I think a lot of people here simply overestimate the Memphis bball program. They are not a college bball blue blood. However, a lot of people here expect the results of a higher rung program.

I started looking through historical results of the NCAA tournament. Memphis is #47 in games played. They are #46 in wins. Memphis has a .500 win percentage in the NCAA tournament.

Here is a list of Final Four appearances:

App. School
18 North Carolina
17 UCLA*
16 Kentucky
15 Duke
14 Kansas
10 Louisville, Ohio State*
8 Indiana, Michigan State
6 Arkansas, Cincinnati, Oklahoma State
5 Connecticut, Florida, Georgetown, Houston, Illinois, Michigan**, Syracuse
4 Arizona, Kansas State, LSU, Oklahoma, UNLV, Utah
3 California, Iowa, Marquette, N.C. State, San Francisco, Texas, Villanova*, Wisconsin
2 Baylor, Bradley, Butler, CCNY, Colorado, Dartmouth, DePaul, Georgia Tech, Holy Cross, La Salle, Maryland, NYU, Oregon State, Providence, Purdue, St. John's, Stanford, Temple, USC, Virginia, West Virginia, Wichita State,
1 Charlotte, Dayton, Drake, Duquesne, Florida State, George Mason, Georgia, Indiana State, Iowa State, Jacksonville, Loyola (IL), Memphis**, Mississippi State, New Mexico State, Notre Dame, Oregon, Penn, Penn State, Pittsburgh, Princeton, Rutgers, Santa Clara, Seattle, Seton Hall, SMU, St. Bonaventure, UTEP, Virginia Commonwealth, Wake Forest, Washington, Washington State, Wyoming

Sure, Memphis had 2 appearances vacated, but those top programs are at a whole different level.

I'd love it if we won the NCAA during my lifetime, but I'm not going to be pissed off every year at whoever is the coach if we lose some games and "only" make it to the NCAA and win a game or two. I wouldn't blame another coach for not wanting to come here. Who would want to deal with a delusional fanbase? It is one thing to have a fanbase that is crazy supportive of the team, and one that calls for you to be fired every time you lose a game.

So much is said about CJP, but we could really blame things on the players. How many top recruits have shown up and then phoned in? You can't blame everything on the coach. Remember how DJ hustled when he was on the court? I know early on Joe had some issues, but the last 2 years he always gave it his all on the court. The coach can try to motivate, but ultimately it falls on the player if they get out their and don't play hard. Maybe we get too many prima donnas in our recruiting classes.

I also don't get some of the arguments. Coach pay? NBA arena? Quality of facilities? TV market? None of these guarantee success. I think it is great that we have those things, but so what? Are we trying to buy a championship?

What is the reasoning to expect, or rather demand, so much more from CJP than what the program has historically done?

24 schools have been to 3 Final Fours or more. As a fan who likes to look at the bright side, take out schools that haven't been very good in the last 20 years (Utah, UNLV, Houston, Cal, Oklahoma, Iowa, San Francisco) and that puts us in the 15-18 range where we belong.

Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah....

(11-28-2014 04:29 PM)Stammers Wrote:  24 schools have been to 3 Final Fours or more. As a fan who likes to look at the bright side, take out schools that haven't been very good in the last 20 years (Utah, UNLV, Houston, Cal, Oklahoma, Iowa, San Francisco) and that puts us in the 15-18 range where we belong.

Yes. I agree.

Throw out all that "vacated" BS. Memphis is in the top 25 or 30 all time in NCAA tournament appearances, wins, and according to the list you posted, there's only 25 schools who've been to more Final 4s. Of that list, Memphis is a better program than LSU, Oklahoma, Houston, Utah, and Kansas State.

No one here or anywhere else believes we are a blue blood, but we're not an Ole Miss or Tennessee either.

"There is a lot of mediocrity being celebrated, and a lot of wonderful stuff being ignored, or Discouraged."

Nobody ever said Memphis was a blue blood. Nobody.

(11-28-2014 04:36 PM)MemTiger90 Wrote:  Nobody ever said Memphis was a blue blood. Nobody.

But the attitude of the miserables suggests otherwise.

I dont think anyone thinks of Memphis as a Blueblood......IMO thats
UK
UCLA
UNC
DUKE
Kansas
IU used to be, but not now...so there is only 5 bluebloods

Thread - dumb? Yes.

(11-28-2014 04:45 PM)NJ1 Wrote:  FYI-- this thread has all the hallmarks of "concern trolling." ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Inte...cern_troll )

Don't take the bait and give the desired reaction. I'd encourage other posters to not become upset by this post. It is technically within the rules, so it stays here-- I encourage us to turn this thread around into rational discussion, if possible.

