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uofmcamaro Offline
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Post: #41
RE: Dave Ramsey
(11-04-2014 05:12 PM)Tiger46 Wrote:  
(11-04-2014 10:30 AM)Tiger1983 Wrote:  
(11-04-2014 08:56 AM)snowtiger Wrote:  Remember 5th grade...the income/outgo column budget teacher had us make. You couldn't pretend spend more than you pretend made or you failed the homework assignment. Pretty simple.

Some folks get pulled in by the CC transfer offers promising 0% till they can't keep up. Other folks work that. *shrug*

My kid's school required a Ramsey course and I thought it was time well spent.

Now that is a good idea, to teach a course like that in school.

Disagree. There is good to Ramsey's teachings but his teaching on absolutes if awful. People get so caught up in drinking his coolaid that they bypass money saving opportunities. I can't tell you how many times I will call a customer and let them know that I could refinance all of their debt, cut 3 years off their current loans, and save them thousands over the time of the loan only to be told something about how they are taking a Dave class and he says not to take out new loans.....there is a difference in being responsible and being timidly stupid.
11-05-2014 06:31 PM
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BIGDTiger Offline
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Post: #42
RE: Dave Ramsey
Dave Ramsey is great for the person who just wants to work the mom-fri job & be comfortable. But if I took his advice on slow cooking a small business 15 years ago, Id still be saving my money & 10 years away. Instead, I got some loans, made it work, sold a business by the time I was 26 & am sitting comfortable.
11-05-2014 07:37 PM
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Tiger1983 Offline
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Post: #43
RE: Dave Ramsey
(11-05-2014 06:31 PM)uofmcamaro Wrote:  
(11-04-2014 05:12 PM)Tiger46 Wrote:  
(11-04-2014 10:30 AM)Tiger1983 Wrote:  
(11-04-2014 08:56 AM)snowtiger Wrote:  Remember 5th grade...the income/outgo column budget teacher had us make. You couldn't pretend spend more than you pretend made or you failed the homework assignment. Pretty simple.

Some folks get pulled in by the CC transfer offers promising 0% till they can't keep up. Other folks work that. *shrug*

My kid's school required a Ramsey course and I thought it was time well spent.

Now that is a good idea, to teach a course like that in school.

Disagree. There is good to Ramsey's teachings but his teaching on absolutes if awful. People get so caught up in drinking his coolaid that they bypass money saving opportunities. I can't tell you how many times I will call a customer and let them know that I could refinance all of their debt, cut 3 years off their current loans, and save them thousands over the time of the loan only to be told something about how they are taking a Dave class and he says not to take out new loans.....there is a difference in being responsible and being timidly stupid.

I read the material and the concepts were sound for the average high schooler. It is much better than nothing.
11-05-2014 07:45 PM
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uofmcamaro Offline
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Post: #44
Dave Ramsey
(11-05-2014 07:45 PM)Tiger1983 Wrote:  
(11-05-2014 06:31 PM)uofmcamaro Wrote:  
(11-04-2014 05:12 PM)Tiger46 Wrote:  
(11-04-2014 10:30 AM)Tiger1983 Wrote:  
(11-04-2014 08:56 AM)snowtiger Wrote:  Remember 5th grade...the income/outgo column budget teacher had us make. You couldn't pretend spend more than you pretend made or you failed the homework assignment. Pretty simple.

Some folks get pulled in by the CC transfer offers promising 0% till they can't keep up. Other folks work that. *shrug*

My kid's school required a Ramsey course and I thought it was time well spent.

Now that is a good idea, to teach a course like that in school.

Disagree. There is good to Ramsey's teachings but his teaching on absolutes if awful. People get so caught up in drinking his coolaid that they bypass money saving opportunities. I can't tell you how many times I will call a customer and let them know that I could refinance all of their debt, cut 3 years off their current loans, and save them thousands over the time of the loan only to be told something about how they are taking a Dave class and he says not to take out new loans.....there is a difference in being responsible and being timidly stupid.

I read the material and the concepts were sound for the average high schooler. It is much better than nothing.

I thought about it after I wrote and I think you may be right. Kids don't have real world experience and won't buy in totally but will likely learn basics.


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11-05-2014 07:47 PM
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Tiger1983 Offline
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Post: #45
RE: Dave Ramsey
(11-05-2014 07:47 PM)uofmcamaro Wrote:  
(11-05-2014 07:45 PM)Tiger1983 Wrote:  
(11-05-2014 06:31 PM)uofmcamaro Wrote:  
(11-04-2014 05:12 PM)Tiger46 Wrote:  
(11-04-2014 10:30 AM)Tiger1983 Wrote:  My kid's school required a Ramsey course and I thought it was time well spent.

