(12-03-2014 12:46 PM)Easterwood Wrote:  

(12-03-2014 12:45 PM)450bench Wrote:  

(12-03-2014 12:41 PM)Tygrys Wrote:  I am convinced under Pastner, the likes of D Rose and Tyreke would be riding the pine because they both looked rough at the beginning of their time here. Heaven knows Pastner does not let guys play through mistakes...

Totally agree. Hell, I can't comprehend why he started Markel at the point guard spot. He's not a point guard.

He's never played PG in life, not at any level

I know it. I'm shocked at some of the decisions Pastner makes. Shocked.
On a positive note, Markel has really matured physically. I wish he'd drive the ball more. He is much a man now. He's going to be a fine player. At the 2 spot, of course.

(12-03-2014 11:54 AM)Brother Bluto Wrote:  

(12-03-2014 11:35 AM)memphissince86 Wrote:  Pookie aint the answer.

Let Kedren play, he's out of shape but the only one that knows how to play PG

He at least has a track record

Why is that? He got us the lead against Baylor then hardly played in the second half

He made a few shots in Baylor game, true. But beyond that I haven't seen any fundamentals that say PG to me.

And Pastner not going to develop it so....

(12-03-2014 12:25 PM)HoopDreams Wrote:  D'Marnier in less than 2 weeks.

#snicker

Run him out there with Kedren, Pookie, and Markell.

4 Kingz part II

(12-03-2014 12:46 PM)Easterwood Wrote:  

(12-03-2014 12:45 PM)450bench Wrote:  

(12-03-2014 12:41 PM)Tygrys Wrote:  I am convinced under Pastner, the likes of D Rose and Tyreke would be riding the pine because they both looked rough at the beginning of their time here. Heaven knows Pastner does not let guys play through mistakes...

Totally agree. Hell, I can't comprehend why he started Markel at the point guard spot. He's not a point guard.

He's never played PG in life, not at any level

Markel clearly couldn't penetrate, wasn't getting anyone else opportunities, isn't a great outside shooter, had 5 turnovers, and was in at the end of the game.

Pookie might have turned it over 7 times, and put up some bad shots, but he would have made a few, would have created chances for others, and would have learned in the process.

The loss was bad enough on its own, but it was a wasted loss.

(12-03-2014 12:51 PM)450bench Wrote:  

(12-03-2014 12:46 PM)Easterwood Wrote:  

(12-03-2014 12:45 PM)450bench Wrote:  

(12-03-2014 12:41 PM)Tygrys Wrote:  I am convinced under Pastner, the likes of D Rose and Tyreke would be riding the pine because they both looked rough at the beginning of their time here. Heaven knows Pastner does not let guys play through mistakes...

Totally agree. Hell, I can't comprehend why he started Markel at the point guard spot. He's not a point guard.

He's never played PG in life, not at any level

I know it. I'm shocked at some of the decisions Pastner makes. Shocked.
On a positive note, Markel has really matured physically. I wish he'd drive the ball more. He is much a man now. He's going to be a fine player. At the 2 spot, of course.

Markel really seems to have a nice floater and mid range game; that hopefully we will see more of as the season progresses.

You guys are missing the biggest flaw in our PG play-pulling up their dribble when they don't have to (which should be very rare). I would guess 10 times in 1st half alone-gave up counting after that. It stops your offense; causes unnecessary time outs, turnovers, etc. Nothing good happens. That is taught to 7-8 year olds. SFA was not trapping enough to cause it either. Destroyed any chance of running a decent offense.

(12-03-2014 12:51 PM)450bench Wrote:  

(12-03-2014 12:46 PM)Easterwood Wrote:  

(12-03-2014 12:45 PM)450bench Wrote:  

(12-03-2014 12:41 PM)Tygrys Wrote:  I am convinced under Pastner, the likes of D Rose and Tyreke would be riding the pine because they both looked rough at the beginning of their time here. Heaven knows Pastner does not let guys play through mistakes...

Totally agree. Hell, I can't comprehend why he started Markel at the point guard spot. He's not a point guard.

He's never played PG in life, not at any level

I know it. I'm shocked at some of the decisions Pastner makes. Shocked.
On a positive note, Markel has really matured physically. I wish he'd drive the ball more. He is much a man now. He's going to be a fine player. At the 2 spot, of course.

You gonna play him in front of Woodson at the 2? Do you play Burrell at the 3 or 2? What to do with King??? Who to run at PG? Play Shaq and AN at same time and hope for no foul trouble? There are just so many question marks...

