I think that people who act like Pastner has destroyed the program need to understand that we are a TV, tournament, and recruiting mainstay and have sustained an impressive level of success and remember that we are still very relevant.

I think that people who brook no criticism of Pastner and disregard the occasional curb stomping we inevitably take when we move up in weight class need to understand that the lack of second weekend doesn't bother many fans (the tourney is a crap shoot), it is the fact that our last game in the NCAAs has been a stomping recently.

Lot of good.
Lot of bad.

If you can't see both sides of this, you're not looking very hard.

Big question is this. Does Josh Pastner have the ability to eventually have our guys compete (not win, compete) against top 10 programs consistently. Because if you consistently compete in those games, you break through eventually (small sample size, match ups, etc).

If the answer is yes (even if it is not true yet), he stays, builds, and eventually we are cooking with gas.
If the answer is no, I hope he is no longer our coach.

I don't know what the answer is. I get the feeling watching our teams, we are missing just one thing. Like Pastner hasn't found a way to distill his message to bullet points and get buy in from the players consistently.

Count me as someone who thinks he eventually figures it out. I do wonder if it will be here however.

We'll see.

Just remember, the narrative is rarely black/white or binary. Both the pro/con arguments have a LOT of ammo...

(11-22-2014 03:16 PM)Sundanceuiuc Wrote:  I think that people who act like Pastner has destroyed the program need to understand that we are a TV, tournament, and recruiting mainstay and have sustained an impressive level of success and remember that we are still very relevant.

I think that people who brook no criticism of Pastner and disregard the occasional curb stomping we inevitably take when we move up in weight class need to understand that the lack of second weekend doesn't bother many fans (the tourney is a crap shoot), it is the fact that our last game in the NCAAs has been a stomping recently.

Lot of good.
Lot of bad.

If you can't see both sides of this, you're not looking very hard.

Big question is this. Does Josh Pastner have the ability to eventually have our guys compete (not win, compete) against top 10 programs consistently. Because if you consistently compete in those games, you break through eventually (small sample size, match ups, etc).

If the answer is yes (even if it is not true yet), he stays, builds, and eventually we are cooking with gas.
If the answer is no, I hope he is no longer our coach.

I don't know what the answer is. I get the feeling watching our teams, we are missing just one thing. Like Pastner hasn't found a way to distill his message to bullet points and get buy in from the players consistently.

Count me as someone who thinks he eventually figures it out. I do wonder if it will be here however.

We'll see.

Just remember, the narrative is rarely black/white or binary. Both the pro/con arguments have a LOT of ammo...

I think Pastner really knows the game and knows what he want players to do. However, he seems to have very poor skills in communicating it, at least to 18 - 22 year old BB players. I don't know if he will improve on this or not.

(11-23-2014 12:05 PM)presskh Wrote:  

(11-22-2014 03:16 PM)Sundanceuiuc Wrote:  I think that people who act like Pastner has destroyed the program need to understand that we are a TV, tournament, and recruiting mainstay and have sustained an impressive level of success and remember that we are still very relevant.

I think that people who brook no criticism of Pastner and disregard the occasional curb stomping we inevitably take when we move up in weight class need to understand that the lack of second weekend doesn't bother many fans (the tourney is a crap shoot), it is the fact that our last game in the NCAAs has been a stomping recently.

Lot of good.
Lot of bad.

If you can't see both sides of this, you're not looking very hard.

Big question is this. Does Josh Pastner have the ability to eventually have our guys compete (not win, compete) against top 10 programs consistently. Because if you consistently compete in those games, you break through eventually (small sample size, match ups, etc).

If the answer is yes (even if it is not true yet), he stays, builds, and eventually we are cooking with gas.
If the answer is no, I hope he is no longer our coach.

I don't know what the answer is. I get the feeling watching our teams, we are missing just one thing. Like Pastner hasn't found a way to distill his message to bullet points and get buy in from the players consistently.

Count me as someone who thinks he eventually figures it out. I do wonder if it will be here however.

We'll see.

Just remember, the narrative is rarely black/white or binary. Both the pro/con arguments have a LOT of ammo...

I think Pastner really knows the game and knows what he want players to do. However, he seems to have very poor skills in communicating it, at least to 18 - 22 year old BB players. I don't know if he will improve on this or not.

This sounds fairly accurate. I think if it is a communication issue on concepts and not generally, that will be worked out and improve with experience.

My larger concern is his demeanor and attitude doesn't speak to the necessary "dark impulses" that control rebounding and defense. Nice guys share the ball and move without the ball, because it si collaborative (and the Tigers do this very well). Mean people get the rock off the glass and throw their weight around. You need both. I want Pastner to keep his apparent strong positive attitude while allowing himself JUST ENOUGH of an edge to understand the "Brass knuckles" parts of basketball…

He needs a mean assistant. Just a jerk. Would help a lot I feel.