Delete the thread if you want.

I'm really trying to understand the view of why people expect so much from CJP when he has basically done what the program has historically.

I have never seen anything rational posted here on why he needs to go. The only arguments I have seen are either based around contract amount, facilities, arena, etc. that have no real bearing on success. The generic "he can't coach" isn't helpful either.

Maybe if I was enlightened on why, then I would join the miserables in the displeasure. Until then, I think you all want blue blood results (and now) from a lower rung program.

(11-28-2014 04:44 PM)tiger2000 Wrote:  Thread - dumb? Yes.

Very much so.

(11-28-2014 04:58 PM)John44932 Wrote:  

(11-28-2014 04:45 PM)NJ1 Wrote:  FYI-- this thread has all the hallmarks of "concern trolling." ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Inte...cern_troll )

Don't take the bait and give the desired reaction. I'd encourage other posters to not become upset by this post. It is technically within the rules, so it stays here-- I encourage us to turn this thread around into rational discussion, if possible.

Delete the thread if you want.

I'm really trying to understand the view of why people expect so much from CJP when he has basically done what the program has historically.

I have never seen anything rational posted here on why he needs to go. The only arguments I have seen are either based around contract amount, facilities, arena, etc. that have no real bearing on success. The generic "he can't coach" isn't helpful either.

Maybe if I was enlightened on why, then I would join the miserables in the displeasure. Until then, I think you all want blue blood results (and now) from a lower rung program.

Blue blood - no
Lower rung - no.

No fan would describe their team as "lower rung," even if it were true.

Be gone. Your motives and posts are highly suspect.

(11-28-2014 04:58 PM)John44932 Wrote:  

(11-28-2014 04:45 PM)NJ1 Wrote:  FYI-- this thread has all the hallmarks of "concern trolling." ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Inte...cern_troll )

Don't take the bait and give the desired reaction. I'd encourage other posters to not become upset by this post. It is technically within the rules, so it stays here-- I encourage us to turn this thread around into rational discussion, if possible.

Delete the thread if you want.

I'm really trying to understand the view of why people expect so much from CJP when he has basically done what the program has historically.

I have never seen anything rational posted here on why he needs to go. The only arguments I have seen are either based around contract amount, facilities, arena, etc. that have no real bearing on success. The generic "he can't coach" isn't helpful either.

Maybe if I was enlightened on why, then I would join the miserables in the displeasure. Until then, I think you all want blue blood results (and now) from a lower rung program.

You must not have read many of the threads.
Common reasons for fans feelings Josh isn't a good coach: lack of player development, lack of leadership and motivational skills, no identity, no consistent offensive or defensive scheme, and of course because he doesnt drink, cuss or smoke!

(11-28-2014 05:03 PM)tiger2000 Wrote:  

(11-28-2014 04:58 PM)John44932 Wrote:  

(11-28-2014 04:45 PM)NJ1 Wrote:  FYI-- this thread has all the hallmarks of "concern trolling." ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Inte...cern_troll )

Don't take the bait and give the desired reaction. I'd encourage other posters to not become upset by this post. It is technically within the rules, so it stays here-- I encourage us to turn this thread around into rational discussion, if possible.

Delete the thread if you want.

I'm really trying to understand the view of why people expect so much from CJP when he has basically done what the program has historically.

I have never seen anything rational posted here on why he needs to go. The only arguments I have seen are either based around contract amount, facilities, arena, etc. that have no real bearing on success. The generic "he can't coach" isn't helpful either.

Maybe if I was enlightened on why, then I would join the miserables in the displeasure. Until then, I think you all want blue blood results (and now) from a lower rung program.

Blue blood - no
Lower rung - no.

No fan would describe their team as "lower rung," even if it were true.

Be gone. Your motives and posts are highly suspect.

To clarify, I meant lower rung than a blue blood.

(11-28-2014 05:06 PM)thewood3 Wrote:  

(11-28-2014 04:58 PM)John44932 Wrote:  

(11-28-2014 04:45 PM)NJ1 Wrote:  FYI-- this thread has all the hallmarks of "concern trolling." ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Inte...cern_troll )

Don't take the bait and give the desired reaction. I'd encourage other posters to not become upset by this post. It is technically within the rules, so it stays here-- I encourage us to turn this thread around into rational discussion, if possible.

Delete the thread if you want.

I'm really trying to understand the view of why people expect so much from CJP when he has basically done what the program has historically.

I have never seen anything rational posted here on why he needs to go. The only arguments I have seen are either based around contract amount, facilities, arena, etc. that have no real bearing on success. The generic "he can't coach" isn't helpful either.

