidents of all time would be appauled at what out national government has become. Except perhaps FDR, who stared the trend, which BTW was continued by republicans at almost the same frequency as Democrats.

Honestly, as I said before, Galt's speach says it all.
12-08-2014 07:35 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
ESSSS Offline
All American
*

Posts: 2,707
Joined: Sep 2005
Reputation: 38
I Root For:
Location:
Post: #22
RE: Ayn Rand
Quote:Each student pays roughly $900 to support WMU athletics, in other words if you choose to go to Western you're forced to pay out of your tuition dollars to support the athletic program.

I'm not sure why you chose this example.

And I don't know what point you are trying to make.

But if a student "choses" to attend WMU, by definition he/she hasn't been "forced" to do anything.
12-08-2014 07:43 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Dirty Ernie Offline
Heisman
*

Posts: 5,955
Joined: Feb 2007
Reputation: 81
I Root For: WMU
Location: Paw Paw
Post: #23
RE: Ayn Rand
For the most part, I suspect most folks are anti-coercion on the face of it.

But the devil is in the details. Do we want coal emissions? Do we want to be told whether or not we can have an abortion? Who says we can't smoke weed? Should apartment buildings have fire codes?

The original question was redistribution of income. My own view is, it makes a lot of sense when approached logically, you can explain why much of the redistribution is beneficial. But the feel of it can be very impersonal and coercive.

I get warm fuzziness when I help my kids with something or donate to the food bank. I don't get those same feelings when filling out my fed tax return. Logically I know I'm helping fund many good and worthy things, but emotionally I feel ripped off.
12-08-2014 08:11 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
brovol Offline
Heisman
*

Posts: 5,947
Joined: Nov 2007
Reputation: 181
I Root For: WMU/ARMY
Location:
Post: #24
RE: Ayn Rand
Redistribution is socialism. It is immoral in the same way as stealing from your neighbors garage. Just because the government says some thing is OK, doesn't mean it is.
12-08-2014 09:05 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
brovol Offline
Heisman
*

Posts: 5,947
Joined: Nov 2007
Reputation: 181
I Root For: WMU/ARMY
Location:
Post: #25
RE: Ayn Rand
(12-08-2014 08:11 AM)Dirty Ernie Wrote:  For the most part, I suspect most folks are anti-coercion on the face of it.

But the devil is in the details. Do we want coal emissions? Do we want to be told whether or not we can have an abortion? Who says we can't smoke weed? Should apartment buildings have fire codes?

The original question was redistribution of income. My own view is, it makes a lot of sense when approached logically, you can explain why much of the redistribution is beneficial. But the feel of it can be very impersonal and coercive.

I get warm fuzziness when I help my kids with something or donate to the food bank. I don't get those same feelings when filling out my fed tax return. Logically I know I'm helping fund many good and worthy things, but emotionally I feel ripped off.

Charity is a great thing. Humans have and instinct to be caring and helpful to others, and we are rewarded with those warm fuzzys when we do. But charaty is charity. Paying taxes is not charity. It is being forced under the threat of incarceration to give your property to an entity who you may not trust or agree with, to do things you may find to be morally and legally wrong. Now don't get me wrong. I'm not suggesting that I am an anarchist, or against government or taxes. There is a purpost for both. We just have gone so far beyond the scope of what is acceptable that the majority of Americans now believe it is what government is about, and now we actually have a huge voter class of people Dependant of the government, to the extent that Presidential candidates know they need to either cater to that dependency or figure a way to appease that group enough to mitigate its effect on the election. This is wrong to have basically two classes; workers or self providers, and those who the providers support. What's worse is that it perpetuates a lack of production, and consequently a poor economy.
12-08-2014 09:21 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Chipdip2 Offline
Heisman
*

Posts: 9,663
Joined: May 2007
Reputation: 64
I Root For: America
Location: Planet Earth
Post: #26
RE: Ayn Rand
At some point the wealth transfer went from a way to get people through tough times by providing basic necessities, to a life style that is a cut above what you can make as an entry level employee in the workforce.

