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Mick Cronin: Bearcats need to get tougher
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ctipton Offline
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Mick Cronin: Bearcats need to get tougher
Mick Cronin: Bearcats need to get tougher
Bill Koch, bkoch@enquirer.com 5:45 p.m. EST November 24, 2014

[Image: 635524416478006019-UC-E-Illinois-23.JPG]
UC head coach Mick Cronin's biggest concern with his team through the first three games is an apparent lack of physical and mental toughness.(Photo: The Enquirer/Gary Landers)

The best that can be said about the University of Cincinnati's lackluster performance Sunday was that the Bearcats found a way to win, which means they won't have to fret about having Eastern Illinois pop up in March as a bad loss on their NCAA Tournament resume.

In addition, there were a career-high 17 points from Troy Caupain and a 9-point, 5-rebound effort from Shaq Thomas, who had been unproductive in UC's first two games.

Beyond that, there was much for UC coach Mick Cronin to be concerned about as the Bearcats prepare to face North Central Carolina (1-2) on Tuesday at 7 p.m. at Fifth Third Arena in the second game of the Emerald Coast Classic.

At the top of the list of Cronin's concerns is the lack of mental and physical toughness he has observed in the Bearcats' first three games, all of which UC has won in unimpressive fashion.

"We've got to develop some toughness and that has to be the message from our returning players," Cronin said after UC's 54-49 win over Eastern Illinois. "Right now we're full of excuses instead of answers and that's just the truth."

Cronin has made a point of urging everyone inside and outside the program not to dwell on the three seniors from last year who are no longer at UC. The message was that they're gone, they're not coming back, and it's time for a new group to forge its own winning identity.

But even Cronin talked longingly about last year's big three after the Eastern Illinois game as he lamented the Bearcats' shortcomings.

"What I told them is our season will be based on whether we're tough enough to get the job done," Cronin said. "Everybody's got talent. Last year I had the three toughest guys in America and I told everybody that's why we won. They were tough enough to get the grass cut."

That hasn't been the case so far with this team, which includes seven newcomers trying to find their way at a higher level of competition. But it's still very early in the season.

"When I say we're not tough enough, this isn't a boxing match," Cronin said. "You've got to be tough enough to play well. You've got to be tough enough to put the ball in the basket. You've got to be tough enough to take care of the ball. You've got to be tough enough to get fouled vs. pressure. You've got to be tough enough to go up in a one-and-one situation and not almost shoot an airball."

The Bearcats, who received four votes this week in the Associated Press Top 25 media poll, won't begin playing more recognizable schools until this weekend when they travel to Niceville, Florida, for the final two games of the Emerald Coast Classic. They'll face Middle Tennessee on Friday and either Creighton or Ole Miss on Saturday.

But the North Carolina Central team that UC plays Tuesday has solid credentials. The Eagles were 28-6 last year, won both the Mid-Eastern Athletic Conference regular-season and tournament titles, and made the first NCAA Tournament appearance in school history. The Bearcats beat them last year, 74-61, in their season opener.

NCCU is coached by LeVelle Moton, whom Cronin calls "the best coach that's unknown in the country."

The Eagles were picked to win the league again this year and feature senior forward Jordan Parks, a first-team pre-season all-conference selection, and senior guard Anthony McDonald, who averages 18.3 points and shoots 46.7 percent from 3-point range. But they've lost both of their games against Division I competition - 65-45 to Creighton and 76-60 to North Carolina.

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/c.../70056824/
 
11-24-2014 09:03 PM
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Bearcats#1 Offline
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RE: Mick Cronin: Bearcats need to get tougher
hahah these young'in's better get tough real quick because this team they are getting ready to play isn't a pushover....
 
11-24-2014 09:24 PM
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BearcatShane09 Offline
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RE: Mick Cronin: Bearcats need to get tougher
No they're not all all. But Saturday night against probably Creighton could get ugly.
 
11-24-2014 09:43 PM
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BeerCat Offline
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RE: Mick Cronin: Bearcats need to get tougher
Toughness would be nice, but at this point I'd rather see some offensive proficiency.
 
11-24-2014 10:48 PM
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DMT Offline
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RE: Mick Cronin: Bearcats need to get tougher
(11-24-2014 10:48 PM)BeerCat Wrote:  Toughness would be nice, but at this point I'd rather see some offensive proficiency.

They were really half assed in terms of effort too though, not just execution.
 
11-25-2014 12:21 AM
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marcuscan Offline
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RE: Mick Cronin: Bearcats need to get tougher
I attended UC from 95 to 2000....and have been a fan ever since. If only I had a nickel for everytime I heard that toughness was what held a UC hoops team back. If only.....

I'm admittedly jaded abt Cincy hoops as a result of years upon years of offensive basketball. As far as I can tell hoop games are won by the team that puts the ball in the basket....not the "toughest" team. Whatever in the world such a nebulous description means.

