As is being described right now, would have happened in 2010 IF Pastner didn't take the job. There wasn't a single credible candidate in sight.

For starters, the new guy probably doesn't land Elliot Williams, so 2010 is a disaster. Then you are looking at a nearly bare cupboard for 2011 and you have to hope that whoever is hired can get the ball rolling to get the program back on track.

So maybe we are headed for disaster. I don't think we are, and I'm going to wait and see how the season plays out. The bottom line is that no matter what happens; Pastner allowed us to remain a nationally relevant program for 9 years; from 2006 to 2014.

IF Pastner leaves after this season; we will have the infrastructure and the brand continuity needed to attract a decent candidate. If we go down that path, hopefully, the hot assistant or mid major coach with one deep run under his belt, will be able to get us where we need to go.

fair enough.

no person is bigger than the program. the program survived Mo Iba, Wayne Yates, Tic Price, and the departure of Cal. this program will survive no matter if Coach Pastner can turn it around or not

"death" is hyperbole.

Ancient history.

Just win, baby.

(12-03-2014 04:03 PM)OneShiningMoment Wrote:  no person is bigger than the program. the program survived Mo Iba, Wayne Yates, Tic Price, and the departure of Cal. this program will survive no matter if Coach Pastner can turn it around or not

Actually, it has been proven time and time again, that one person IS bigger than the program. Bartow, Kirk, Finch and Cal...all bigger than the program.

The program with Vanatta, Elhers, Yates, Iba, Tic, Johnny Jones (not fair, I know), and Larry in failing health...not half as big as many here think it is.

Quote:this program will survive no matter if Coach Pastner can turn it around or not

Very true; but it has gone through a lot of tough times for extended periods of time.

Almost all good programs have a solid support system - the right or wrong coach can either elevate or sink it. UCLA and Indiana are prime examples of this.

Memphis is a top 20 program in every way except conference affiliation and maybe TV money.

Everything else is in place for a competent head coach to do great things.

(12-03-2014 03:58 PM)Stammers Wrote:  As is being described right now, would have happened in 2010 IF Pastner didn't take the job. There wasn't a single credible candidate in sight.

Not true. Morevoer, (in a vacuum) Josh wasn't a "credible" candidate.

If you are asserting that Josh was a "credible" hire than Memphis would have made a "credible hire" by essentially hiring any 3rd level assistant or better who was known for recruiting. Period. End of discussion.

(12-03-2014 03:58 PM)Stammers Wrote:  For starters, the new guy probably doesn't land Elliot Williams, so 2010 is a disaster.

Based upon what? Your opinion? IF Elliot was going to leave Duke for his mother in Memphis, then his options were extremely limited. Why wouldn't he have played for, say, Derek Kellog or Tony Barbee?

(12-03-2014 03:58 PM)Stammers Wrote:  Then you are looking at a nearly bare cupboard for 2011 and you have to hope that whoever is hired can get the ball rolling to get the program back on track.

Why would one have been looking at a bare cupboard for 2011? Joe Jackson said he would have come to Memphis if a janitor was the head coach. Cyp, not Josh, got the Bartons, so if Cyp had been picked as the HC then the 2011 class would have been about the same. Who knows if Orton transfers if Cyp is head coach?

(12-03-2014 03:58 PM)Stammers Wrote:  So maybe we are headed for disaster. I don't think we are, and I'm going to wait and see how the season plays out. The bottom line is that no matter what happens; Pastner allowed us to remain a nationally relevant program for 9 years; from 2006 to 2014.

Yes he has. Doesn't mean he was the only one who could have.

(12-03-2014 03:58 PM)Stammers Wrote:  IF Pastner leaves after this season; we will have the infrastructure and the brand continuity needed to attract a decent candidate. If we go down that path, hopefully, the hot assistant or mid major coach with one deep run under his belt, will be able to get us where we need to go.

Fair enough.

(12-03-2014 04:10 PM)Stammers Wrote:  Larry in failing health...not half as big as many here think it is.

