Hmm, wasn't just confined to Atlanta

http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/...arder.html

Wonder how widespread this really is. Looks like public school teachers are failing far worse than we realized.

When you incentivize people to cheat in order to keep their job they are going to cheat... that simple.

(11-24-2014 02:14 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  Hmm, wasn't just confined to Atlanta

http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/...arder.html

Wonder how widespread this really is. Looks like public school teachers are failing far worse than we realized.

Here's the problem in a nutshell - as long as we are going to tie a teachers success or failure on standardized test results - this is what we end up with.

To compare a teacher of inner city kids whose parents have IQ's around 70, there is no stable home life, and the parents can't manage to take care of themselves let alone their offspring with kids from parents that are both college graduates, realize the importance of education and make sure junior does his homework is laughable.

Just as we know that "one size fits all" is stupid for healthcare, so it is for education.

Teaching in the inner city as opposed to an affluent suburb is just a vastly different proposition - and it's really not fair to compare the two to the same standards.

It's the elephant in the room that everyone pretends is not there. It's not PC to admit that some kids are dumb and have parents that don't care, and that these kids will likely not have the same successes.

You are exactly right, Crebman. I now have a friend who was an inner city Dayton Public Schools teacher. Got fired because the school as a whole was not performing to where they should according tot he standardized tests. She was then hired by a suburban district and not only is she considered one of the best teachers in the district, her kids are all scoring great. What has she changed? Nothing directly... she has always worked with the hand she was dealt. She works hard, but got caught up in a stupid state system that says if a school fails that it fires the staff and gets new staff. They don't look at the issues at home that you mentioned above.

The problem is not the scores on the tests, but the tests themselves.

(11-24-2014 02:32 PM)Crebman Wrote:  

(11-24-2014 02:14 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  Hmm, wasn't just confined to Atlanta

http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/...arder.html

Wonder how widespread this really is. Looks like public school teachers are failing far worse than we realized.

Here's the problem in a nutshell - as long as we are going to tie a teachers success or failure on standardized test results - this is what we end up with.

To compare a teacher of inner city kids whose parents have IQ's around 70, there is no stable home life, and the parents can't manage to take care of themselves let alone their offspring with kids from parents that are both college graduates, realize the importance of education and make sure junior does his homework is laughable.

Just as we know that "one size fits all" is stupid for healthcare, so it is for education.

Teaching in the inner city as opposed to an affluent suburb is just a vastly different proposition - and it's really not fair to compare the two to the same standards.

It's the elephant in the room that everyone pretends is not there. It's not PC to admit that some kids are dumb and have parents that don't care, and that these kids will likely not have the same successes.

I understand. But all of the professional educators involved in these scandals are avowedly pro-PC and pro-leftist. They're all about finding ways to get money for themselves, not educating. In fact many of them have those low IQs themselves, and adore the system that let them achieve such relatively high incomes and status.

The issue at hand isn't the capacity of people to get a standardized education. They can. It's the educational system itself. It needs to be modeled after pro-business corporatist systems like you see in Scandinavian Europe.

Ever wonder why Germany's economy, and the Scandinavian countries' too, is so much better than ours? Good educational system that is able to identify the skills of these lower-capacity workers and place them where they're needed.

We are caught in an unholy trinity.

1) We have "REQUIRED" that the whole spectrum of kids take the most stringent of classes. We want to raise standards. This is equivalent to requiring every recruit in the armed forces take the Special Forces route. Let's make every recruit in the Army out to be a Ranger. Every recruit in the Navy out to be a SEAL. Sounds Great. Holy Crap they have a bell where they celebrate when a guy taps out with three rings in BUDS school. It's a source of pride that you made it where others have failed. That would motivate me. We do the exact opposite in schools.