(11-23-2014 12:57 PM)Sundanceuiuc Wrote:  

(11-23-2014 12:05 PM)presskh Wrote:  

(11-22-2014 03:16 PM)Sundanceuiuc Wrote:  I think that people who act like Pastner has destroyed the program need to understand that we are a TV, tournament, and recruiting mainstay and have sustained an impressive level of success and remember that we are still very relevant.

I think that people who brook no criticism of Pastner and disregard the occasional curb stomping we inevitably take when we move up in weight class need to understand that the lack of second weekend doesn't bother many fans (the tourney is a crap shoot), it is the fact that our last game in the NCAAs has been a stomping recently.

Lot of good.
Lot of bad.

If you can't see both sides of this, you're not looking very hard.

Big question is this. Does Josh Pastner have the ability to eventually have our guys compete (not win, compete) against top 10 programs consistently. Because if you consistently compete in those games, you break through eventually (small sample size, match ups, etc).

If the answer is yes (even if it is not true yet), he stays, builds, and eventually we are cooking with gas.
If the answer is no, I hope he is no longer our coach.

I don't know what the answer is. I get the feeling watching our teams, we are missing just one thing. Like Pastner hasn't found a way to distill his message to bullet points and get buy in from the players consistently.

Count me as someone who thinks he eventually figures it out. I do wonder if it will be here however.

We'll see.

Just remember, the narrative is rarely black/white or binary. Both the pro/con arguments have a LOT of ammo...

I think Pastner really knows the game and knows what he want players to do. However, he seems to have very poor skills in communicating it, at least to 18 - 22 year old BB players. I don't know if he will improve on this or not.

This sounds fairly accurate. I think if it is a communication issue on concepts and not generally, that will be worked out and improve with experience.

My larger concern is his demeanor and attitude doesn't speak to the necessary "dark impulses" that control rebounding and defense. Nice guys share the ball and move without the ball, because it si collaborative (and the Tigers do this very well). Mean people get the rock off the glass and throw their weight around. You need both. I want Pastner to keep his apparent strong positive attitude while allowing himself JUST ENOUGH of an edge to understand the "Brass knuckles" parts of basketball…

He needs a mean assistant. Just a jerk. Would help a lot I feel.

Fundamentally flash cards are symbolic of an inability to verbally communicate effectively. How many other coaches in D1 are using those right now?

The fewer words in a game situation, the better. Gotta distill it down to bullet points, as was said above, or maybe have the good coach/bad coach approach.

As for Bigs....developing them is more complex than it looks. All the BB Bigs I've ever met in person were soft spoken, gentle-giant types. They didn't have an edge.

Recently, I asked this 6'10" JUCO Center why he wasn't muscling his way in more and he said something funny:

"Mama's been yelling at me my whole life to stay outta people's way, and now I'm s'posed to crash into 'em. "

(11-19-2014 11:44 AM)Tiger46 Wrote:  

(11-19-2014 10:38 AM)bluebacker Wrote:  2009-10: 24-10 unranked. NIT second round (thank you Elliot Williams!)

2010-11: 25-10 unranked. NCAA round of 64 (12 seed, almost beat Arizona)

2011-12: 26-9 unranked. NCAA round of 64 (8 seed, lost to St. Louis)

2012-13: 31-5 ranked 19th in AP / 15th in USA Today. NCAA tournament round of 32. (6 seed lost badly to Michigan State)

2013-14: 24-10 ranked 19th in one final regular season poll unranked in final poll. NCAA tournament round of 32. (8 seed lost badly to Virginia)


1 NIT (1-1)
4 NCAAs (2-4) seeds: 6,8,8,12

Two years end of regular season Top 25 rankings
One year final poll Top 25 ranking


I think these results are a bit shy of calling it a Top 25 resume; more like 35-45.....

I really think we can do better than this (CUSA was really weak).

Have we been worse? Sure, but not with the level of facilities, the attendance and support, and the salary we have / can offer these days.

As Stammers said in another post: Everyone is going to get what they want this year. We're going to find out if JP can coach or not.

Being in year 6 and having to ask the question is not a positive.


What would reasonable expectations for the program be?

I think making the NCAA tournament 4 out of 5 years with a sweet 16 run or deeper every 3-4 years. I'm basing this on the support and resources the program has access to. Top 20 facilities, top 20 salaries, and top 20 attendance. It doesn't hurt that Memphis is a hot bed for high school basketball.