You don't have a clue pal. I am old enough to have lived through Larry's tenure and player and coach. Larry Finch IS Memphis Basketball.

DOE

(12-03-2014 04:18 PM)Mick Light Wrote:  

(12-03-2014 04:10 PM)Stammers Wrote:  Larry in failing health...not half as big as many here think it is.

You don't have a clue pal. I am old enough to have lived through Larry's tenure and player and coach. Larry Finch IS Memphis Basketball.

DOE

While I don't particularly like defending Stammers, I believe he was saying that the program wasn't as big as some folks thought/think during all of those coaching tenures and Finch near the end, when he was in failing health.

(12-03-2014 04:15 PM)HoopDreams Wrote:  Almost all good programs have a solid support system - the right or wrong coach can either elevate or sink it. UCLA and Indiana are prime examples of this.

Memphis is a top 20 program in every way except conference affiliation and maybe TV money.

Everything else is in place for a competent head coach to do great things.

UCLA; the most storied program in the NCAA, has gone through bobos like Larry Farmer, Walt Hazard, Jim Harrick and Steve Lavin. Indiana; not far behind, hired Mike Davis, then made a supposedly great hire in Tom Crean, and they still aren't at the level that they should be. Arkansas hired Stan Heath and John Pelphrey, and still haven't turned it around with Mike Anderson.

One, elite programs often aren't able to make home run hires. Two, even when they make hires that are good on paper; they often struggle.

(12-03-2014 04:21 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(12-03-2014 04:15 PM)HoopDreams Wrote:  Almost all good programs have a solid support system - the right or wrong coach can either elevate or sink it. UCLA and Indiana are prime examples of this.

Memphis is a top 20 program in every way except conference affiliation and maybe TV money.

Everything else is in place for a competent head coach to do great things.

UCLA; the most storied program in the NCAA, has gone through bobos like Larry Farmer, Walt Hazard, Jim Harrick and Steve Lavin. Indiana; not far behind, hired Mike Davis, then made a supposedly great hire in Tom Crean, and they still aren't at the level that they should be. Arkansas hired Stan Heath and John Pelphrey, and still haven't turned it around with Mike Anderson.

One, elite programs often aren't able to make home run hires. Two, even when they make hires that are good on paper; they often struggle.

Pretty much what I was saying.

Programs with the support system don't die - you'd have to make a few really "bad" hires in a row - like Clyde Drexler into Tom Penders into James Dickey, etc - AND have a poor support system.

(12-03-2014 04:17 PM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(12-03-2014 03:58 PM)Stammers Wrote:  As is being described right now, would have happened in 2010 IF Pastner didn't take the job. There wasn't a single credible candidate in sight.

Not true. Morevoer, (in a vacuum) Josh wasn't a "credible" candidate.

If you are asserting that Josh was a "credible" hire than Memphis would have made a "credible hire" by essentially hiring any 3rd level assistant or better who was known for recruiting. Period. End of discussion.

(12-03-2014 03:58 PM)Stammers Wrote:  For starters, the new guy probably doesn't land Elliot Williams, so 2010 is a disaster.

Based upon what? Your opinion? IF Elliot was going to leave Duke for his mother in Memphis, then his options were extremely limited. Why wouldn't he have played for, say, Derek Kellog or Tony Barbee?

(12-03-2014 03:58 PM)Stammers Wrote:  Then you are looking at a nearly bare cupboard for 2011 and you have to hope that whoever is hired can get the ball rolling to get the program back on track.

Why would one have been looking at a bare cupboard for 2011? Joe Jackson said he would have come to Memphis if a janitor was the head coach. Cyp, not Josh, got the Bartons, so if Cyp had been picked as the HC then the 2011 class would have been about the same. Who knows if Orton transfers if Cyp is head coach?

(12-03-2014 03:58 PM)Stammers Wrote:  So maybe we are headed for disaster. I don't think we are, and I'm going to wait and see how the season plays out. The bottom line is that no matter what happens; Pastner allowed us to remain a nationally relevant program for 9 years; from 2006 to 2014.

