In the summer of 2010, the PAC invited Texas, Texas a&m, Texas tech, Colorado, Oklahoma and Oklahoma St to the PAC. Nebraska immediately joined big 10. A&M got cold feet, LHN created issues etc and things ended up differently. If those 6 would've gone, what would've happened to Missouri, Iowa st, Kansas st, Kansas and Baylor? Was the big east attempting to invite the left over 5? Or just northern 4 as Baylor was at least talking to the MWC.--9 team league w/ Utah, TCU and BYU then. Anyone?

If the PAC 16 came into existence it would:

The Big XII leftovers would've merged with the Big East.

I still believe until this day if you replace Rice with Baylor, the Pac-16 would be in existence today. I'm not saying Rice had any chance back then or in the future for that matter but if they were in the Big XII since the beginning instead of Baylor, the Pac-10 would've been fine with Rice since at least it's an academic equal to Stanford, Berkeley, UCLA and USC. Baylor is the Southern Baptist version of BYU and having Kenneth "let's impeach Bill Clinton" Starr as its president was too much for the Clintonistas in the West Coast. That's why they rushed to invite Colorado first that way they thought the other Big XII South schools had no choice but to leave Baylor behind. Utah was plan B and when ESPN saved the Big XII in the last minute, Utah hit the jackpot.

(11-03-2014 11:57 PM)UTEPDallas Wrote:  The Big XII leftovers would've merged with the Big East.

I still believe until this day if you replace Rice with Baylor, the Pac-16 would be in existence today. I'm not saying Rice had any chance back then or in the future for that matter but if they were in the Big XII since the beginning instead of Baylor, the Pac-10 would've been fine with Rice since at least it's an academic equal to Stanford, Berkeley, UCLA and USC. Baylor is the Southern Baptist version of BYU and having Kenneth "let's impeach Bill Clinton" Starr as its president was too much for the Clintonistas in the West Coast. That's why they rushed to invite Colorado first that way they thought the other Big XII South schools had no choice but to leave Baylor behind. Utah was plan B and when ESPN saved the Big XII in the last minute, Utah hit the jackpot.

Thanks, ya I know Utah wasn't in the original plan and got lucky when things fell apart on 16. Would Baylor have gotten in to BE THEN. At that moment they were only big 12 to never have a winning record or make in the entire big 12 history. Plus then politics with ken Starr etc. would've been hard for some of those east coast schools to swallow (no Clinton/lewinski reference) Baylor was actually desperate enough to contact tcu about the MWC. I remember hearing that....

(11-03-2014 11:57 PM)UTEPDallas Wrote:  The Big XII leftovers would've merged with the Big East.

You mean members of the AAC and MWC would be invited to the Big 12.

(11-04-2014 12:30 AM)BamaScorpio69 Wrote:  

(11-03-2014 11:57 PM)UTEPDallas Wrote:  The Big XII leftovers would've merged with the Big East.

You mean members of the AAC and MWC would be invited to the Big 12.

No. He means the remains of the B-12 and old Big East would have merged. The MW would have suffered no damage. CUSA would have been largely untouched (I think there was some talk of including UCF in the deal). Luck has mentioned several times that the framework was basically in place to make sure the B-12 leftovers would end up with a decent landing spot in the Big East along with BE non-football members (the C7 and Notre Dame).

(11-04-2014 12:30 AM)BamaScorpio69 Wrote:  

(11-03-2014 11:57 PM)UTEPDallas Wrote:  The Big XII leftovers would've merged with the Big East.

You mean members of the AAC and MWC would be invited to the Big 12.

Yes and no. Back in June 2010 when all of this was going on, I remember reading Kansas contacted the Big East if they had any interest in the Jayhawks in case the Big XII folded. TCU was just invited to the Big East a few months before right before their Rose Bowl win. It still had Pitt and Syracuse and the Catholic schools were still in it. What we don't know is if in an scenario where the Big XII was left with 4 schools if they had the power to attract a few Big East and MWC schools or had gone the way of the SWC with the four remaining schools going elsewhere.

I still believe Pitt and Syracuse would've accepted the ACC invite a year later and Rutgers and Louisville would've left as well since a reformed Big XII or an expanded Big East couldn't match what the ACC and Big Ten offered. Probably the SEC would've still gone to 14 with Missouri and West Virginia (since A&M would've been in the Pac-16 East). But we'll never know.