2) We as teachers are graded publicly on how many kids reach that certain level. Think for a second where you would focus your energy. Teachers are no different. I know my top 30-40% are going to make it no matter what I do. I have to really focus on my bottom 30-40%. I want to make darn sure they are not demoralized. I'm going to spoon feed the kids in my class. I'm going to coddle them. I get the top scores in my county. I would show you but I've pissed off too many on here and I don't want it to come back and bite me. You'll just have to trust me. I kick A** on these things because I make sure everyone of my kids are exposed to a standard at a level they get it at. I cover the majority of my material at a superficial Knowledge level. My kids can spit it back to me but I'm sure they don't have the deeper meaning. Maybe 10% of my kids actually get the material by having a fundamental understanding of it. It's a charade. A sham but I play the game and I play it very well. I'm positive the brightest of the kids in my class are bored and this was not the case 10 years ago. It's a damn shame.

3. We are driven by these tests and they keep changing the standards. We have had three major changes in curriculum in the last ten years and I'm positive we will have another change with Common Core here real soon. We are a political football and the Powers that be are doing their damndest to ruin public ed. You would NEVER do what you are doing if you wanted public ed to be successful. NO ONE WOULD RUN THEIR BUSINESS THIS WAY!! The tail wags the dog.

(11-24-2014 03:16 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  We are caught in an unholy trinity.

1) We have "REQUIRED" that the whole spectrum of kids take the most stringent of classes. We want to raise standards. This is equivalent to requiring every recruit in the armed forces take the Special Forces route. Let's make every recruit in the Army out to be a Ranger. Every recruit in the Navy out to be a SEAL. Sounds Great. Holy Crap they have a bell and they celebrate when a guy taps out with three rings in BUDS school. It's a source of pride that you made it where others have failed. That would motivate me. We do the exact opposite in schools.

2) We as teachers are graded publicly on how many kids reach that certain level. Think for a second where you would focus your energy. Teachers are no different. I know my top 30-40% are going to make it now matter what I do. I have to really focus on my bottom 30-40%. I want to make darn sure they are not demoralized. I'm going to spoon feed the kids in my class. I'm going to coddle them. I get the top scores in my county. I would show you but I've pissed off too many on here and I don't want it to come back and bite me. You'll just have to trust me. I kick A** on these things because I make sure everyone of my kids are exposed to a standard at a level they get it at. I cover the majority of my material at a superficial Knowledge level. My gets can spit it back to me but I'm sure they don't have the deeper meaning. Maybe 10% of my kids actually get the material. Have a fundamental understanding of it. It's a charade. A sham but I play the game and I play it very well. I'm positive the brightest of the kids in my class are bored and this was not the case 10 years ago. It's a damn shame.

3. We are driven by these tests and they keep changing the standards. We have had three major changes in curriculum in the last ten years and I'm positive we will have another change with Common Core here real soon. We are a political football and the Powers that be are doing their damndest to ruin public ed. You would NEVER do what you are doing if you wanted public ed to be successful. NO ONE WOULD RUN THEIR BUSINESS THIS WAY!! The tail wags the dog.

Worth noting that you know nothing about running a business.

Also worth noting that you have no problem when TPTB argue for greater funding for schools, and greater control over the public itself.

Wrong Again Torchy.

Ran two businesses and put myself through college, but keep your hate on. Had my own painting company and did very well with a Karoke machine business in college. Played two weekend gigs for the better part of two winters in bars around NW Ohio.

TPTB argue for greater funding for schools.?????????????? What planet are you on???????

(11-24-2014 03:28 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  TPTB argue for greater funding for schools.?????????????? What planet are you on???????

Facts are facts. Even though you're not fond of them.

Ok Torch.


http://www.policymattersohio.org/budget-oct2013

In Ohio you are wrong.

Honestly Torch.

We don't have a constructive dialogue. Our conversations go nowhere and I'm done feeding into the lunacy. Find someone else to spar with. I'm done with you.

(11-24-2014 03:54 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Ok Torch.


http://www.policymattersohio.org/budget-oct2013

In Ohio you are wrong.

So you present a partisan opinion paper, for one year in one state as proof?

That low caliber of research doesn't meet any level of quality I'd accept. However, you routinely seem comfortable with it.

(11-24-2014 03:58 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Honestly Torch.

We don't have a constructive dialogue. Our conversations go nowhere and I'm done feeding into the lunacy. Find someone else to spar with. I'm done with you.