Yes he has. Doesn't mean he was the only one who could have.

(12-03-2014 03:58 PM)Stammers Wrote:  IF Pastner leaves after this season; we will have the infrastructure and the brand continuity needed to attract a decent candidate. If we go down that path, hopefully, the hot assistant or mid major coach with one deep run under his belt, will be able to get us where we need to go.

Fair enough.

Quote:Not true. Morevoer, (in a vacuum) Josh wasn't a "credible" candidate.

If you are asserting that Josh was a "credible" hire than Memphis would have made a "credible hire" by essentially hiring any 3rd level assistant or better who was known for recruiting. Period. End of discussion.

He wasn't a credible hire, but he was the only candidate. This makes the job he did all the more incredible.

Quote:Based upon what? Your opinion? IF Elliot was going to leave Duke for his mother in Memphis, then his options were extremely limited. Why wouldn't he have played for, say, Derek Kellog or Tony Barbee?

He wouldn't have played for Cal. The university didn't hire Kellogg or Barbee, so who cares?

Quote:Why would one have been looking at a bare cupboard for 2011? Joe Jackson said he would have come to Memphis if a janitor was the head coach. Cyp, not Josh, got the Bartons, so if Cyp had been picked as the HC then the 2011 class would have been about the same. Who knows if Orton transfers if Cyp is head coach?

Blah blah blah. The Bartons wouldn't have come if they weren't comfortable with Pastner, and Pastner has recruited just fine no matter who the assistants were. No credit for Pastner for landing Memphis kids, and blame for Pastner when he doesn't land Memphis kids. Typical of you.

Quote:Yes he has. Doesn't mean he was the only one who could have.

There was nobody else, and it is dishonest of anyone to use this crazy argument. We were still being threatened with sanctions, and don't forget, the candidates were being interviewed by RC and Raines.

(12-03-2014 04:18 PM)Mick Light Wrote:  

(12-03-2014 04:10 PM)Stammers Wrote:  Larry in failing health...not half as big as many here think it is.

You don't have a clue pal. I am old enough to have lived through Larry's tenure and player and coach. Larry Finch IS Memphis Basketball.

DOE

I'll assume that this gibberish was intended for someone else. It has nothing to do with anything in this thread.

(12-03-2014 04:26 PM)HoopDreams Wrote:  

(12-03-2014 04:21 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(12-03-2014 04:15 PM)HoopDreams Wrote:  Almost all good programs have a solid support system - the right or wrong coach can either elevate or sink it. UCLA and Indiana are prime examples of this.

Memphis is a top 20 program in every way except conference affiliation and maybe TV money.

Everything else is in place for a competent head coach to do great things.

UCLA; the most storied program in the NCAA, has gone through bobos like Larry Farmer, Walt Hazard, Jim Harrick and Steve Lavin. Indiana; not far behind, hired Mike Davis, then made a supposedly great hire in Tom Crean, and they still aren't at the level that they should be. Arkansas hired Stan Heath and John Pelphrey, and still haven't turned it around with Mike Anderson.

One, elite programs often aren't able to make home run hires. Two, even when they make hires that are good on paper; they often struggle.

Pretty much what I was saying.

Programs with the support system don't die - you'd have to make a few really "bad" hires in a row - like Clyde Drexler into Tom Penders into James Dickey, etc - AND have a poor support system.

Correct; we would be no different than Houston if we hired those three. Arkansas has 1 NCAA tournament win in the last 15 years. Our fanbase is freaking out because we have a rotten basketball team (so far) for the first time in 15 years.

(12-03-2014 04:21 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(12-03-2014 04:15 PM)HoopDreams Wrote:  Almost all good programs have a solid support system - the right or wrong coach can either elevate or sink it. UCLA and Indiana are prime examples of this.

Memphis is a top 20 program in every way except conference affiliation and maybe TV money.

Everything else is in place for a competent head coach to do great things.

