(11-26-2014 09:42 PM)Brookes Owl Wrote:  

(11-26-2014 09:08 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  Who knew that all along the experts in police procedures and tactics would be found teaching public schools.

Enough - we get your point. There is more than enough evidence to demonstrate that police often behave poorly, do not follow the law, and/or take more aggressive actions than warranted. Lack of expertise in police procedure should not disqualify the expression of an opinion on police behavior.

Who are you to tell me what to post or not to post? Last time I checked there wasn't an election held to appoint you the final authority of what is posted on a message board.

(11-26-2014 10:50 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(11-26-2014 09:42 PM)Brookes Owl Wrote:  

(11-26-2014 09:08 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  Who knew that all along the experts in police procedures and tactics would be found teaching public schools.

Enough - we get your point. There is more than enough evidence to demonstrate that police often behave poorly, do not follow the law, and/or take more aggressive actions than warranted. Lack of expertise in police procedure should not disqualify the expression of an opinion on police behavior.

Who are you to tell me what to post or not to post? Last time I checked there wasn't an election held to appoint you the final authority of what is posted on a message board.

You've got to be kidding me. You make the exact same logically flawed point in at least 4 different posts in this thread and this is your reaction? How about you try to address the issue?

Can I get your phone number so I can call you and run whatever I am going to post by you so I don't have to wait around until you decide to grace us with your presence your highness?

(11-27-2014 12:04 AM)Kaplony Wrote:  Can I get your phone number so I can call you and run whatever I am going to post by you so I don't have to wait around until you decide to grace us with your presence your highness?

Wow. OK, let's consider a hypothetical case where in the bricks and mortar world your discourse is typically as repetitive and logically flawed as it is in this thread (as if!). If, in the middle of one of those conversations a colleague/friend/relative said to you, "Kaplony, enough already!" (be honest - this happens all the time, right?), would you immediately accuse them of censorship and authoritarian behavior? Don't you think it might just be a signal that everybody got your point and it might be a good time to move along in the conversation? That you, others, and the actual conversation might all benefit from that?

You made a point, several times. I addressed it. Care to respond? CAN you respond?

You didn't address anything, you stated your opinion. An opinion based upon a video that only shows a portion of the entire scene and includes no audio. Unless in addition to your self appointed duties as final authority on what is posted on this message board you are also the sole judge of the facts.

Did the officers verbally engage the deceased at a distance and then approach the subject in their patrol car after the non-compliance with the order to raise his hands? You don't know.

As observed by both gdunn and myself it appeared that the deceased lifted his shirt, and observation that was confirmed by the BBC article I linked earlier.

Quote:Deputy police chief Ed Tomba said one of the two officers involved shot the boy after he pulled the gun from the waistband of his trousers.

White, black, yellow, red, brown, green, purple, or Stewart Tartan if you are being detained in reference to possibly being armed with a hand gun and you do not A. comply with orders to raise your hands and B. you pull the potential weapon from your waistband chances are you are going to get shot.

How about innocent bystanders? Were there any nearby? It's hard to tell but it appears that the patrol car in the video is a Chevy Caprice. They are around 17' long. A rough estimate tells me that the car takes up a third of the video frame, which would put the area shown in the video at about 50 feet. A .45 round is effective anywhere within said distance, and even out to 100 yards. In the longer video gdunn provided a link for there is at least one other person uninvolved sitting at the same picnic table the deceased is sitting at in the first part of the shorter video that you and Mach were able to make your lead pipe cinch decisions from. Where are they in the time frame of the shorter video? We know that there was at least one other person in the area because they called 911 to report and I quote

Quote:guy with a gun pointing it at people.

In fact if you listen to the 911 call the caller says he is pointing it at "everybody", and keeps pulling it out of his pants. http://www.wkyc.com/story/news/local/cle.../19479083/ In the longer video gdunn provided the deceased is clearly seen brandishing the airsoft gun while on the sidewalk in the foreground of the video.
Oh yeah, if you listen to the 911 call linked above this is next to a mass transit station and a youth center.

Now since you have all the answers did the officers responding to the call come upon the deceased like they did to confront him or did they encounter him before they expected to? The 911 caller states he is sitting on a swing. Do you see any swings in the grainy, 50 ft wide video? I see a gazebo with a couple picnic tables, some trees in the background and some pilings used to keep vehicles off the grass, but I don't have all the answers based upon a one minute video like you and Mach.