Coulda, shoulda, woulda is just that. But it would've been interested to see what would've happened if the Pac-16 materialized.

Here's some links from back then:

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/ucathlet.../10325391/

http://www.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry...8/26163006

http://www.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry...8/26163006

http://collegefootballtalk.nbcsports.com...-big-east/

http://www.dallasnews.com/sports/college...t-7846.ece

(11-04-2014 12:10 AM)billybobby777 Wrote:  

(11-03-2014 11:57 PM)UTEPDallas Wrote:  The Big XII leftovers would've merged with the Big East.

I still believe until this day if you replace Rice with Baylor, the Pac-16 would be in existence today. I'm not saying Rice had any chance back then or in the future for that matter but if they were in the Big XII since the beginning instead of Baylor, the Pac-10 would've been fine with Rice since at least it's an academic equal to Stanford, Berkeley, UCLA and USC. Baylor is the Southern Baptist version of BYU and having Kenneth "let's impeach Bill Clinton" Starr as its president was too much for the Clintonistas in the West Coast. That's why they rushed to invite Colorado first that way they thought the other Big XII South schools had no choice but to leave Baylor behind. Utah was plan B and when ESPN saved the Big XII in the last minute, Utah hit the jackpot.

Thanks, ya I know Utah wasn't in the original plan and got lucky when things fell apart on 16. Would Baylor have gotten in to BE THEN. At that moment they were only big 12 to never have a winning record or make in the entire big 12 history. Plus then politics with ken Starr etc. would've been hard for some of those east coast schools to swallow (no Clinton/lewinski reference) Baylor was actually desperate enough to contact tcu about the MWC. I remember hearing that....

From The Dallas Morning News:

http://www.dallasnews.com/sports/college...t-7846.ece

(11-03-2014 11:38 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  In the summer of 2010, the PAC invited Texas, Texas a&m, Texas tech, Colorado, Oklahoma and Oklahoma St to the PAC. Nebraska immediately joined big 10. A&M got cold feet, LHN created issues etc and things ended up differently. If those 6 would've gone, what would've happened to Missouri, Iowa st, Kansas st, Kansas and Baylor? Was the big east attempting to invite the left over 5? Or just northern 4 as Baylor was at least talking to the MWC.--9 team league w/ Utah, TCU and BYU then. Anyone?

For speculation as to what might have happened, read the "What almost happened thread?"

(11-03-2014 11:38 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  In the summer of 2010, the PAC invited Texas, Texas a&m, Texas tech, Colorado, Oklahoma and Oklahoma St to the PAC. Nebraska immediately joined big 10. A&M got cold feet, LHN created issues etc and things ended up differently. If those 6 would've gone, what would've happened to Missouri, Iowa st, Kansas st, Kansas and Baylor? Was the big east attempting to invite the left over 5? Or just northern 4 as Baylor was at least talking to the MWC.--9 team league w/ Utah, TCU and BYU then. Anyone?

Under this scenerio, with A&M being team #16 in the PAC, then its not so obvious if The SEC still expands.

I have to agree the Big 12 leftovers would attempt to merge with the Big East. But it probably made more sense for the Big East football schools to join the Big 12. The BE football schools were looking to split from the Non-football schools but were looking for a way to keep their BCS status. Joining the Big 12 would accomplish that.

So now there is a tentative plan for the 8 BE FB schools + ND non-football to join the 5 Big 12 leftovers, plus lets throw in TCU. But what would ND accept?

THE ACC decides to make a counter move and invites Pitt and Syracuse + ND non-football. Those schools accept.

so now the Big 12 is down the 5 leftovers, 6 BE schools + TCU. The Big 12 decides to stop there.

next the Big Ten decides to expand and sticks to the east coast plan and takes Md and Rutgers. I would prefer Missouri but that was not the Big Ten's goal.

So now the ACC takes UConn instead of LV because there is nowhere for the FB schools to go.