UCLA; the most storied program in the NCAA, has gone through bobos like Larry Farmer, Walt Hazard, Jim Harrick and Steve Lavin. Indiana; not far behind, hired Mike Davis, then made a supposedly great hire in Tom Crean, and they still aren't at the level that they should be. Arkansas hired Stan Heath and John Pelphrey, and still haven't turned it around with Mike Anderson.

One, elite programs often aren't able to make home run hires. Two, even when they make hires that are good on paper; they often struggle.

Put Memphis in the Big10 or PAC10 and we would not have had the success we have had. Josh had it easy compared to what these guys had to endure as far as making it to the tourney.

Its not in my nature to freak out because I've seen every major program and every blue blood have disastrous season and look like the joke of the decade.

Although we have had a disastrous start, its not quite on that level.

Josh will right the ship or we will look for a coach who can. I'm good with letting things play out and not having daily meltdowns online and such.

Part of being a hard core fan is understanding that there are good time and bad times. I learned long ago to roll with the punches emotionally. I didn't get to high when we were in the F4 in 2009 and I'm not getting to low now.

(12-03-2014 04:17 PM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(12-03-2014 03:58 PM)Stammers Wrote:  As is being described right now, would have happened in 2010 IF Pastner didn't take the job. There wasn't a single credible candidate in sight.

Not true. Morevoer, (in a vacuum) Josh wasn't a "credible" candidate.

If you are asserting that Josh was a "credible" hire than Memphis would have made a "credible hire" by essentially hiring any 3rd level assistant or better who was known for recruiting. Period. End of discussion.

(12-03-2014 03:58 PM)Stammers Wrote:  For starters, the new guy probably doesn't land Elliot Williams, so 2010 is a disaster.

Based upon what? Your opinion? IF Elliot was going to leave Duke for his mother in Memphis, then his options were extremely limited. Why wouldn't he have played for, say, Derek Kellog or Tony Barbee?

(12-03-2014 03:58 PM)Stammers Wrote:  Then you are looking at a nearly bare cupboard for 2011 and you have to hope that whoever is hired can get the ball rolling to get the program back on track.

Why would one have been looking at a bare cupboard for 2011? Joe Jackson said he would have come to Memphis if a janitor was the head coach. Cyp, not Josh, got the Bartons, so if Cyp had been picked as the HC then the 2011 class would have been about the same. Who knows if Orton transfers if Cyp is head coach?

(12-03-2014 03:58 PM)Stammers Wrote:  So maybe we are headed for disaster. I don't think we are, and I'm going to wait and see how the season plays out. The bottom line is that no matter what happens; Pastner allowed us to remain a nationally relevant program for 9 years; from 2006 to 2014.

Yes he has. Doesn't mean he was the only one who could have.

(12-03-2014 03:58 PM)Stammers Wrote:  IF Pastner leaves after this season; we will have the infrastructure and the brand continuity needed to attract a decent candidate. If we go down that path, hopefully, the hot assistant or mid major coach with one deep run under his belt, will be able to get us where we need to go.

Fair enough.

Very, very good answers Saluki.

My how quickly people forget what really happened.........

(12-03-2014 04:41 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  Put Memphis in the Big10 or PAC10 and we would not have had the success we have had. Josh had it easy compared to what these guys had to endure as far as making it to the tourney.

I don't know.

Put us in those conference and we probably land more blue chip bigs and more top 20 scorers.

So we would have had better teams anyway.

(12-03-2014 04:44 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  

(12-03-2014 04:41 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  Put Memphis in the Big10 or PAC10 and we would not have had the success we have had. Josh had it easy compared to what these guys had to endure as far as making it to the tourney.

I don't know.

Put us in those conference and we probably land more blue chip bigs and more top 20 scorers.

So we would have had better teams anyway.

Put us in those conferences and we wouldn't have had to hire Pastner. If we got into the conference after the hiring and we did land more blue chips, Pastner would have developed them about as good as he has his other "bluechips"