Now taking all that into account explain to me how you would have come to a different conclusion in the seconds this incident happened. Remember now, you have seconds to determine that the deceased is grabbing for something designed for this


and not this


Balls in your court your highness.

(11-27-2014 01:14 AM)Kaplony Wrote:  You didn't address anything, you stated your opinion. An opinion based upon a video that only shows a portion of the entire scene and includes no audio. Unless in addition to your self appointed duties as final authority on what is posted on this message board you are also the sole judge of the facts.

Did the officers verbally engage the deceased at a distance and then approach the subject in their patrol car after the non-compliance with the order to raise his hands? You don't know.

As observed by both gdunn and myself it appeared that the deceased lifted his shirt, and observation that was confirmed by the BBC article I linked earlier.

Quote:Deputy police chief Ed Tomba said one of the two officers involved shot the boy after he pulled the gun from the waistband of his trousers.

White, black, yellow, red, brown, green, purple, or Stewart Tartan if you are being detained in reference to possibly being armed with a hand gun and you do not A. comply with orders to raise your hands and B. you pull the potential weapon from your waistband chances are you are going to get shot.

How about innocent bystanders? Were there any nearby? It's hard to tell but it appears that the patrol car in the video is a Chevy Caprice. They are around 17' long. A rough estimate tells me that the car takes up a third of the video frame, which would put the area shown in the video at about 50 feet. A .45 round is effective anywhere within said distance, and even out to 100 yards. In the longer video gdunn provided a link for there is at least one other person uninvolved sitting at the same picnic table the deceased is sitting at in the first part of the shorter video that you and Mach were able to make your lead pipe cinch decisions from. Where are they in the time frame of the shorter video? We know that there was at least one other person in the area because they called 911 to report and I quote

Quote:guy with a gun pointing it at people.

In fact if you listen to the 911 call the caller says he is pointing it at "everybody", and keeps pulling it out of his pants. http://www.wkyc.com/story/news/local/cle.../19479083/ In the longer video gdunn provided the deceased is clearly seen brandishing the airsoft gun while on the sidewalk in the foreground of the video.
Oh yeah, if you listen to the 911 call linked above this is next to a mass transit station and a youth center.

Now since you have all the answers did the officers responding to the call come upon the deceased like they did to confront him or did they encounter him before they expected to? The 911 caller states he is sitting on a swing. Do you see any swings in the grainy, 50 ft wide video? I see a gazebo with a couple picnic tables, some trees in the background and some pilings used to keep vehicles off the grass, but I don't have all the answers based upon a one minute video like you and Mach.

Now taking all that into account explain to me how you would have come to a different conclusion in the seconds this incident happened. Remember now, you have seconds to determine that the deceased is grabbing for something designed for this


and not this


Balls in your court your highness.

If I shot the kid, I'd be in jail. Plain and simple.

(11-27-2014 01:14 AM)Kaplony Wrote:  Unless in addition to your self appointed duties as final authority on what is posted on this message board you are also the sole judge of the facts.

Quote:Balls in your court your highness.

Minus the annoying straw men and name calling, I actually do appreciate that you're willing to discuss substance. That said, you're kind of changing the subject, or at least avoiding my point. I'm perfectly fine with your assessment of the video and I completely agree that it's very difficult to make much of it. My criticism (and it was really more of a question), was to wonder why the responding officers had to pull up to a distance so close that they denied themselves options to assess the situation as well as they could have if they started from a greater distance. I notice you address that above and you make a valid point but my assessment of the behaviors in the video makes me think they didn't engage from a distance first. We'll find out, I'm sure.

But my problem with your oft-repeated sarcastic trope: "Look at all these experts" is that expertise on police procedure should not be a prerequisite for questioning police behavior. (I'll also note the irony that you can say this and be offended by my "enough - we get it" rebuttal.) Nationwide there are too many recent examples of police behavior that clearly indicate many of them are not acting in the best interests of their communities. I'm troubled by the continued upgrading of arms and I'm concerned that militarization of police forces is making some in law enforcement believe they are not citizen protectors but warriors. And I think this means we all need to look a little more critically at police actions when it's warranted.

