Quo, I think you are making way to much about semantics, and missing the big point. A four team mini-tournament is a weak substitute for a real national tournament. No doubt the participants all deserve to be in such a national tournament, but other deserving teams - and you could argue equally deserving teams - are arbitrarily left out. Until that's fixed, you still have a mythical national champion.

To be sure, I'm fine with that. I'm just as fine with that as I was when they started waiting until the bowl games to vote for a mythical champion. And I'm just as fine with having more than one team declared mythical national champion in the same year. Because no matter what you do short of an inclusive national tournament, you can only have opinions about who deserves to be called champion, just as we have had for nearly a century. There's simply no getting around that.

I just want to point while I totally disagree with Quo on this, Ken I think you are going too far the other direction, and making my point look bad

(12-04-2014 09:53 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(12-04-2014 07:39 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  Quo I stayed away from this absurd crusade you are on about showing how little you know about the national championship, but seeing as how everything you have posted on this is wrong, and you keep posting, you really need to stop. Give it up. There is a reason NO ONE agrees with you. We understand be difference between a trophy and the actual national championship.

You keep invoking "we" as if the ignorance of a few other posters can cover for you being wrong?

You claim to know what the difference between a "trophy" and an "actual national championship" is but you fail to articulate it. And why? Because in this case it obviously is an UTTERLY NONSENSICAL distinction! What on earth does a trophy with the words "National Championship" on it mean other than it is for the winner of the National Championship?

And how can you explain away this link, which contains these words:

"The College Football Playoff National Championship Trophy presented by Dr Pepper is the ultimate goal of college football teams across the United States. It will be presented on-field to the winner of the College Football Playoff National Championship on January 12, 2015."

http://www.collegefootballplayoff.com/trophy

In the face of this overwhelming evidence, how can you possibly continue to maintain that the CFP isn't hosting a NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP game, the winner of which will get a NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP Trophy, emblematic of winning the NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP of College football?

How can you be this obtuse?

And equally obviously, the AP and Coaches polls are now COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT in this entire process. They can vote whoever they want #1 to their heart's content, of course, just like You or I can, but their vote is no more meaningful than if they voted some team other than the winner of the NCAA basketball tournament the "National Champion" of basketball either. Utterly meaningless.

If the AP were to conduct a poll the day after the NCAA Tournament Final, and vote some team OTHER than the team that just won the tournament as their "AP National Champion", would that meant that college basketball had a "split national championship" that year? Of course not, that would be a ludicrous notion. Laughable. Same thing with football and the CFP.

Why do you continue to deny the obvious?

It's not a national championship. It is the winner of a four-team playoff. Not all deserving teams are invited.

Therefore, it is NOT a national championship

(12-05-2014 01:14 PM)ken d Wrote:  Quo, I think you are making way to much about semantics, and missing the big point. A four team mini-tournament is a weak substitute for a real national tournament. No doubt the participants all deserve to be in such a national tournament, but other deserving teams - and you could argue equally deserving teams - are arbitrarily left out. Until that's fixed, you still have a mythical national champion.

Well, a post ago, you seemed to think the 'semantic' distinction between a "National champion of college basketball" a term you claimed I made up and had nothing to do with the purpose of the NCAA tournament, and "NCAA Division I basketball champion", a term which you said captured the real purpose of the NCAA tournament, was important.

But anyway ... I think i now get it: You're not actually claiming the crazy stuff Adcorbett is claiming - stuff like "the CFP doesn't award a national championship, the polls do", you acknowledge that the CFP does exist, that it does conduct a 4-team playoff, the purpose of which is to crown the CFP Champion, which it believes is the National Champion of FBS football.

You just think that their 4-team playoff is such a flawed process -it leaves out too many teams that deserve to play for it- that in your view it cannot be trusted to produce a real, valid "national champion", so you prefer to think of the CFP national championship as still, as in the days of the BCS and before then the polls, "mythical", in the sense that the process leaves us with too much uncertainty as to whether the winner of the CFP National Championship game really is the "true" deserving national champ.