One day....maybe...we'll have a cpl competent offensive basketball players....not just one so so guy and a bunch of strong/ long armed/ tough athletes. And when that one day comes....maybe we'll have an offense for them to run that's efficient.

A guy can dream.......



mc
 
11-25-2014 11:45 AM
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RE: Mick Cronin: Bearcats need to get tougher
(11-25-2014 11:45 AM)marcuscan Wrote:  I attended UC from 95 to 2000....and have been a fan ever since. If only I had a nickel for everytime I heard that toughness was what held a UC hoops team back. If only.....

I'm admittedly jaded abt Cincy hoops as a result of years upon years of offensive basketball. As far as I can tell hoop games are won by the team that puts the ball in the basket....not the "toughest" team. Whatever in the world such a nebulous description means.

One day....maybe...we'll have a cpl competent offensive basketball players....not just one so so guy and a bunch of strong/ long armed/ tough athletes. And when that one day comes....maybe we'll have an offense for them to run that's efficient.

A guy can dream.......



mc


I wouldn't call Yancy Gates, Sean Kilpatrick and Cashmere Wright's offensive games lacking. I think the teams offensive performance, is more on the coach than the players.
 
(This post was last modified: 11-25-2014 11:59 AM by DMT.)
11-25-2014 11:59 AM
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mikecat Offline
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RE: Mick Cronin: Bearcats need to get tougher
[quote='marcuscan' pid='11436420' dateline='1416933959']
I attended UC from 95 to 2000....and have been a fan ever since. If only I had a nickel for everytime I heard that toughness was what held a UC hoops team back. If only.....

I'm admittedly jaded abt Cincy hoops as a result of years upon years of offensive basketball. As far as I can tell hoop games are won by the team that puts the ball in the basket....not the "toughest" team. Whatever in the world such a nebulous description means.

One day....maybe...we'll have a cpl competent offensive basketball players....not just one so so guy and a bunch of strong/ long armed/ tough athletes. And when that one day comes....maybe we'll have an offense for them to run that's efficient.

A guy can dream.......



mc
[/quote

well said 01-ncaabbs
 
11-25-2014 12:24 PM
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CincyBro Offline
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RE: Mick Cronin: Bearcats need to get tougher
The only two things wrong with this basketball team are experience and efficient, consistent shooters. The coaching staff's number one priority should be to put his players in position to succeed to the best of their abilities and I'm not always sure that happens on the offensive end of things.
 
11-25-2014 12:51 PM
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cpawfan Offline
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RE: Mick Cronin: Bearcats need to get tougher
A lot of people need to read Toughness by Jay Bilas
 
11-25-2014 01:37 PM
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RE: Mick Cronin: Bearcats need to get tougher
I guess you can call me Charlie Brown, because every year I fall for the old we finally have the players to run and press and play uptempo exciting basketball and then Mick pulls the football away and I fall on my A$$.I guess a 53-52 win is as good as a 82-81 win but IMO its not as fun to watch. Go Cats lets get tougher?
 
11-25-2014 01:44 PM
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RE: Mick Cronin: Bearcats need to get tougher
Chuck asked Mick a question after the Eastern Illinois game and he replied "Chuck, I just don't know". Mick has finally arrived !! 03-banghead
 
11-25-2014 02:03 PM
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RE: Mick Cronin: Bearcats need to get tougher
(11-25-2014 11:45 AM)marcuscan Wrote:  I attended UC from 95 to 2000....and have been a fan ever since. If only I had a nickel for everytime I heard that toughness was what held a UC hoops team back. If only.....

I'm admittedly jaded abt Cincy hoops as a result of years upon years of offensive basketball. As far as I can tell hoop games are won by the team that puts the ball in the basket....not the "toughest" team. Whatever in the world such a nebulous description means.

One day....maybe...we'll have a cpl competent offensive basketball players....not just one so so guy and a bunch of strong/ long armed/ tough athletes. And when that one day comes....maybe we'll have an offense for them to run that's efficient.

A guy can dream.......

mc
I appreciate how fans with your mindset feel BUT as a fan of UC hoops since the 80s when I attended and before, I would suggest this thought. UC has NEVER been about scoring prowess and efficiency and has ALMOST ALWAYS been known as a tough team... tough physically and tough mentally. Tough under Catlett, Huggins, Kennedy and Cronin. Tough from Puffy Kennedy and Jelly Jones, Herb Jones, Buford, Van Exel, Maxiell, Hicks, Brandon, Fletcher, Burton, Logan, Fortson, Patterson, and bunches of others up through last year's trio of seniors. One thing that has been pretty much for certain when you talk UC hoops though the last 30 years is that no one was going to out hustle, out effort, out rebound, out mucscle -- or to use the term from Mick OUT TOUGH -- the Bearcats especially physically.