I have those same expectations. Especially when you inherit a program that just went 137-14 the previous four years. With a proven system. Cal's team had an identity.

And it wasn't from that hotbed of high school basketball.

(11-23-2014 01:20 PM)snowtiger Wrote:  The fewer words in a game situation, the better. Gotta distill it down to bullet points, as was said above, or maybe have the good coach/bad coach approach.

As for Bigs....developing them is more complex than it looks. All the BB Bigs I've ever met in person were soft spoken, gentle-giant types. They didn't have an edge.

Recently, I asked this 6'10" JUCO Center why he wasn't muscling his way in more and he said something funny:

"Mama's been yelling at me my whole life to stay outta people's way, and now I'm s'posed to crash into 'em. "

So much of this post wreaks of bologna.

(11-22-2014 03:16 PM)Sundanceuiuc Wrote:  I think that people who act like Pastner has destroyed the program need to understand that we are a TV, tournament, and recruiting mainstay and have sustained an impressive level of success and remember that we are still very relevant.

I think that people who brook no criticism of Pastner and disregard the occasional curb stomping we inevitably take when we move up in weight class need to understand that the lack of second weekend doesn't bother many fans (the tourney is a crap shoot), it is the fact that our last game in the NCAAs has been a stomping recently.

Lot of good.
Lot of bad.

If you can't see both sides of this, you're not looking very hard.

Big question is this. Does Josh Pastner have the ability to eventually have our guys compete (not win, compete) against top 10 programs consistently. Because if you consistently compete in those games, you break through eventually (small sample size, match ups, etc).

If the answer is yes (even if it is not true yet), he stays, builds, and eventually we are cooking with gas.
If the answer is no, I hope he is no longer our coach.

I don't know what the answer is. I get the feeling watching our teams, we are missing just one thing. Like Pastner hasn't found a way to distill his message to bullet points and get buy in from the players consistently.

Count me as someone who thinks he eventually figures it out. I do wonder if it will be here however.

We'll see.

Just remember, the narrative is rarely black/white or binary. Both the pro/con arguments have a LOT of ammo...

Yes.

Love this guy!

(11-23-2014 01:00 PM)Malachi Wrote:  

(11-23-2014 12:57 PM)Sundanceuiuc Wrote:  

(11-23-2014 12:05 PM)presskh Wrote:  

(11-22-2014 03:16 PM)Sundanceuiuc Wrote:  I think that people who act like Pastner has destroyed the program need to understand that we are a TV, tournament, and recruiting mainstay and have sustained an impressive level of success and remember that we are still very relevant.

I think that people who brook no criticism of Pastner and disregard the occasional curb stomping we inevitably take when we move up in weight class need to understand that the lack of second weekend doesn't bother many fans (the tourney is a crap shoot), it is the fact that our last game in the NCAAs has been a stomping recently.

Lot of good.
Lot of bad.

If you can't see both sides of this, you're not looking very hard.

Big question is this. Does Josh Pastner have the ability to eventually have our guys compete (not win, compete) against top 10 programs consistently. Because if you consistently compete in those games, you break through eventually (small sample size, match ups, etc).

If the answer is yes (even if it is not true yet), he stays, builds, and eventually we are cooking with gas.
If the answer is no, I hope he is no longer our coach.

I don't know what the answer is. I get the feeling watching our teams, we are missing just one thing. Like Pastner hasn't found a way to distill his message to bullet points and get buy in from the players consistently.

Count me as someone who thinks he eventually figures it out. I do wonder if it will be here however.

We'll see.

Just remember, the narrative is rarely black/white or binary. Both the pro/con arguments have a LOT of ammo...

I think Pastner really knows the game and knows what he want players to do. However, he seems to have very poor skills in communicating it, at least to 18 - 22 year old BB players. I don't know if he will improve on this or not.

This sounds fairly accurate. I think if it is a communication issue on concepts and not generally, that will be worked out and improve with experience.

My larger concern is his demeanor and attitude doesn't speak to the necessary "dark impulses" that control rebounding and defense. Nice guys share the ball and move without the ball, because it si collaborative (and the Tigers do this very well). Mean people get the rock off the glass and throw their weight around. You need both. I want Pastner to keep his apparent strong positive attitude while allowing himself JUST ENOUGH of an edge to understand the "Brass knuckles" parts of basketball…

He needs a mean assistant. Just a jerk. Would help a lot I feel.

Fundamentally flash cards are symbolic of an inability to verbally communicate effectively. How many other coaches in D1 are using those right now?

I really don't mind the flashcards. Honestly, I think those are to his credit. He is willing to not worry about how he looks to communicate the best he can. While I laugh as much as the next guy, I don't hate them in function.