(12-03-2014 01:44 PM)tigers1125 Wrote:  You guys are missing the biggest flaw in our PG play-pulling up their dribble when they don't have to (which should be very rare). I would guess 10 times in 1st half alone-gave up counting after that. It stops your offense; causes unnecessary time outs, turnovers, etc. Nothing good happens. That is taught to 7-8 year olds. SFA was not trapping enough to cause it either. Destroyed any chance of running a decent offense.

That was an issue I pointed to this summer. Despite having good post players, if you don't have guards that have GROWN UP learning how to effectively get the ball into the post, it doesn't matter.

Recruiting shooting guards who were asked to be scorers isn't the way to go when trying to work inside-out. And you sure as hell can't do a crash course on post entry passing to make it work. It took Joe a solid 2 1/2 years to get competent at entry passing. Not good, just passable.

This isn't going to "fix" itself by late January.

(12-03-2014 01:44 PM)tigers1125 Wrote:  You guys are missing the biggest flaw in our PG play-pulling up their dribble when they don't have to (which should be very rare). I would guess 10 times in 1st half alone-gave up counting after that. It stops your offense; causes unnecessary time outs, turnovers, etc. Nothing good happens. That is taught to 7-8 year olds. SFA was not trapping enough to cause it either. Destroyed any chance of running a decent offense.

^
This. But, not the only problem. Shooting- we can't.
Also, we're lazy on defense. We go under screens-even ball screens.
This leaves the shooter wide open. We do it even when our guy has 2-3 ft. to slide over and stay on the ball.

This is an on going prob; and I'm beginning to believe Josh doesn't even recognize it as a problem.
Not saying he doesn't.

But, it's been a few years now(AND REALLY REALLY BAD THIS YEAR), so why hasn't it been corrected?

HINT: This very thing is what kept Willie Kemp benched and in Cal's doghouse(or 1 thing anyway).

(12-03-2014 12:51 PM)450bench Wrote:  

(12-03-2014 12:46 PM)Easterwood Wrote:  

(12-03-2014 12:45 PM)450bench Wrote:  

(12-03-2014 12:41 PM)Tygrys Wrote:  I am convinced under Pastner, the likes of D Rose and Tyreke would be riding the pine because they both looked rough at the beginning of their time here. Heaven knows Pastner does not let guys play through mistakes...

Totally agree. Hell, I can't comprehend why he started Markel at the point guard spot. He's not a point guard.

He's never played PG in life, not at any level

I know it. I'm shocked at some of the decisions Pastner makes. Shocked.
On a positive note, Markel has really matured physically. I wish he'd drive the ball more. He is much a man now. He's going to be a fine player. At the 2 spot, of course.

We will likely never know the potential of any of these new guys given they are yanked repeatedly with the first & every mistake they make. Using the Rose - Evans analogy, they might both be out of BB right under such a process. And I think JP is sidelines coaching scared & short-sighted. He's not been in a situation where he had to develop anyone. He has always had enough experience on the floor to get by. I still scratch my head over how these recruits or pieces do not fit & JP recruited them all - even the casual observer could see this.

(12-03-2014 01:51 PM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(12-03-2014 01:44 PM)tigers1125 Wrote:  You guys are missing the biggest flaw in our PG play-pulling up their dribble when they don't have to (which should be very rare). I would guess 10 times in 1st half alone-gave up counting after that. It stops your offense; causes unnecessary time outs, turnovers, etc. Nothing good happens. That is taught to 7-8 year olds. SFA was not trapping enough to cause it either. Destroyed any chance of running a decent offense.

That was an issue I pointed to this summer. Despite having good post players, if you don't have guards that have GROWN UP learning how to effectively get the ball into the post, it doesn't matter.

Recruiting shooting guards who were asked to be scorers isn't the way to go when trying to work inside-out. And you sure as hell can't do a crash course on post entry passing to make it work. It took Joe a solid 2 1/2 years to get competent at entry passing. Not good, just passable.

This isn't going to "fix" itself by late January.

(12-03-2014 01:47 PM)TigerBo Wrote:  

(12-03-2014 12:51 PM)450bench Wrote:  

(12-03-2014 12:46 PM)Easterwood Wrote:  

(12-03-2014 12:45 PM)450bench Wrote:  

(12-03-2014 12:41 PM)Tygrys Wrote:  I am convinced under Pastner, the likes of D Rose and Tyreke would be riding the pine because they both looked rough at the beginning of their time here. Heaven knows Pastner does not let guys play through mistakes...

