As many of you know this one hits close to home for me. My mom is a retired teacher (who won a lot of teaching awards during her career) and my sister is currently a teacher (who makes nowhere near the "BIG" salaries quoted on this site often).

My mom told me that by the time she retired she didn't feel the satisfaction in her job each day that she did in the early part of her career. Why? She no longer was truly teaching the kids, she was teaching to a test. That was all they did... reviewed the parts needed for the state test. They didn't teach kids how to find the answer, they only taught them the answer. Hammered in their head because if they didn't they were fired. It forced out many of the best teachers because they were so fed up with the BS associated with it.

She is quite clear on when things changed... right after No Child Left Behind was passed (another bipartisan piece of crap law that the Federal gov't overstepped the local and state gov'ts on).

It made a 1 size fits all education plan, when we all know that there is no way you can truly do that. What they did was hold the top kids back to the level of the general kids. There is no way a kid in an inner city can now keep pace with their suburban counterparts thanks to crappy parents who don't push their kids, which is much more prevalent in inner cities than suburbs. It isn't due to the teachers, it is due to the fact that the teacher is hamstrung thanks to the idiocy of that laws. Every change since NCLB has still kept those basic tenets that Laura Bush and Ted Kennedy forced upon our public school systems 13 years ago.

(11-25-2014 10:49 AM)Crebman Wrote:  Until we remove the clutter in the average school and organize the kids where they should be tracked to - we will never succeed. We can test and measure effectively once kids are being taught what they should be according to their abilities.

The above is not PC, which is why the political class will never touch it. They really don't care if the system works or not, only if they can spew rhetoric and garner votes from the uninformed and stupid.

Which brings me back to my longstanding goal: Separation of School and State.

The "political class" (politicians, lawyers, judges, lobbyists, professional media, govt. unions/employees, etc.) will not surrender control of their education system without a prolonged political war. But -- someday, someway, somehow -- that war will have to be fought and won before any meaningful, positive change can occur. Until then, it'll be slight (VERY slight) variations on the same old same old (e.g., most "charter schools").

Peace be unto you Torch......

Don't see myself ever wanting or seeing a need for your opinion. Please refrain from addressing me. You can be sure I will reciprocate in kind.

EXCELLENT

(11-25-2014 11:03 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Peace be unto you Torch......

Don't see myself ever wanting or seeing a need for your opinion. Please refrain from addressing me. You can be sure I will reciprocate in kind.

EXCELLENT

Doesn't work that way. I say what I want. #notacoward

Keep on hatin on then brotha'

(11-25-2014 10:37 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  It was the Supreme Court I believe. 1973 decision if I remember correctly.

Oh, the Supreme Court!! How comforting and reassuring… Not.

There are very few (frankly, none that I can recall offhand) social problems/challenges that have not been made worse by the involvement of the federal judiciary, and the challenge of educating children with special-needs is definitely one example of that. Even so, I admit that I don't know which Supreme Court decision you're referring to.

The sooner our public system completely collapses the sooner we can put something together that can actually teach kids.

What we have now is worse than nothing.

(11-25-2014 11:49 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  The sooner our public system completely collapses the sooner we can put something together that can actually teach kids.

What we have now is worse than nothing.

It'll never collapse due to the fact that the federal gov't will just continue to change the goals year after year, creating a system that cannot ever adapt to their changing ideals. It is insane. Both parties are guilty of moving the goal posts over and over and neither one of them want to admit that if you are going to fix public schools it starts locally, not at the federal level. Let the local board of educations do their job... educate their students.

(11-25-2014 11:49 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  The sooner our public system completely collapses the sooner we can put something together that can actually teach kids.

What we have now is worse than nothing.

Won't happen. The political class won't ever give up the power - even if it means being inept at the job. When have politicians ever given up power no matter if they suck at the job - never.

There are a lot of campaign contributions to be had with maintaining the power over the system.

I think it can. There comes a time when the poor folks come to the realization that they aren't being educated, some of us call the mechanism for that realization income inequality.


You can only screw people for so long before they force a change.

(11-25-2014 10:49 AM)Crebman Wrote:  

(11-25-2014 09:51 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  We are going to have to put students on tracks based on ability. Every good education system in the world does that. The other part of that is that we have to upgrade our vocational education system massively. A kid who wants to be a car mechanic doesn't need to be learning Chaucer, s/he needs to be learning how to fix cars.

Exactly.

If we really want to have an effective education system, we have to teach kids what they are going to need to know to be productive in society.

That means a college track, a vo-ed track, and for kids with big problems, we have to put them in schools that will meet the needs they have, but in their own setting.