So then the Big 12, desperate to keep its BCS status, goes national and decides to take UCF, Memphis, Utah, BYU , Boise, SDSU

End result
Big 12 east
CINCY, Louisville, WV, Memphis

Big 12 south
USF, UCF, Baylor, TCU

Big 12 north
ISU, Kansas, KSU, Mizzou,

Big 12 west
Utah, BYU, Boise, SDSU

In that scenario I don't see A&M following UT/UO to the PAC. I think they still take the opportunity to get away and go to the SEC. I think Utah still gets in to make it P16. This would pressure the other conferences to bolster their inventory.

With Kansas AND Missouri free, I think the B1G goes for the pair. That still leaves room for Rutgers and Maryland (the large eastern markets they want). That gives the B1G 16.

The addition of Baylor, Iowa St, Kansas St wont stabilize the BE. The C8 still split and the SEC and ACC are still looking.

The SEC NEEDS 1-3 teams. The only schools left that they want are in the ACC. It is going to be extremely difficult to get a NC or VA school unless the ACC collapses or evolves into something completely different.

The ACC NEEDS 3 to 5 schools (more if the SEC gets some schools). Syracuse had been on the ACC radar for a long time. The "football" schools" didn't want Uconn so Pitt moved up on the list. Maryland still needs cash so they still go to the B1G and Louisville goes to the ACC.

(11-04-2014 08:12 AM)goofus Wrote:  I have to agree the Big 12 leftovers would attempt to merge with the Big East. But it probably made more sense for the Big East football schools to join the Big 12. The BE football schools were looking to split from the Non-football schools but were looking for a way to keep their BCS status. Joining the Big 12 would accomplish that.

This part is not true. There was never an attempt to do that (both sides needed each other). They simply had an escape clause just in case. Plus at that point, there was no benefit to jettisoning those schools. The two primary assets of the Big East were large markets and great basketball. Those Catholic schools by and large provided the access to the large markets, and were a major part of the basketball. It would have just been one large ass league (12/20)

(11-04-2014 09:00 AM)Wolfman Wrote:  In that scenario I don't see A&M following UT/UO to the PAC. I think they still take the opportunity to get away and go to the SEC. I think Utah still gets in to make it P16. This would pressure the other conferences to bolster their inventory.

With Kansas AND Missouri free, I think the B1G goes for the pair. That still leaves room for Rutgers and Maryland (the large eastern markets they want). That gives the B1G 16.

The addition of Baylor, Iowa St, Kansas St wont stabilize the BE. The C8 still split and the SEC and ACC are still looking.

The SEC NEEDS 1-3 teams. The only schools left that they want are in the ACC. It is going to be extremely difficult to get a NC or VA school unless the ACC collapses or evolves into something completely different.

The ACC NEEDS 3 to 5 schools (more if the SEC gets some schools). Syracuse had been on the ACC radar for a long time. The "football" schools" didn't want Uconn so Pitt moved up on the list. Maryland still needs cash so they still go to the B1G and Louisville goes to the ACC.

After thinking it through, yes, I would have to believe A&M would bail on the PAC deal before they play a single game in the PAC. In which case the SEC would take A&M and Mizzou. But maybe with the Big 12 falling apart, maybe Mizzou and Kansas would desperately take a junior membership deal from the Big Ten first.

Then the PAC would backfill with Utah. But then the SEC still needs one more and to everybody's surprise, they take Oklahoma State, who is tired of being Oklahoma's lil brother. Then the PAC backfills with Hawaii.

I assume that the rule that would prevail is that the big dogs eat first. The big dog in this case is the B1G. Matching their allies from the PAC, they also go to 16 by adding Nebraska, Missouri and Kansas from what's left of the Big 12, then poaching Maryland from the ACC and Pitt from the Big East.

B1G West

Illinois
Northwestern
Minnesota
Wisconsin
Iowa
Nebraska
Missouri
Kansas

B1G East

Michigan
Michigan State
Ohio State
Penn State
Indiana
Purdue
Maryland
Pitt

The SEC isn't all that interested in what's left, so the ACC eats next. They take Syracuse, Rutgers, Louisville, West Virginia (holding their nose while they make this pick) and UConn. They are now also at 16, with an ACC division and a BE division:

ACC Division

FSU
Clemson
Ga Tech
UNC
NC State
Duke
Wake Forest
Virginia

Big East Division

Miami
Boston College
Va Tech
Syracuse
Rutgers
Louisville
West Virginia
UConn

The SEC stands pat at 12 teams, leaving a P4 of 60 teams plus Notre Dame.