(11-27-2014 02:30 AM)RaiderATO Wrote:  

(11-27-2014 01:14 AM)Kaplony Wrote:  You didn't address anything, you stated your opinion. An opinion based upon a video that only shows a portion of the entire scene and includes no audio. Unless in addition to your self appointed duties as final authority on what is posted on this message board you are also the sole judge of the facts.

Did the officers verbally engage the deceased at a distance and then approach the subject in their patrol car after the non-compliance with the order to raise his hands? You don't know.

As observed by both gdunn and myself it appeared that the deceased lifted his shirt, and observation that was confirmed by the BBC article I linked earlier.

Quote:Deputy police chief Ed Tomba said one of the two officers involved shot the boy after he pulled the gun from the waistband of his trousers.

White, black, yellow, red, brown, green, purple, or Stewart Tartan if you are being detained in reference to possibly being armed with a hand gun and you do not A. comply with orders to raise your hands and B. you pull the potential weapon from your waistband chances are you are going to get shot.

How about innocent bystanders? Were there any nearby? It's hard to tell but it appears that the patrol car in the video is a Chevy Caprice. They are around 17' long. A rough estimate tells me that the car takes up a third of the video frame, which would put the area shown in the video at about 50 feet. A .45 round is effective anywhere within said distance, and even out to 100 yards. In the longer video gdunn provided a link for there is at least one other person uninvolved sitting at the same picnic table the deceased is sitting at in the first part of the shorter video that you and Mach were able to make your lead pipe cinch decisions from. Where are they in the time frame of the shorter video? We know that there was at least one other person in the area because they called 911 to report and I quote

Quote:guy with a gun pointing it at people.

In fact if you listen to the 911 call the caller says he is pointing it at "everybody", and keeps pulling it out of his pants. http://www.wkyc.com/story/news/local/cle.../19479083/ In the longer video gdunn provided the deceased is clearly seen brandishing the airsoft gun while on the sidewalk in the foreground of the video.
Oh yeah, if you listen to the 911 call linked above this is next to a mass transit station and a youth center.

Now since you have all the answers did the officers responding to the call come upon the deceased like they did to confront him or did they encounter him before they expected to? The 911 caller states he is sitting on a swing. Do you see any swings in the grainy, 50 ft wide video? I see a gazebo with a couple picnic tables, some trees in the background and some pilings used to keep vehicles off the grass, but I don't have all the answers based upon a one minute video like you and Mach.

Now taking all that into account explain to me how you would have come to a different conclusion in the seconds this incident happened. Remember now, you have seconds to determine that the deceased is grabbing for something designed for this


and not this


Balls in your court your highness.

If I shot the kid, I'd be in jail. Plain and simple.

Not in SC. The situation as described meets the criteria for a justified self-defense shooting.

(11-27-2014 02:50 AM)Brookes Owl Wrote:  My criticism (and it was really more of a question), was to wonder why the responding officers had to pull up to a distance so close that they denied themselves options to assess the situation as well as they could have if they started from a greater distance. I notice you address that above and you make a valid point but my assessment of the behaviors in the video makes me think they didn't engage from a distance first. We'll find out, I'm sure.

In all honesty I don't believe they did either. I believe that instead it was as I mentioned in the latter part of my post, they were expecting him to be somewhere else based upon the information at hand (the 911 caller stating he was sitting on the swings) and came upon him sooner than they expected. That's the only explanation I can think of because I find it hard to believe the intention was to drive up within feet of the suspect and confront him. That puts them at an extreme tactical disadvantage to the assailant because you are vulnerable when you exit the vehicle, and putting the cruiser in that confined space between the gazebo and the traffic control pilings limits not only their ability to move tactically on foot it would prevent them from being able to retreat if the encounter escalates. According to the reports I have seen the 10 year veteran was the driver....no way in hell a 10 year veteran of a department like Cleveland intentionally puts himself and his partner in a bottleneck like that and at an extreme tactical disadvantage. IMO had Rice indeed been armed with a handgun and bent on shooting someone then Mach, Fit, and all the country's cop hating liberals and libertarians would be making a Thanksgiving toast for the 107th and probably 108th line of duty death of a law enforcement officer in this country this year.