Maybe if I was enlightened on why, then I would join the miserables in the displeasure. Until then, I think you all want blue blood results (and now) from a lower rung program.

You must not have read many of the threads.
Common reasons for fans feelings Josh isn't a good coach: lack of player development, lack of leadership and motivational skills, no identity, no consistent offensive or defensive scheme, and of course because he doesnt drink, cuss or smoke!

lack of player development - Then how do you explain people like DJ? I think everyone here would actually agree that DJ really developed at Memphis. I don't see how this falls totally on the coach. If the players don't buy in and work for it, then why should the coach be blamed?

lack of leadership and motivational skills - I think this goes with the above. The players share responsibility here also.

no identity - I'm not following this one.

no consistent offensive or defensive scheme - I'm confused by this sometimes myself. I figure he's still learning and refining though. With the results he has brought though, I think he should be given more time on this.

and of course because he doesnt drink, cuss or smoke! - Haha, maybe that is the real problem.

(11-28-2014 05:19 PM)John44932 Wrote:  

(11-28-2014 05:06 PM)thewood3 Wrote:  

(11-28-2014 04:58 PM)John44932 Wrote:  

(11-28-2014 04:45 PM)NJ1 Wrote:  FYI-- this thread has all the hallmarks of "concern trolling." ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Inte...cern_troll )

Don't take the bait and give the desired reaction. I'd encourage other posters to not become upset by this post. It is technically within the rules, so it stays here-- I encourage us to turn this thread around into rational discussion, if possible.

Delete the thread if you want.

I'm really trying to understand the view of why people expect so much from CJP when he has basically done what the program has historically.

I have never seen anything rational posted here on why he needs to go. The only arguments I have seen are either based around contract amount, facilities, arena, etc. that have no real bearing on success. The generic "he can't coach" isn't helpful either.

Maybe if I was enlightened on why, then I would join the miserables in the displeasure. Until then, I think you all want blue blood results (and now) from a lower rung program.

You must not have read many of the threads.
Common reasons for fans feelings Josh isn't a good coach: lack of player development, lack of leadership and motivational skills, no identity, no consistent offensive or defensive scheme, and of course because he doesnt drink, cuss or smoke!

lack of player development - Then how do you explain people like DJ? I think everyone here would actually agree that DJ really developed at Memphis. I don't see how this falls totally on the coach. If the players don't buy in and work for it, then why should the coach be blamed?

lack of leadership and motivational skills - I think this goes with the above. The players share responsibility here also.

no identity - I'm not following this one.

no consistent offensive or defensive scheme - I'm confused by this sometimes myself. I figure he's still learning and refining though. With the results he has brought though, I think he should be given more time on this.

and of course because he doesnt drink, cuss or smoke! - Haha, maybe that is the real problem.

I should have been more specific, lack of 5 star player development. DJ was his one incredible success.

Did you see his pregame speech before the Virginia game? I was embarrassed for him.

Our team has no identity, ie great defensive, press, zone, run and gun.

You agree about the scheme so we are good on that one.

And of course the cussing is the major problem. Lol

(11-28-2014 05:25 PM)thewood3 Wrote:  

(11-28-2014 05:19 PM)John44932 Wrote:  

(11-28-2014 05:06 PM)thewood3 Wrote:  

(11-28-2014 04:58 PM)John44932 Wrote:  

(11-28-2014 04:45 PM)NJ1 Wrote:  FYI-- this thread has all the hallmarks of "concern trolling." ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Inte...cern_troll )

Don't take the bait and give the desired reaction. I'd encourage other posters to not become upset by this post. It is technically within the rules, so it stays here-- I encourage us to turn this thread around into rational discussion, if possible.

Delete the thread if you want.

I'm really trying to understand the view of why people expect so much from CJP when he has basically done what the program has historically.

I have never seen anything rational posted here on why he needs to go. The only arguments I have seen are either based around contract amount, facilities, arena, etc. that have no real bearing on success. The generic "he can't coach" isn't helpful either.

Maybe if I was enlightened on why, then I would join the miserables in the displeasure. Until then, I think you all want blue blood results (and now) from a lower rung program.

You must not have read many of the threads.
Common reasons for fans feelings Josh isn't a good coach: lack of player development, lack of leadership and motivational skills, no identity, no consistent offensive or defensive scheme, and of course because he doesnt drink, cuss or smoke!

lack of player development - Then how do you explain people like DJ? I think everyone here would actually agree that DJ really developed at Memphis. I don't see how this falls totally on the coach. If the players don't buy in and work for it, then why should the coach be blamed?

lack of leadership and motivational skills - I think this goes with the above. The players share responsibility here also.

no identity - I'm not following this one.

no consistent offensive or defensive scheme - I'm confused by this sometimes myself. I figure he's still learning and refining though. With the results he has brought though, I think he should be given more time on this.

and of course because he doesnt drink, cuss or smoke! - Haha, maybe that is the real problem.