You mean *mock gasp of sarcasm*school choice?

I'd have to go look up Mach's old posts (or he can confirm/deny) how he felt about school vouchers/choice.

Mach, I'd dispute one part of your original post; where you said we're requiring more and more stringent classes? My mom (who's been teaching for at least a quarter of a century now) would tell you exactly the opposite, classes have been getting so dumbed down that nobody's learning anything new. (that's why she changed over to a private religious school system to teach in.)

(11-25-2014 01:34 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  You can only screw people for so long before they force a change.

The problem is, "so long" can last for several generations.

(11-25-2014 03:33 PM)DaSaintFan Wrote:  

(11-25-2014 10:49 AM)Crebman Wrote:  

(11-25-2014 09:51 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  We are going to have to put students on tracks based on ability. Every good education system in the world does that. The other part of that is that we have to upgrade our vocational education system massively. A kid who wants to be a car mechanic doesn't need to be learning Chaucer, s/he needs to be learning how to fix cars.

Exactly.

If we really want to have an effective education system, we have to teach kids what they are going to need to know to be productive in society.

That means a college track, a vo-ed track, and for kids with big problems, we have to put them in schools that will meet the needs they have, but in their own setting.

You mean *mock gasp of sarcasm*school choice?

I'd have to go look up Mach's old posts (or he can confirm/deny) how he felt about school vouchers/choice.

Mach, I'd dispute one part of your original post; where you said we're requiring more and more stringent classes? My mom (who's been teaching for at least a quarter of a century now) would tell you exactly the opposite, classes have been getting so dumbed down that nobody's learning anything new. (that's why she changed over to a private religious school system to teach in.)

In Mach's defense, I will say that in Ohio, charter schools haven't been the panacea that many would think. In fact, since most of them wind up locating in the large cities, they fail just as miserably as the publics and seemingly have more "financial issues" than publics.

If you are talking about vouchers to already successful privates, I would suspect that the outcomes might be somewhat different. With that said, just giving Jimmy a voucher to attend a different school with no parental skin in the game monetarily is, I think, a failure waiting to happen. I mean, all too often, section 8 housing is treated horribly for the same reason - no skin in the game.

When I first started teaching twenty years ago. You needed one science credit to graduate. Today it's three. Add onto that the LRE kids. The stringent courses have been dumbed down.

(11-25-2014 04:31 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  When I first started teaching twenty years ago. You needed one science credit to graduate. Today it's three. Add onto that the LRE kids. The stringent courses have been dumbed down.

As I've stated earlier (and you as well) - the system that has been set-up such that teachers spend the bulk of their time trying to bring the dumbest kids to passing the state test all but ignoring the smart kids.

What a hell of a measuring system that encourages/forces the education system to throw all of their time and money at the dumbest ones that walk through the doors........really promotes exceptionalism in education.

(11-25-2014 04:50 PM)Crebman Wrote:  

(11-25-2014 04:31 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  When I first started teaching twenty years ago. You needed one science credit to graduate. Today it's three. Add onto that the LRE kids. The stringent courses have been dumbed down.

As I've stated earlier (and you as well) - the system that has been set-up such that teachers spend the bulk of their time trying to bring the dumbest kids to passing the state test all but ignoring the smart kids.

What a hell of a measuring system that encourages/forces the education system to throw all of their time and money at the dumbest ones that walk through the doors........really promotes exceptionalism in education.

Does keep down the competition for TPTB.

(11-25-2014 04:55 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(11-25-2014 04:50 PM)Crebman Wrote:  

(11-25-2014 04:31 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  When I first started teaching twenty years ago. You needed one science credit to graduate. Today it's three. Add onto that the LRE kids. The stringent courses have been dumbed down.

As I've stated earlier (and you as well) - the system that has been set-up such that teachers spend the bulk of their time trying to bring the dumbest kids to passing the state test all but ignoring the smart kids.

What a hell of a measuring system that encourages/forces the education system to throw all of their time and money at the dumbest ones that walk through the doors........really promotes exceptionalism in education.

Does keep down the competition for TPTB.

Yep.

The real shame of it all is the elephant in the room is ignored - we won't tell a kid, well son, you're going to go learn to work on cars or run a machine. Nope, we let that kid flounder around for 12 years failing at college preparatory stuff..............and if he's lucky - he goes and works on cars or runs a machine. If he's not - he works at Taco Bell and has NO skills.

Our PC world refuses to do any directing. We must "allow each child to find himself''. Meanwhile Taco Bell Timmy flails at life.