Once that line was crossed the incentive to become a productive member of society ended. In turn those entitlements garner votes, and the vicious cycle began.

I'm not against a transfer of wealth, but just like every well meaning idea that government has, it seems to always grow in stature. At what point do you say, enough is enough?

Will the EPA ever believe we have low enough emissions?
Will Feminists ever believe they have equal rights?
Will minorities ever believe the playing field is perfectly level?
Will poverty ever be eradicated in the eyes of politicians?

None of these issues will ever be solved because the powers that be make a living off from a perpetual crisis.

Futhermore, this striving for a quality of life for all is totally relative. Our version of poverty (shelter, car, microwave, TV, cell phone) is West Africa's version of a utopia.
(This post was last modified: 12-08-2014 04:26 PM by Chipdip2.)
12-08-2014 04:21 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
BCBronco Offline
All American
*

Posts: 4,627
Joined: Jan 2007
Reputation: 58
I Root For: WMU
Location: Michigan
Post: #27
RE: Ayn Rand
(12-08-2014 07:43 AM)ESSSS Wrote:  
Quote:Each student pays roughly $900 to support WMU athletics, in other words if you choose to go to Western you're forced to pay out of your tuition dollars to support the athletic program.

I'm not sure why you chose this example.

And I don't know what point you are trying to make.

But if a student "choses" to attend WMU, by definition he/she hasn't been "forced" to do anything.

Nonetheless, WMU athletics is not self supporting. Our athletic programs are subsidized by taking from tuition paying students and redistributed. True, no one has to attend WMU, but no one has to choose to live in America either.

Quote:"Some of these things, like those endowment efforts and PBS I very much appreciate and like what they do in many cases, but I just think they have to stand on their own," he said in the interview
Mitt Romney
.



Quote:You know, like you do in your own household. Pay your bills on time, don't spend more than you take in,
Dip


Quote:WMU runs 10th largest deficit in 1-A

WOW. All the MAC schools are well represented, Michigan MAC schools clock in at:

8-EMU
10-WMU
22-CMU
Charm


I think we all agree with Dip and his common sense and responsible position, many agree with Romney, some like UAB, looked at the data provided by Charm and acted.

WMU athletic programs do not self support, and are given a form of "welfare" since general fund monies are redistributed to football to cover their operating loss.

In a purer capitalistic orientation, only profit making college based athletic departments like Texas, UM and Ohio State would survive, and those like WMU would not.

I guess its not socialism if we like it. The question is, like Romney advocates, should WMU and other subsidized athletics/football programs "have to stand on their own?" If that position is good for PBS and NPR why not football? I'm pretty certain I know what Ayn Rand would say.
(This post was last modified: 12-08-2014 05:23 PM by BCBronco.)
12-08-2014 05:21 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
ESSSS Offline
All American
*

Posts: 2,707
Joined: Sep 2005
Reputation: 38
I Root For:
Location:
Post: #28
RE: Ayn Rand
Quote:Nonetheless, WMU athletics is not self supporting. Our athletic programs are subsidized by taking from tuition paying students and redistributed.

True, but irrelevant.

Once again you seem to miss the point.

It is not possible (or necessary) to forcibly take from someone that which they have already freely agreed to pay.

It isn't that hard.

Quote:True, no one has to attend WMU, but no one has to choose to live in America either.

True, and relevant.

Any idea what an expatriation tax is?

What do you think that happens to US citizens who want to leave and choose not to pay it?

You're making my point for me.
(This post was last modified: 12-08-2014 07:11 PM by ESSSS.)
12-08-2014 06:48 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
ESSSS Offline
All American
*

Posts: 2,707
Joined: Sep 2005
Reputation: 38
I Root For:
Location:
Post: #29
RE: Ayn Rand
Quote:For the most part, I suspect most folks are anti-coercion on the face of it.

I disagree.

I think that most folks have no problem with the concept of using force to coerce others.

Quote:I get warm fuzziness when I help my kids with something or donate to the food bank. I don't get those same feelings when filling out my fed tax return.