I should have been more specific, lack of 5 star player development. DJ was his one incredible success.

Did you see his pregame speech before the Virginia game? I was embarrassed for him.

Our team has no identity, ie great defensive, press, zone, run and gun.

You agree about the scheme so we are good on that one.

And of course the cussing is the major problem. Lol

Fair enough on the 5 star development. I just think this shouldn't fall 100% on the coach.

The speech? Why did you have to bring that up? I had forgotten about it. It gave me douche chills.

I'm clear on identity now. When Cal was here it was all about how great our defense was and the dribble drive offense. We can really lump that in with the schemes. I agree with you here.

Thanks for articulating the problems. I honestly couldn't get this from tons of threads I read. I get it now.

I'm split on the lack of player development though. I really think the players should take blame on this also. I wonder if it is the type of players we are recruiting?

We also really do need to develop some identity and consistent offense/defense schemes. I guess I'm more patient than others on giving him time to figure out what we are going to be. Maybe 5 years is too long, but I think with the success he has had that he kind of deserves more time.

I swear the posts here just drive me crazy. I don't consider myself one to support CJP on everything nor blame him for everything. It seems like this messageboard is pretty much split between the two groups. I really do think some people here have blue blood type expectations when I see posts saying they are going to stop going to games, hope the Tigers don't win any big games, etc.

I understood the point you were making with this thread. I'm unclear why it got flagged as trolling, but I'm no expert on message board rules.

Personally, I'm not expecting national championships, just consistency and development. I don't know the first thing about X's and O's, however I do know a lot about leadership and motivation. Based on everything I have seen from JP, this is where he really struggles. The players don't respect him bc he doesn't demand respect, and when he tries they just shut down. Remember the early years and the players would just laugh in his face, or mock him on the team bus?

You bring up a good point about recruiting a different type of player. What type would that be? All choir boys who buy into his cliche motivational speeches. I'm at a loss. Maybe I'm to impatient but I don't see him improving in several key areas.

(11-28-2014 05:42 PM)NJ1 Wrote:  This season will be an important one for my opinion of Josh Pastner as a coach.

We knew we were going to be rough going in. We were indeed worse than many of us even feared.

Will we start to coalesce into a team and show progress throughout the season? That's going to be a determining factor for whether or not I think Pastner is a long-term solution here. We showed flashes in the first half last night. It looked like we had turned a corner. Unfortunately, a bit of adversity hit in the second half and we folded up like a tent. It is concerning in particular because the experienced senior-led team last year exhibited the same tendency.

But we could progress beyond that. I hope we do. I, like a lot of fans, have given Pastner plenty of rope. I'd like to see him grow into "the answer" here. By the numbers he has done a pretty good job here.

One reason he hasn't connected with parts of the Memphis fan base is a matter of style. This city embraces the blue-collar, hard-defending, smash-mouth style of basketball. This is why the Grizzlies have so captured the city's imagination in the Zbo/Allen era. As a city/fan base, we've connected with that style of hoops as far back as I can remember. We also love high-flying athleticism, but more than that we tend to get into the "bad boy" types-- the intimidators, the bangers, those with a bit of a checkered past, those that play with a chip on their shoulder, and the redemption stories. We're the city that made pro wrestling and the fan base that threw knives on the court against Louisville. We get excited by all that stuff.

Pastner's style thus far hasn't emphasized those traits. Sure, he's had a few redemption stories sprinkled in, but he's squeaky clean. We've played good defense in a few past years, but seldom intimidating defense. We haven't had enforcers. We haven't had CDR types-- cocksure competitors that yearn to take the game-winning shot and seek-- rather than wilt from-- pressure. In short, we haven't had swagger. The coach doesn't swear, for &*!# sake.

There's just not an identity of toughness. And the Memphis fans can't stand it. We look for every opportunity to find fault, because to us, if you aren't tough you aren't successful. If we were putting a smash-mouth team on the floor that was intimidating folks, making fewer mistakes, had less talent but still won the same amount of games... I swear our fan base would be happier, and more on board. Bonus points if there was a vague idea that our coach was a cheater, and was good at it. It's what we know. It's what we've always liked, and embraced-- for better or for worse.

Now that's a great post! Well done sir. You nailed it and everything you said is 100% true.