EXCELLENT

(11-24-2014 02:32 PM)Crebman Wrote:  

(11-24-2014 02:14 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  Hmm, wasn't just confined to Atlanta

http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/...arder.html

Wonder how widespread this really is. Looks like public school teachers are failing far worse than we realized.

Here's the problem in a nutshell - as long as we are going to tie a teachers success or failure on standardized test results - this is what we end up with.

To compare a teacher of inner city kids whose parents have IQ's around 70, there is no stable home life, and the parents can't manage to take care of themselves let alone their offspring with kids from parents that are both college graduates, realize the importance of education and make sure junior does his homework is laughable.

Just as we know that "one size fits all" is stupid for healthcare, so it is for education.

Teaching in the inner city as opposed to an affluent suburb is just a vastly different proposition - and it's really not fair to compare the two to the same standards.

It's the elephant in the room that everyone pretends is not there. It's not PC to admit that some kids are dumb and have parents that don't care, and that these kids will likely not have the same successes.

Agree 100% with this. The best teacher in the world might be able to go into the worst school district and impact a few lives, but his or her test scores just aren't going to compare with those in areas where the culture is 2 parents that can provide a safe environment where education is a priority.

(11-24-2014 03:06 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(11-24-2014 02:32 PM)Crebman Wrote:  

(11-24-2014 02:14 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  Hmm, wasn't just confined to Atlanta

http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/...arder.html

Wonder how widespread this really is. Looks like public school teachers are failing far worse than we realized.

Here's the problem in a nutshell - as long as we are going to tie a teachers success or failure on standardized test results - this is what we end up with.

To compare a teacher of inner city kids whose parents have IQ's around 70, there is no stable home life, and the parents can't manage to take care of themselves let alone their offspring with kids from parents that are both college graduates, realize the importance of education and make sure junior does his homework is laughable.

Just as we know that "one size fits all" is stupid for healthcare, so it is for education.

Teaching in the inner city as opposed to an affluent suburb is just a vastly different proposition - and it's really not fair to compare the two to the same standards.

It's the elephant in the room that everyone pretends is not there. It's not PC to admit that some kids are dumb and have parents that don't care, and that these kids will likely not have the same successes.

I understand. But all of the professional educators involved in these scandals are avowedly pro-PC and pro-leftist. They're all about finding ways to get money for themselves, not educating. In fact many of them have those low IQs themselves, and adore the system that let them achieve such relatively high incomes and status.

And this is just as true as Crebman's post.

(11-24-2014 02:32 PM)Crebman Wrote:  Here's the problem in a nutshell - as long as we are going to tie a teachers success or failure on standardized test results - this is what we end up with.

So how do you propose to evaluate teacher success or failure?

What are the standards?
What are the metrics?
How do we obtain and evaluate data?

(11-24-2014 06:16 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(11-24-2014 02:32 PM)Crebman Wrote:  Here's the problem in a nutshell - as long as we are going to tie a teachers success or failure on standardized test results - this is what we end up with.

So how do you propose to evaluate teacher success or failure?

What are the standards?
What are the metrics?
How do we obtain and evaluate data?

Look, I'm not against testing. I believe that testing is a necessary part of teacher evaluations. With that said, how any evaluation system can choose to ignore the inputs is beyond me. How stupid is it to ignore IQ? It's akin to saying the PE teacher is a failure because every student in class can't run a 13 flat 100 meter dash.

We would never consider holding every child to the same physical standard - yet we do for mental capacity. Why, because it's the easy, lazy "one size fits all" way that government operates.

(11-24-2014 03:10 PM)Ole Blue Wrote:  The issue at hand isn't the capacity of people to get a standardized education. They can. It's the educational system itself. It needs to be modeled after pro-business corporatist systems like you see in Scandinavian Europe.

Ever wonder why Germany's economy, and the Scandinavian countries' too, is so much better than ours? Good educational system that is able to identify the skills of these lower-capacity workers and place them where they're needed.

You will never, ever get libs, Dems, and socialists to adopt a pro-business educational model. To them, private enterprise is not a partner; it's the enemy.