UC did not become the villians of college hoops by playing nice. We were and enjoyed being "thugs" and out muscleing and out bullying everyone in sight. We never backed down. That's toughness. That's Bearcat basketball.

If a fan base wants "pretty" basketball, or a finesse team or a team that wins on pure talent, the Bearcats of the 80s, 90s and into the 21st century have not been and will not be that team. Period. Don't get me wrong -- they have had plenty of talented players. An All-American here and there even an NBA player from time to time. But look back at our UC basketball "heroes"... Martin, Logan, Fortson, Kirkpatrick, Hicks, Maxiell, Van Exel, Herb Jones etc. etc. Yes, you'll find a few NBAers in there but even those with a possible exception of Van Exel have never been stars at the next level. They've been guys who fought, scratched, clawed and out toughed their opponents and earned everything they received.

That's what Mick is looking for now from this group. Every team UC faces will have talented players...many teams will have players more talented than those on UCs roster. So what. Talent alone (except maybe in Lexington) doesn't win titles or games late in March. Toughness does. Physical and mental. Let me put it another way. If you were recruiting your own team at a high D1 level, would you honestly have built your team around Kirkpatrick, Jackson and Rubles? But by their senior year, would 99% of NCAA D1 teams want them? Absolutely. Why? Because they were tougher than nails and never took anything for granted. EVER. But they had to learn too -- they just never had to learn 7 at a team. This team will be fine, I trust Mick that much. Give them time to grow and learn to be "UC tough".
 
11-25-2014 02:31 PM
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RE: Mick Cronin: Bearcats need to get tougher
Ok I respect how hard that SK jackson and rubles played last year and that got us a 61-57 lost to harvard in the first round so to say 99% of the teams would have took them might be a stretch.I can only speak for myself but watching guys dribble around for 30 seconds and throwing up one legged runners in the lane is not what i would call exciting.I also dont think this style is going to lead to long tourney runs in March,I would love to be wrong but I dont think I will be.
 
11-25-2014 03:07 PM
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RE: Mick Cronin: Bearcats need to get tougher
(11-25-2014 03:07 PM)mikecat Wrote:  Ok I respect how hard that SK jackson and rubles played last year and that got us a 61-57 lost to harvard in the first round so to say 99% of the teams would have took them might be a stretch.I can only speak for myself but watching guys dribble around for 30 seconds and throwing up one legged runners in the lane is not what i would call exciting.I also dont think this style is going to lead to long tourney runs in March,I would love to be wrong but I dont think I will be.

Not disagreeing with that thought at all Mike. Maybe 99% was too high. My point was that the "style" of Bearcat hoops, which is primarily dictated by the coach, is what it is. UC has never been a major destination of top 150 ball players or McD AA - (even when a certain former coach did employ the press and run style) which is where many of the pure scorers or very adept scorers are typically found. Because we didn't draw scorers, we went after the best remaining and relyed on toughness, hustle and defense. Would I rather watch scorers over defenders? Depends on if we are going to outscore people more times per year on average than we are going to out defense people :-) I can say I'm less happy with a team that averages 80 points a year and loses in the 1st or 2nd round than a team a team that averages 65 and gets past the 2nd round. In a perfect world, we'd get players who do both, but I don't tend to see that anywhere else in college hoops either. Unfortunately, my crystal ball won't tell me which gives us the best chance going forward. I know that with the hand Mick was dealt, this was the path he had to go to get UC back to the Big Dance as quickly as possible - which is what we as fans demanded. Let's just hope that now that we are somewhat re-established, he can make the transition in style and player type recruited as well.
 
11-25-2014 04:34 PM
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RE: Mick Cronin: Bearcats need to get tougher
(11-25-2014 02:31 PM)Cal1362 Wrote:  If you were recruiting your own team at a high D1 level, would you honestly have built your team around Kirkpatrick, Jackson and Rubles? But by their senior year, would 99% of NCAA D1 teams want them? Absolutely. Why? Because they were tougher than nails and never took anything for granted. EVER. But they had to learn too -- they just never had to learn 7 at a team. This team will be fine, I trust Mick that much. Give them time to grow and learn to be "UC tough".

NO F'ING WAY.

SK may hve started for some top 25 teams, I even think he would have come off the bench. JJ and Rubles are an absolute no.

Heart and toughness only get you so far.

I've put this quote on the board before, it is one of my favorite quotes. It's from former NKU coach Ken Shields.
"You can't make chicken salad out of chicken sh*t", in other words, at some point you need talent. That point for UC has traditionally come in the second round of the tourney.
 