Quote:Nationwide there are too many recent examples of police behavior that clearly indicate many of them are not acting in the best interests of their communities. I'm troubled by the continued upgrading of arms and I'm concerned that militarization of police forces is making some in law enforcement believe they are not citizen protectors but warriors. And I think this means we all need to look a little more critically at police actions when it's warranted.

Ah....the fall-back "Militarization of the police" argument.

The officers involved in this incident were wearing the standard patrol uniform, driving a standard patrol car, and shot the subject with standard issue sidearms, so that is a straw-man argument that is getting as stale as the liberals overuse of the word "racist".



One thing that people like you who think that cops should only be equipped with the aforementioned patrol car, side arm, and duty uniform have never been able to answer is this......what are they supposed to do when they are outgunned by the criminal?



Wait for the National Guard? Some of your loved ones are being held captive by someone armed with an AK47. How happy are you going to be when it takes 12+ hours for A. the request to be made to your governor B. the governor to issue the order to call up the Guard C. the Guardsmen to assemble at the armory to gather their weapons and D. the Guardsmen to deploy from the armory to the scene?

"But they are using military tactics" I covered this in a post a few months back. They are using the military tactics because they are the best tactics for the situation, and in many cases the tactics being used were actually tactics developed by urban law enforcement that were adopted by the military. Remember that up until the late 1980's our military, other than a few elite counterterrorism units, was geared up more for fighting Soviet armored columns in the German countryside and fighting insurgencies in the jungles of Asia and Central and South America. Watch a documentary sometime about the fighting in Hue City during the Tet Offensive and you'll hear that our troops weren't trained for urban warfare. When the Soviet threat evaporated the military realized that they were more likely to be fighting in places like Baghdad and Mogadishu than the Fulda Gap and Dak To, and they turned to the people who had been dealing with insurgencies in urban environments for help....the urban police SWAT units.

And yes, let's talk about how the armored vehicles and military style equipment makes the police think they are the army in Afghanistan. Shall we compare how the police, even in all their riot gear and deployed with their armored vehicles, deal with coming under live fire compared to the military?

The police in Ferguson in August




The military in Afghanistan




Oh yeah, totally the same (insert rolling eyes icon here)

(11-27-2014 02:30 AM)RaiderATO Wrote:  

(11-27-2014 01:14 AM)Kaplony Wrote:  You didn't address anything, you stated your opinion. An opinion based upon a video that only shows a portion of the entire scene and includes no audio. Unless in addition to your self appointed duties as final authority on what is posted on this message board you are also the sole judge of the facts.

Did the officers verbally engage the deceased at a distance and then approach the subject in their patrol car after the non-compliance with the order to raise his hands? You don't know.

As observed by both gdunn and myself it appeared that the deceased lifted his shirt, and observation that was confirmed by the BBC article I linked earlier.

Quote:Deputy police chief Ed Tomba said one of the two officers involved shot the boy after he pulled the gun from the waistband of his trousers.

White, black, yellow, red, brown, green, purple, or Stewart Tartan if you are being detained in reference to possibly being armed with a hand gun and you do not A. comply with orders to raise your hands and B. you pull the potential weapon from your waistband chances are you are going to get shot.

How about innocent bystanders? Were there any nearby? It's hard to tell but it appears that the patrol car in the video is a Chevy Caprice. They are around 17' long. A rough estimate tells me that the car takes up a third of the video frame, which would put the area shown in the video at about 50 feet. A .45 round is effective anywhere within said distance, and even out to 100 yards. In the longer video gdunn provided a link for there is at least one other person uninvolved sitting at the same picnic table the deceased is sitting at in the first part of the shorter video that you and Mach were able to make your lead pipe cinch decisions from. Where are they in the time frame of the shorter video? We know that there was at least one other person in the area because they called 911 to report and I quote

Quote:guy with a gun pointing it at people.

In fact if you listen to the 911 call the caller says he is pointing it at "everybody", and keeps pulling it out of his pants. http://www.wkyc.com/story/news/local/cle.../19479083/ In the longer video gdunn provided the deceased is clearly seen brandishing the airsoft gun while on the sidewalk in the foreground of the video.
Oh yeah, if you listen to the 911 call linked above this is next to a mass transit station and a youth center.

Now since you have all the answers did the officers responding to the call come upon the deceased like they did to confront him or did they encounter him before they expected to? The 911 caller states he is sitting on a swing. Do you see any swings in the grainy, 50 ft wide video? I see a gazebo with a couple picnic tables, some trees in the background and some pilings used to keep vehicles off the grass, but I don't have all the answers based upon a one minute video like you and Mach.