It's just rebounding and focus on defense. That's it. I really am starting to think it is a personality thing. Josh Pastner is (by all accounts, I've never met him) a superlative human being who respects his players and treats them like men while distilling a sense of team based on collaboration.

That yields an offense that is generally selfless and yields quality shots when played to it's logical end. That is honestly how the Tigers have generally looked. The Tigers get good shots under Pastner and move the ball. I really enjoy the way our offense has worked under Pastner the past few years in concept (2nd half of WSU I am actually more than willing to put on an entire new backcourt).

Having said that, nice guys don't like to get dirty and fight. I have a feeling that Pastner wants to win a certain way and wants a certain type of team. That is to his credit and totally respectable and understandable. But combine the lack of weight training with the lack of aggression on defense and focus I think it is fair to say Pastner's teams have been collaborative, able to move the ball, at times beautiful, and sometimes a bit soft.

What needs to happen in my opinion is this team needs to find a way to embrace some of the darker arts of basketball (hand checking, bodying your opponent, intimidation) that it seems are lacking in Pastner's tenure. I think the reason these traits are lacking has a lot to do with his personality.

This is NOT fact, but an opinion.

And it is NOT grounds for firing a guy. Offense is much harder to coach in my opinion and coaching passing and movement hardest. If you watch the Tigers, they generally do a lot of good things when they have the ball (last few years, this year with new guards, we'll see). But the defense and rebounding have lagged behind the offense for years.

If Pastner can find a junk yard D coordinator and concentrate on what he is best at (offensive philosophy, recruiting, positive preparation) and pass off those traits he needs help with (dark arts, defense), he can have a right hand man and really start to build on his already decent level of success here.

Most elite coaches have a guy who sits by their side as a helper or sounding board. Calipari has Robic, Boeheim has Hopkins. It is NOT a sign of weakness to fill out a staff to help you with filling in some blanks.

If Pastner found a junkyard dog to help with the Defense and Boards, this team and his tenure would go from good to potentially great immediately. He has the knowledge, work ethic, and offensive smarts to be elite. He just needs a 'bouncer'.

Just my opinion, I could be 100% wrong.

(11-23-2014 07:15 PM)MemphisCanes Wrote:  

(11-23-2014 01:20 PM)snowtiger Wrote:  The fewer words in a game situation, the better. Gotta distill it down to bullet points, as was said above, or maybe have the good coach/bad coach approach.

As for Bigs....developing them is more complex than it looks. All the BB Bigs I've ever met in person were soft spoken, gentle-giant types. They didn't have an edge.

Recently, I asked this 6'10" JUCO Center why he wasn't muscling his way in more and he said something funny:

"Mama's been yelling at me my whole life to stay outta people's way, and now I'm s'posed to crash into 'em. "

So much of this post wreaks of bologna.

BBQ? I hope it's BBQ'd bologna.

(11-23-2014 07:38 PM)tiger2000 Wrote:  

(11-23-2014 07:15 PM)MemphisCanes Wrote:  

(11-23-2014 01:20 PM)snowtiger Wrote:  The fewer words in a game situation, the better. Gotta distill it down to bullet points, as was said above, or maybe have the good coach/bad coach approach.

As for Bigs....developing them is more complex than it looks. All the BB Bigs I've ever met in person were soft spoken, gentle-giant types. They didn't have an edge.

Recently, I asked this 6'10" JUCO Center why he wasn't muscling his way in more and he said something funny:

"Mama's been yelling at me my whole life to stay outta people's way, and now I'm s'posed to crash into 'em. "

So much of this post wreaks of bologna.

BBQ? I hope it's BBQ'd bologna.

Tofu Bologna. The worst kind.

(11-23-2014 08:31 PM)MemphisCanes Wrote:  

(11-23-2014 07:38 PM)tiger2000 Wrote:  

(11-23-2014 07:15 PM)MemphisCanes Wrote:  

(11-23-2014 01:20 PM)snowtiger Wrote:  The fewer words in a game situation, the better. Gotta distill it down to bullet points, as was said above, or maybe have the good coach/bad coach approach.

As for Bigs....developing them is more complex than it looks. All the BB Bigs I've ever met in person were soft spoken, gentle-giant types. They didn't have an edge.

Recently, I asked this 6'10" JUCO Center why he wasn't muscling his way in more and he said something funny:

"Mama's been yelling at me my whole life to stay outta people's way, and now I'm s'posed to crash into 'em. "

So much of this post wreaks of bologna.

BBQ? I hope it's BBQ'd bologna.

Tofu Bologna. The worst kind.

1 inch thick bbq Bologna! The best! But I'd only recommend eating once per year on the 4th...heart attack!