11-25-2014 04:58 PM
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RE: Mick Cronin: Bearcats need to get tougher
(11-25-2014 04:58 PM)BeerCat Wrote:  
(11-25-2014 02:31 PM)Cal1362 Wrote:  If you were recruiting your own team at a high D1 level, would you honestly have built your team around Kirkpatrick, Jackson and Rubles? But by their senior year, would 99% of NCAA D1 teams want them? Absolutely. Why? Because they were tougher than nails and never took anything for granted. EVER. But they had to learn too -- they just never had to learn 7 at a team. This team will be fine, I trust Mick that much. Give them time to grow and learn to be "UC tough".

NO F'ING WAY.

SK may hve started for some top 25 teams, I even think he would have come off the bench. JJ and Rubles are an absolute no.

Heart and toughness only get you so far.

I've put this quote on the board before, it is one of my favorite quotes. It's from former NKU coach Ken Shields.
"You can't make chicken salad out of chicken sh*t", in other words, at some point you need talent. That point for UC has traditionally come in the second round of the tourney.


I'm sorry, but there's no way that every high division 1 team had a power forward on JJ's level last year. He was playing out of position as a center and was still killing it. As for SK, he ate Russ Smith and Shabazz Napier alive head to head. There's no way in hell he's a sixth man on any team as an upper classman. He was bulky, could score in a variety of ways and was a cold blooded killer from 3 multiple times.
 
(This post was last modified: 11-25-2014 05:19 PM by DMT.)
11-25-2014 05:16 PM
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RE: Mick Cronin: Bearcats need to get tougher
I don't think Ken Shields came up with that quote. And it's ridiculous to think most if not all Top 25 teams would have liked to have SK in their starting lineup. I could even make that argument for the national champs - SK was better than Boatright imo.
 
11-25-2014 05:18 PM
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RE: Mick Cronin: Bearcats need to get tougher
(11-25-2014 04:58 PM)BeerCat Wrote:  
(11-25-2014 02:31 PM)Cal1362 Wrote:  If you were recruiting your own team at a high D1 level, would you honestly have built your team around Kirkpatrick, Jackson and Rubles? But by their senior year, would 99% of NCAA D1 teams want them? Absolutely. Why? Because they were tougher than nails and never took anything for granted. EVER. But they had to learn too -- they just never had to learn 7 at a team. This team will be fine, I trust Mick that much. Give them time to grow and learn to be "UC tough".

NO F'ING WAY.

SK may hve started for some top 25 teams, I even think he would have come off the bench. JJ and Rubles are an absolute no.

Heart and toughness only get you so far.

I've put this quote on the board before, it is one of my favorite quotes. It's from former NKU coach Ken Shields.
"You can't make chicken salad out of chicken sh*t", in other words, at some point you need talent. That point for UC has traditionally come in the second round of the tourney.

THIS.

With all due respect I just find it a lil hard to believe one can't have an offense b/c your school isn't a destination for AAs. Furthermore, I ain't buying that the notion that a school's style of play is hard coded. Look at OSU. From Woody Hayes' 3 yards and a cloud of dust to now Urban's spread.

At the end of the day this is a results oriented business and quite frankly this style of basketball is antiquated and predictable. Huggs had his heydey with it, and helped Mick become who he is. The problem is the style rarely bares positive results in the tourney. Iso ball is so 90s. It's a relic of the past.

I remain firm in the belief that you can't be a great coach if you only can coach one side of the game. Possessions flip back and forth from offense to defense within a matter of seconds. It's incredibly frustrating knowing that our coach has yet to figure out how to recruit the players necessary, and/ or run effective sets. No one is calling for finesse teams.....we're just looking to see a team that you know....seemingly has an offensive gameplan.....beyond iso dribbling and chucking.

Ah well.....we're all on the same side here. Go Cats!



mc
 
(This post was last modified: 11-25-2014 05:33 PM by marcuscan.)
11-25-2014 05:32 PM
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RE: Mick Cronin: Bearcats need to get tougher
(11-25-2014 05:16 PM)DMT Wrote:  I'm sorry, but there's no way that every high division 1 team had a power forward on JJ's level last year. He was playing out of position as a center and was still killing it. As for SK, he ate Russ Smith and Shabazz Napier alive head to head. There's no way in hell he's a sixth man on any team as an upper classman. He was bulky, could score in a variety of ways and was a cold blooded killer from 3 multiple times.


(11-25-2014 05:18 PM)InspectorHound Wrote:  I don't think Ken Shields came up with that quote. And it's ridiculous to think most if not all Top 25 teams would have liked to have SK in their starting lineup. I could even make that argument for the national champs - SK was better than Boatright imo.

Look, I realize I won't win this argument on this board, I too am a UC fan and I am glad SK played here and was successful. However, the guy had some serious holes in his game, most notably his ball handling was atrocious. There's a reason Napier got drafted and SK was looking around for a D League team to give him a chance.
 
11-25-2014 05:42 PM
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