Under the Big 12 flag (so the 3 leftovers can keep the exit fees from the nine defectors), nine teams are added:

Big 12 West

Baylor
Kansas State
Iowa State
TCU
SMU
Houston

Big 12 East

Cincinnati
USF
UCF
Memphis
Temple
East Carolina

This conference challenges the MWC (which still has BYU and Utah) for supremacy of the G5.

Notre Dame remains independent, but arranges scheduling deals with both the ACC (which agrees to invite ND for all other sports) and the B1G. They play 4 games against the B1G's East division, and two each against the ACC division and the Big East Division of the ACC. Add in their annual west coast home and home with USC and Stanford and their loyalty game with Navy, and ND has one slot left over for an SEC opponent every year.

How's that for fantasy?

I'm not so sure A&M wouldn't have gone PAC. It was well reported that it was a "done deal." Only after it fell apart and the LHN became such a financial "win" for Texas did A&M's folks really start pressing the SEC heavily.

I think the SEC would've turned around and expanded to keep pace by taking Missouri and WVU and potentially a couple of others.

It's been reported by several legitimate sources that Baylor, Iowa State, and the like were already in discussions with the Big East schools. I'm not sure whether the Big 12 schools would've joined the Big East or the BE football schools would've joined the Big 12 but clearly some sort of merger would've occurred there.

Baylor wasn't invited and never was going to be invited to the PAC. A&M was never going to accept an invitation to the PAC. Utah still would have been invited. A&M and Mizzou still would have gone to the SEC. Kansas, Kansas State and Iowa State were in contact with the Big East. CUSA wouldn't have lost teams to the BE/AAC. The WAC would probably still be football conference.

(11-04-2014 11:27 AM)ken d Wrote:  I assume that the rule that would prevail is that the big dogs eat first. The big dog in this case is the B1G. Matching their allies from the PAC, they also go to 16 by adding Nebraska, Missouri and Kansas from what's left of the Big 12, then poaching Maryland from the ACC and Pitt from the Big East.

B1G West

Illinois
Northwestern
Minnesota
Wisconsin
Iowa
Nebraska
Missouri
Kansas

B1G East

Michigan
Michigan State
Ohio State
Penn State
Indiana
Purdue
Maryland
Pitt

The SEC isn't all that interested in what's left, so the ACC eats next. They take Syracuse, Rutgers, Louisville, West Virginia (holding their nose while they make this pick) and UConn. They are now also at 16, with an ACC division and a BE division:

ACC Division

FSU
Clemson
Ga Tech
UNC
NC State
Duke
Wake Forest
Virginia

Big East Division

Miami
Boston College
Va Tech
Syracuse
Rutgers
Louisville
West Virginia
UConn

The SEC stands pat at 12 teams, leaving a P4 of 60 teams plus Notre Dame.

Under the Big 12 flag (so the 3 leftovers can keep the exit fees from the nine defectors), nine teams are added:

Big 12 West

Baylor
Kansas State
Iowa State
TCU
SMU
Houston

Big 12 East

Cincinnati
USF
UCF
Memphis
Temple
East Carolina

This conference challenges the MWC (which still has BYU and Utah) for supremacy of the G5.

Notre Dame remains independent, but arranges scheduling deals with both the ACC (which agrees to invite ND for all other sports) and the B1G. They play 4 games against the B1G's East division, and two each against the ACC division and the Big East Division of the ACC. Add in their annual west coast home and home with USC and Stanford and their loyalty game with Navy, and ND has one slot left over for an SEC opponent every year.

How's that for fantasy?

B1G would never take Pitt. It does nothing for them since they already have Penn State. They would take Rutgers, just like they did in real life. Also, I would think the Big 12 would consider Boise State, BYU, San Diego State, and Utah (assuming they didn't end up in the Pac 16) in addition to Houston and SMU.

I can only speak to the Texas A&M piece as I followed Texags.com religiously during that time period (my wife is an Aggie alum). Although most faculty cherished the PAC12, the alumni base and majority of boosters were as pro-SEC as they were prior to the creation of the Big-12. The fact that UT entered negotiations on a PAC-16 without consulting with A&M was the dealkiller for them.