Now taking all that into account explain to me how you would have come to a different conclusion in the seconds this incident happened. Remember now, you have seconds to determine that the deceased is grabbing for something designed for this


and not this


Balls in your court your highness.

If I shot the kid, I'd be in jail. Plain and simple.

If you shot the kid in public, yes cause you shouldn't be out in public with a gun unless you have a CCW permit. Chances are if you have that permit you wouldn't be out looking for someone to shoot.

Kaplony,

Look up Felony take down procedures. Read them yourself. So many mistakes were made here. One officer should have remained in the car informing the suspect he was in imminent danger. If these officers are not charged with anything because of their training then we have to change their training. Somehow someway the police have lost sight of their primary duty. Protect and SERVE. I have posted two videos in this thread where black kids have been killed holding bob guns. They didn't even know they were in danger. It was shoot first ascertain facts later. This needs to change.

Police have a tough job.

This really is a tragedy. A 12 year old does something really stupid (12 year olds are prone to doing stupid stuff without thinking) and winds up dead in the process. I'm willing to bet that the officer that pulled the trigger feels awful and has played the encounter over in his mind a thousand times and wishes the outcome were different.

At this point, I'm not ready to crucify the officer and send him off to prison. I'm sure he was fearful, didn't know the gun wasn't real, didn't know the kid was only 12, etc.

The shame of it all is that our big cities have become dangerous enough that both police and citizens as well are that fearful of being shot, or robbed by gunpoint, etc.

This danger, and this fear lead to something like this happening.

(11-27-2014 10:24 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Kaplony,

Look up Felony take down procedures. Read them yourself. So many mistakes were made here. One officer should have remained in the car informing the suspect he was in imminent danger. If these officers are not charged with anything because of their training then we have to change their training. Somehow someway the police have lost sight of their primary duty. Protect and SERVE. I have posted two videos in this thread where black kids have been killed holding bob guns. They didn't even know they were in danger. It was shoot first ascertain facts later. This needs to change.

Read the replies I made to the queen of Spin Room content. I do not believe that the two officers intended for contact to be made where it was made. I fully believe that they encountered the subject before they were expecting him to be based upon the information they had at the time (he was last reported to be on the swings per the 911 call) and had to adapt to the situation when it rapidly changed.

And procedures are great and we in the public safety do our best to follow them, but unlike the procedure for teaching to the test or marching your precious little snowflakes to lunch in a profession where things change every second sometimes you can't follow procedures and you just have to wing it because that's what the situation dictates. You learn the procedures in your basic training, then in your field training you learn that sometimes the procedures will get you killed and you have to learn to be adaptive so that you can go home at the end of your shift. If our law enforcement (and other public safety professionals) were strictly married to procedure you and your fellow cop haters would be celebrating a lot more than 106 line of duty deaths today.

(11-26-2014 08:24 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  The kid was black so the cop was in fear for his life. Black people are scary.

Posted from my mobile device using the CSNbbs App

Race baiters bait.

Now, where were we?

It's a damn shame. I don't know what to think.

I do think it interesting that the real epidemic of young black men (and children) being shot in this country is by other young black men (and children) is not particularly noteworthy. That, to me, is the bigger tragedy.

Events like these, as tragic as they may be, are a grain of sand on the beach.

But nobody wants to talk about that.

(11-27-2014 11:08 AM)Smaug Wrote:  It's a damn shame. I don't know what to think.

I do think it interesting that the real epidemic of young black men (and children) being shot in this country is by other young black men (and children) is not particularly noteworthy. That, to me, is the bigger tragedy.

Events like these, as tragic as they may be, are a grain of sand on the beach.

But nobody wants to talk about that.

Doesnt make for good nightly news.

What should be the appropriate response to this?

(11-27-2014 11:21 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  What should be the appropriate response to this?

Exactly what happened. Subject was instructed to raise his hands instead he pulls what appears to be a 1911 style .45 handgun from his waistband, subject got shot twice.

I meant going forward from here. BTW you have ZERO credibility going forward if you think that video showed an appropriate response by the police. The police didn't have time to instruct anyone. They shot the kid immediately exiting the vehicle.