How do you feel about having the right to tell others what they HAVE TO DO with their money?
(This post was last modified: 12-08-2014 06:56 PM by ESSSS.)
12-08-2014 06:55 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
BCBronco Offline
All American
*

Posts: 4,627
Joined: Jan 2007
Reputation: 58
I Root For: WMU
Location: Michigan
Post: #30
RE: Ayn Rand
^^Regardless of how it's framed, the football program, and other athletic programs at WMU, are not self-supporting, they are losing money. Unless they're paying their own way, and they're not, they are on subsidy, aka "welfare" for football, just like PBS, NPR and poor people. It's redistribution of resources, its socialism, but no one wants to admit that because they like football, but not safety net programs.
(This post was last modified: 12-08-2014 07:35 PM by BCBronco.)
12-08-2014 07:33 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Chipdip2 Offline
Heisman
*

Posts: 9,663
Joined: May 2007
Reputation: 64
I Root For: America
Location: Planet Earth
Post: #31
RE: Ayn Rand
(12-08-2014 07:33 PM)BCBronco Wrote:  ^^Regardless of how it's framed, the football program, and other athletic programs at WMU, are not self-supporting, they are losing money. Unless they're paying their own way, and they're not, they are on subsidy, aka "welfare" for football, just like PBS, NPR and poor people. It's redistribution of resources, its socialism, but no one wants to admit that because they like football, but not safety net programs.

No, it's a total choice to come to WMU and pay their athletic fees. Some opt to go to KVCC to avoid those fees for a few years.

When I send 28% of my income to DC, 13 1/2 % of my income to the general fund in DC (as part of the Social Security ponsy scheme), along with the 40 cents a gallon on gas I send them, as well as various fees hidden on my electric, cell, and internet bills, I get no say in where that money goes.

I'd prefer it doesn't go to grants to studying Desert Piggmy Snails, but I get no say in that. I have no other option than to send them the money or face jail time. When you attend WMU and agree to the athletic fee, you are making a free choice. If I choose to go to Saginaw Valley instead they won't put me in jail for it.
12-08-2014 07:56 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Dirty Ernie Offline
Heisman
*

Posts: 5,955
Joined: Feb 2007
Reputation: 81
I Root For: WMU
Location: Paw Paw
Post: #32
RE: Ayn Rand
Death and taxes. Just take a deep breath and enjoy life.
12-08-2014 09:40 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
georgia_tech_swagger Offline
Res publica non dominetur
*

Posts: 51,393
Joined: Feb 2002
Reputation: 2017
I Root For: GT, USCU, FU, WYO
Location: Upstate, SC

SkunkworksFolding@NCAAbbsNCAAbbs LUGCrappies
Post: #33
RE: Ayn Rand
Not gonna lie ... this news gave me a semi.

HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE Atlas Shrugged fan.
12-09-2014 03:21 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
BCBronco Offline
All American
*

Posts: 4,627
Joined: Jan 2007
Reputation: 58
I Root For: WMU
Location: Michigan
Post: #34
RE: Ayn Rand
Bottom line: does the Western football program pay its own way? Can it exist without outside help? Does it generate enough revenue to cover expenses? Would it exist in the real world as a standalone business?
12-09-2014 09:13 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
BCBronco Offline
All American
*

Posts: 4,627
Joined: Jan 2007
Reputation: 58
I Root For: WMU
Location: Michigan
Post: #35
RE: Ayn Rand
(12-08-2014 07:56 PM)Chipdip2 Wrote:  
(12-08-2014 07:33 PM)BCBronco Wrote:  ^^Regardless of how it's framed, the football program, and other athletic programs at WMU, are not self-supporting, they are losing money. Unless they're paying their own way, and they're not, they are on subsidy, aka "welfare" for football, just like PBS, NPR and poor people. It's redistribution of resources, its socialism, but no one wants to admit that because they like football, but not safety net programs.

No, it's a total choice to come to WMU and pay their athletic fees. Some opt to go to KVCC to avoid those fees for a few years.