Totally agree. Hell, I can't comprehend why he started Markel at the point guard spot. He's not a point guard.

He's never played PG in life, not at any level

I know it. I'm shocked at some of the decisions Pastner makes. Shocked.
On a positive note, Markel has really matured physically. I wish he'd drive the ball more. He is much a man now. He's going to be a fine player. At the 2 spot, of course.

You gonna play him in front of Woodson at the 2? Do you play Burrell at the 3 or 2? What to do with King??? Who to run at PG? Play Shaq and AN at same time and hope for no foul trouble? There are just so many question marks...

Not to mention who gets shelved when Cunningham comes in. Apparently JP will give him minutes, meaning Markel, Kedren or Pookie will lose a chunk.

IF Iverson ever comes back, will he take Nick's minutes? Or Burrell's?

How did Godfrey average 13 and 9 last year, too?

(12-03-2014 11:49 AM)memphissince86 Wrote:  

(12-03-2014 11:39 AM)MemphisTiger15 Wrote:  

(12-03-2014 11:37 AM)memphissince86 Wrote:  But doesn't matter b/c Pastner subs at 18:30 into the half....

So it won't last

last nite he had to sub b/c Woodson had already fouled twice

He subbed Austin at 18:30 in the 2nd for no apparent reason, but he doesn't let the guys play thru a bad play at all is the point.

I think he subs at every whistle. Literally. Probably trying to make it appear like he knows what he's doing.

Goodness, at this point it should be;

PG - Pookie (let him make freshman mistakes and develop)
SG - Does not matter**
SF - Does not matter**
PF - Nichols
C - Shaq

** It does not matter who you put at this position as they are all pretty well equal at this point. You could make a case for Markel and King in hopes of future development, but Woodson and Burrell will offer just at much in terms of production at this point.

Until King learns he has a right hand for more than one dribble at a time he is going to be severely limited offensively. Markel has not played in a long while and you can tell because he is often hesitant. I believe once he gets back in the flow (late January or so) he will be the obvious choice at SG. Woodson can provide spot up shooting and Burrell is the most athletic of the bunch. They will produce sporadically but I would not count on either for consistent production.

(12-03-2014 01:47 PM)TigerBo Wrote:  

(12-03-2014 12:51 PM)450bench Wrote:  

(12-03-2014 12:46 PM)Easterwood Wrote:  

(12-03-2014 12:45 PM)450bench Wrote:  

(12-03-2014 12:41 PM)Tygrys Wrote:  I am convinced under Pastner, the likes of D Rose and Tyreke would be riding the pine because they both looked rough at the beginning of their time here. Heaven knows Pastner does not let guys play through mistakes...

Totally agree. Hell, I can't comprehend why he started Markel at the point guard spot. He's not a point guard.

He's never played PG in life, not at any level

I know it. I'm shocked at some of the decisions Pastner makes. Shocked.
On a positive note, Markel has really matured physically. I wish he'd drive the ball more. He is much a man now. He's going to be a fine player. At the 2 spot, of course.

You gonna play him in front of Woodson at the 2? Do you play Burrell at the 3 or 2? What to do with King??? Who to run at PG? Play Shaq and AN at same time and hope for no foul trouble? There are just so many question marks...

Kedren, Woodson, Burrell, Austin Shaq
Nick sub at the 4 ONLY
Markel sub at wing
Pookie the only option as backup Pg
Iverson wing/4
Hawkins 4
Godfrey 5

Obviously not all should get minutes but Pastner will sub like hell.

But he's playing King, Markel, Hawkins out of position.

I'm definitely in the Pookie camp right now. Yes, he most definitely has several flaws just like every player and coach on this team. Kedren just doesn't do anything, though. He cannot shoot, he cannot get past any defender, too slow on defense, makes TO (just like Pookie). Pookie is not good either, but after watching every game, he seems to be the best option IMO. Pookie has had his times where he has looked horrific, yes, but also he has shown times where he has shown promise and contributed. I have really only seen Kedren struggle, and never once have I really thought after seeing him play so far that "Man, that was a really nice take to the rim" Or "Man, that was a really good look." Really just all negative from Kedren. Now, if Kedren can get in shape like we've all stated, then things can change. My thought process is go with Pookie and deal with his bonehead passes, picked up dribbles, and lack of recognition on defense and also see the promise and upside that we have seen with him. That at least gives us a glimmer of hope for the future... However, playing Markel at the 1 is something I still don't understand. The man is clearly a 2 and you can't fault him for that. He needs to be playing the 2, whether that means coming off of the bench or starting. I would go with Pookie, Woodson, Burrell, Nichols, and Goodwin. Markel coming off the bench first.