I still think Utah would have gotten in, as would have UT, Texas Tech, and the Oklahoma's to make it 16. The Longhorn network was an ESPN creation to avoid being locked out of 2 time zones worth of football inventory - and it worked.

(11-04-2014 05:42 PM)robertfoshizzle Wrote:  

(11-04-2014 11:27 AM)ken d Wrote:  I assume that the rule that would prevail is that the big dogs eat first. The big dog in this case is the B1G. Matching their allies from the PAC, they also go to 16 by adding Nebraska, Missouri and Kansas from what's left of the Big 12, then poaching Maryland from the ACC and Pitt from the Big East.

B1G West

Illinois
Northwestern
Minnesota
Wisconsin
Iowa
Nebraska
Missouri
Kansas

B1G East

Michigan
Michigan State
Ohio State
Penn State
Indiana
Purdue
Maryland
Pitt

The SEC isn't all that interested in what's left, so the ACC eats next. They take Syracuse, Rutgers, Louisville, West Virginia (holding their nose while they make this pick) and UConn. They are now also at 16, with an ACC division and a BE division:

ACC Division

FSU
Clemson
Ga Tech
UNC
NC State
Duke
Wake Forest
Virginia

Big East Division

Miami
Boston College
Va Tech
Syracuse
Rutgers
Louisville
West Virginia
UConn

The SEC stands pat at 12 teams, leaving a P4 of 60 teams plus Notre Dame.

Under the Big 12 flag (so the 3 leftovers can keep the exit fees from the nine defectors), nine teams are added:

Big 12 West

Baylor
Kansas State
Iowa State
TCU
SMU
Houston

Big 12 East

Cincinnati
USF
UCF
Memphis
Temple
East Carolina

This conference challenges the MWC (which still has BYU and Utah) for supremacy of the G5.

Notre Dame remains independent, but arranges scheduling deals with both the ACC (which agrees to invite ND for all other sports) and the B1G. They play 4 games against the B1G's East division, and two each against the ACC division and the Big East Division of the ACC. Add in their annual west coast home and home with USC and Stanford and their loyalty game with Navy, and ND has one slot left over for an SEC opponent every year.

How's that for fantasy?

B1G would never take Pitt. It does nothing for them since they already have Penn State. They would take Rutgers, just like they did in real life. Also, I would think the Big 12 would consider Boise State, BYU, San Diego State, and Utah (assuming they didn't end up in the Pac 16) in addition to Houston and SMU.

I agree that the B1G would have gone tit for tat with a 16-member PAC, nabbing UNL, KU, Rutgers, and UMD. I don't know if that other spot would go to Pitt or Missouri. They both have schools sort of blocking them. I kind of think, PSU tantrums aside, Pitt had more support.

(11-04-2014 05:54 PM)LSUtah Wrote:  I can only speak to the Texas A&M piece as I followed Texags.com religiously during that time period (my wife is an Aggie alum). Although most faculty cherished the PAC12, the alumni base and majority of boosters were as pro-SEC as they were prior to the creation of the Big-12. The fact that UT entered negotiations on a PAC-16 without consulting with A&M was the dealkiller for them.

I still think Utah would have gotten in, as would have UT, Texas Tech, and the Oklahoma's to make it 16. The Longhorn network was an ESPN creation to avoid being locked out of 2 time zones worth of football inventory - and it worked.

You are completely correct.

The PAC is a fine academic and athletic league full of excellence in both departments but it just would have been the wrong fit for us. A&M is a big southern flagship/land grant school that belongs with other big southern flagship/land grant schools.

I think that if LHN had not happened then UT/TT/OU/OSU/CU/UU would have joined the PAC.

I think there is a strong chance that Kansas would get picked up by the B1G and possibly Missouri too if they struck before the SEC tabbed them as A&M's partner (in which case I think they would have brought in WVU as our eastern counterpart)

Given only 3 teams would remain at that point (BU/KSU/ISU) and the Big 12 officially dissolved (which means all it's contracts are null and void too) I imagine they would have little choice but to merge with either the Big East or the MWC depending on who could get them the best deals.