In the same way that if I think the NFL playoffs leave out too many deserving teams, or maybe include too many weak ones, such that I don't trust that the NFL playoffs can be relied on to crown the "true" NFL champion, I might regard the results of the playoffs and the winner of the Super Bowl as a "mythical" pro football champion as well.

Correct?

(12-05-2014 01:48 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(12-05-2014 01:14 PM)ken d Wrote:  Quo, I think you are making way to much about semantics, and missing the big point. A four team mini-tournament is a weak substitute for a real national tournament. No doubt the participants all deserve to be in such a national tournament, but other deserving teams - and you could argue equally deserving teams - are arbitrarily left out. Until that's fixed, you still have a mythical national champion.

Well, a post ago, you seemed to think the 'semantic' distinction between a "National champion of college basketball" a term you claimed I made up and had nothing to do with the purpose of the NCAA tournament, and "NCAA Division I basketball champion", a term which you said captured the real purpose of the NCAA tournament, was important.

But anyway ... I think i now get it: You're not actually claiming the crazy stuff Adcorbett is claiming - stuff like "the CFP doesn't award a national championship, the polls do", you acknowledge that the CFP does exist, that it does conduct a 4-team playoff, the purpose of which is to crown the CFP Champion, which it believes is the National Champion of FBS football.

You just think that their 4-team playoff is such a flawed process -it leaves out too many teams that deserve to play for it- that in your view it cannot be trusted to produce a real, valid "national champion", so you prefer to think of the CFP national championship as still, as in the days of the BCS and before then the polls, "mythical", in the sense that the process leaves us with too much uncertainty as to whether the winner of the CFP National Championship game really is the "true" deserving national champ.

In the same way that if I think the NFL playoffs leave out too many deserving teams, or maybe include too many weak ones, such that I don't trust that the NFL playoffs can be relied on to crown the "true" NFL champion, I might regard the results of the playoffs and the winner of the Super Bowl as a "mythical" pro football champion as well.

Correct?

You had me right up until that NFL crap.

(12-05-2014 02:36 PM)ken d Wrote:  

(12-05-2014 01:48 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(12-05-2014 01:14 PM)ken d Wrote:  Quo, I think you are making way to much about semantics, and missing the big point. A four team mini-tournament is a weak substitute for a real national tournament. No doubt the participants all deserve to be in such a national tournament, but other deserving teams - and you could argue equally deserving teams - are arbitrarily left out. Until that's fixed, you still have a mythical national champion.

Well, a post ago, you seemed to think the 'semantic' distinction between a "National champion of college basketball" a term you claimed I made up and had nothing to do with the purpose of the NCAA tournament, and "NCAA Division I basketball champion", a term which you said captured the real purpose of the NCAA tournament, was important.

But anyway ... I think i now get it: You're not actually claiming the crazy stuff Adcorbett is claiming - stuff like "the CFP doesn't award a national championship, the polls do", you acknowledge that the CFP does exist, that it does conduct a 4-team playoff, the purpose of which is to crown the CFP Champion, which it believes is the National Champion of FBS football.

You just think that their 4-team playoff is such a flawed process -it leaves out too many teams that deserve to play for it- that in your view it cannot be trusted to produce a real, valid "national champion", so you prefer to think of the CFP national championship as still, as in the days of the BCS and before then the polls, "mythical", in the sense that the process leaves us with too much uncertainty as to whether the winner of the CFP National Championship game really is the "true" deserving national champ.

In the same way that if I think the NFL playoffs leave out too many deserving teams, or maybe include too many weak ones, such that I don't trust that the NFL playoffs can be relied on to crown the "true" NFL champion, I might regard the results of the playoffs and the winner of the Super Bowl as a "mythical" pro football champion as well.

Correct?

You had me right up until that NFL crap.

Well OK, fair enough.