When I send 28% of my income to DC, 13 1/2 % of my income to the general fund in DC (as part of the Social Security ponsy scheme), along with the 40 cents a gallon on gas I send them, as well as various fees hidden on my electric, cell, and internet bills, I get no say in where that money goes.

I'd prefer it doesn't go to grants to studying Desert Piggmy Snails, but I get no say in that. I have no other option than to send them the money or face jail time. When you attend WMU and agree to the athletic fee, you are making a free choice. If I choose to go to Saginaw Valley instead they won't put me in jail for it.

Just for the record, when a student pays his or her tuition, they have no say in where it goes either. It's not exactly a directed donor fund.
12-09-2014 09:16 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
brovol Offline
Heisman
*

Posts: 5,947
Joined: Nov 2007
Reputation: 181
I Root For: WMU/ARMY
Location:
Post: #36
RE: Ayn Rand
(12-09-2014 09:16 AM)BCBronco Wrote:  
(12-08-2014 07:56 PM)Chipdip2 Wrote:  
(12-08-2014 07:33 PM)BCBronco Wrote:  ^^Regardless of how it's framed, the football program, and other athletic programs at WMU, are not self-supporting, they are losing money. Unless they're paying their own way, and they're not, they are on subsidy, aka "welfare" for football, just like PBS, NPR and poor people. It's redistribution of resources, its socialism, but no one wants to admit that because they like football, but not safety net programs.

No, it's a total choice to come to WMU and pay their athletic fees. Some opt to go to KVCC to avoid those fees for a few years.

When I send 28% of my income to DC, 13 1/2 % of my income to the general fund in DC (as part of the Social Security ponsy scheme), along with the 40 cents a gallon on gas I send them, as well as various fees hidden on my electric, cell, and internet bills, I get no say in where that money goes.

I'd prefer it doesn't go to grants to studying Desert Piggmy Snails, but I get no say in that. I have no other option than to send them the money or face jail time. When you attend WMU and agree to the athletic fee, you are making a free choice. If I choose to go to Saginaw Valley instead they won't put me in jail for it.

Just for the record, when a student pays his or her tuition, they have no say in where it goes either. It's not exactly a directed donor fund.

But its a voluntary act to go to wmu. Not compulsary.
12-09-2014 10:59 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
BCBronco Offline
All American
*

Posts: 4,627
Joined: Jan 2007
Reputation: 58
I Root For: WMU
Location: Michigan
Post: #37
RE: Ayn Rand
Is the football self supporting?
12-09-2014 11:15 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
MileHighBronco Offline
Legend
*

Posts: 34,302
Joined: Mar 2005
Reputation: 1727
I Root For: Broncos
Location: Forgotten Time Zone
Post: #38
RE: Ayn Rand
(12-08-2014 06:51 AM)ESSSS Wrote:  
Quote:This whole redistribution of wealth scenario is complex.

Yes, it is.

But I don't think that the underlying premise behind Objectivism is hard to understand.

IMHO....the underlying theme behind Rand's writings is non-coercion.

That it is wrong to initiate force against other person.


Everything else "Randian" flows from that simple statement.

And what is government other than force/coercion? If you don't follow their rules/regulations (laws), they use force on you.

Good post, ESSS
12-09-2014 09:18 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply 




User(s) browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)


Copyright © 2002-2024 Collegiate Sports Nation Bulletin Board System (CSNbbs), All Rights Reserved.
CSNbbs is an independent fan site and is in no way affiliated to the NCAA or any of the schools and conferences it represents.
This site monetizes links. FTC Disclosure.
We allow third-party companies to serve ads and/or collect certain anonymous information when you visit our web site. These companies may use non-personally identifiable information (e.g., click stream information, browser type, time and date, subject of advertisements clicked or scrolled over) during your visits to this and other Web sites in order to provide advertisements about goods and services likely to be of greater interest to you. These companies typically use a cookie or third party web beacon to collect this information. To learn more about this behavioral advertising practice or to opt-out of this type of advertising, you can visit http://www.networkadvertising.org.
Powered By MyBB, © 2002-2024 MyBB Group.