(12-03-2014 01:53 PM)Atlanta Wrote:  

(12-03-2014 12:51 PM)450bench Wrote:  

(12-03-2014 12:46 PM)Easterwood Wrote:  

(12-03-2014 12:45 PM)450bench Wrote:  

(12-03-2014 12:41 PM)Tygrys Wrote:  I am convinced under Pastner, the likes of D Rose and Tyreke would be riding the pine because they both looked rough at the beginning of their time here. Heaven knows Pastner does not let guys play through mistakes...

Totally agree. Hell, I can't comprehend why he started Markel at the point guard spot. He's not a point guard.

He's never played PG in life, not at any level

I know it. I'm shocked at some of the decisions Pastner makes. Shocked.
On a positive note, Markel has really matured physically. I wish he'd drive the ball more. He is much a man now. He's going to be a fine player. At the 2 spot, of course.

We will likely never know the potential of any of these new guys given they are yanked repeatedly with the first & every mistake they make. Using the Rose - Evans analogy, they might both be out of BB right under such a process. And I think JP is sidelines coaching scared & short-sighted. He's not been in a situation where he had to develop anyone. He has always had enough experience on the floor to get by. I still scratch my head over how these recruits or pieces do not fit & JP recruited them all - even the casual observer could see this.

Cal did it to Willie Kemp and he never recovered...

Josh does it to all of his guards...The difference is if you do not make any mistakes you get to play for Josh. Even if you really are not contributing in other ways.

(12-03-2014 01:44 PM)tigers1125 Wrote:  You guys are missing the biggest flaw in our PG play-pulling up their dribble when they don't have to (which should be very rare). I would guess 10 times in 1st half alone-gave up counting after that. It stops your offense; causes unnecessary time outs, turnovers, etc. Nothing good happens. That is taught to 7-8 year olds. SFA was not trapping enough to cause it either. Destroyed any chance of running a decent offense.

This. This is what I yell all game every game. Our guards bring the ball across half court, get pressured a tiny bit, freak out, turn around, back in a few steps, and pick up their dribble well beyond the three point line. Don't even have a chance to start the offense when they aren't confident enough to face up and keep their dribble alive.

(12-03-2014 01:56 PM)BIGDTiger Wrote:  

(12-03-2014 11:49 AM)memphissince86 Wrote:  

(12-03-2014 11:39 AM)MemphisTiger15 Wrote:  

(12-03-2014 11:37 AM)memphissince86 Wrote:  But doesn't matter b/c Pastner subs at 18:30 into the half....

So it won't last

last nite he had to sub b/c Woodson had already fouled twice

He subbed Austin at 18:30 in the 2nd for no apparent reason, but he doesn't let the guys play thru a bad play at all is the point.

I think he subs at every whistle. Literally. Probably trying to make it appear like he knows what he's doing.

The move that annoys me is when you have a player at the scorers table who gets called back because something good happened on the floor. Happens far to often.

(12-03-2014 01:59 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  

(12-03-2014 01:53 PM)Atlanta Wrote:  

(12-03-2014 12:51 PM)450bench Wrote:  

(12-03-2014 12:46 PM)Easterwood Wrote:  

(12-03-2014 12:45 PM)450bench Wrote:  Totally agree. Hell, I can't comprehend why he started Markel at the point guard spot. He's not a point guard.

He's never played PG in life, not at any level

I know it. I'm shocked at some of the decisions Pastner makes. Shocked.
On a positive note, Markel has really matured physically. I wish he'd drive the ball more. He is much a man now. He's going to be a fine player. At the 2 spot, of course.

We will likely never know the potential of any of these new guys given they are yanked repeatedly with the first & every mistake they make. Using the Rose - Evans analogy, they might both be out of BB right under such a process. And I think JP is sidelines coaching scared & short-sighted. He's not been in a situation where he had to develop anyone. He has always had enough experience on the floor to get by. I still scratch my head over how these recruits or pieces do not fit & JP recruited them all - even the casual observer could see this.

Cal did it to Willie Kemp and he never recovered...

Josh does it to all of his guards...The difference is if you do not make any mistakes you get to play for Josh. Even if you really are not contributing in other ways.

And thus why the offense is often stagnant and struggles. They are scared to shoot or be aggressive... However, if they toss the ball around the perimeter and stand there they get to stay in the game.