Now that is a good idea, to teach a course like that in school.

Disagree. There is good to Ramsey's teachings but his teaching on absolutes if awful. People get so caught up in drinking his coolaid that they bypass money saving opportunities. I can't tell you how many times I will call a customer and let them know that I could refinance all of their debt, cut 3 years off their current loans, and save them thousands over the time of the loan only to be told something about how they are taking a Dave class and he says not to take out new loans.....there is a difference in being responsible and being timidly stupid.

I read the material and the concepts were sound for the average high schooler. It is much better than nothing.

I thought about it after I wrote and I think you may be right. Kids don't have real world experience and won't buy in totally but will likely learn basics.


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As shown in my previous posts, I agree with you about Ramey's inflexibility. It drives me nuts.
11-05-2014 07:51 PM
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Tiger1983 Offline
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Post: #46
RE: Dave Ramsey
(11-05-2014 07:37 PM)BIGDTiger Wrote:  Dave Ramsey is great for the person who just wants to work the mom-fri job & be comfortable. But if I took his advice on slow cooking a small business 15 years ago, Id still be saving my money & 10 years away. Instead, I got some loans, made it work, sold a business by the time I was 26 & am sitting comfortable.

My Father-in-Law, in his late 50's, used considerable leverage to take part ownership of a spin off of a major corporation. Given his age, I advised against it because of the risk. However, he did not consider it risky because he knew of operational efficiencies and business growth that were symied by the corporation. He was right and has ROI was quite high upon sale of the entity.
11-05-2014 08:01 PM
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uofmcamaro Offline
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Post: #47
Dave Ramsey
(11-03-2014 04:41 PM)Tiger1983 Wrote:  Ramsey's methods are generally sound for the general public IMO, but his refusal to acknowledge the positives of credit card use irks me. Yes, credit card use - like fire or other useful but potentially dangerous thing - should be carefully considered. However, credit cards are a wonderful way to obtain free perks and interest free float. I have paid for vacations and better managed cash flow due to credit cards. The key is to always pay the balance off monthly and treat it like cash.

This....so much this. I use credit cards as tools....and he specifically says that is a lie. If used responsibly then they are fine. On top of that, his hard core followers want no debt but will apply for a loan yrs later and be denied due to lack of credit. Seen it many times


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11-05-2014 10:19 PM
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tigernole79 Offline
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Post: #48
RE: Dave Ramsey
But for every person that can use credit cards properly there are 10 that don't. Once again, you spend on average 8% more when you use a card than when you use cash.
His principles are for the majority. If presented an individual case in person or one-on-one, I would think he would probably be more flexible, but he won't in public because the majority of people will take that yard and run 20.
His systems do work. Yes, there are much better and quicker and every other example you can list, but his systems DO work. You can't argue that if you follow his guide, you don't make that finish line. Yes, having said that... I bet you can find the small% that don't make it. But I bet it will be a whole lot easier to find the 90%+ that do!!!
11-05-2014 10:28 PM
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uofmcamaro Offline
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Post: #49
RE: Dave Ramsey
(11-05-2014 10:28 PM)tigernole79 Wrote:  But for every person that can use credit cards properly there are 10 that don't. Once again, you spend on average 8% more when you use a card than when you use cash.
His principles are for the majority. If presented an individual case in person or one-on-one, I would think he would probably be more flexible, but he won't in public because the majority of people will take that yard and run 20.
His systems do work. Yes, there are much better and quicker and every other example you can list, but his systems DO work. You can't argue that if you follow his guide, you don't make that finish line. Yes, having said that... I bet you can find the small% that don't make it. But I bet it will be a whole lot easier to find the 90%+ that do!!!

I don't think anyone will argue that credit cards can get you in trouble. In fact, I don't think anyone would argue that credit card has lots of people in trouble.

I still would say my biggest frustration with Dave is how people can get so brainwashed in to everything he says. My situation from above is so true. Especially in the bible belt. I work in finance and I am not the "sales" type guy that will sell you a product just to sell it. If I see you are irresponsible with it then I won't even ask or offer. However, I often times will see situations where I can honestly help someone dig out of debt. I've even done it several times (highly rewarding). However, majority of Dave disciples will simply shut you out when you mention the 4 letter l word....loan. They have been conditioned with blinders it seems. THAT is my biggest issue. Or furthermore, the ones that will get debt free, and good for them, but then want to purchase a car or home 10 years down the line. They come in and apply and I say "well, you've got great credit scores, but you haven't used your credit at all in 10 years. So our underwriters will not write that loan...it is high risk". They seem dumbfounded.

I'm also not a big believer in the "pay with cash" system. I mean that in a sense of I'd rather pay with debit card (not even credit card)...and I highly encourage that. I've worked far too many fraud cases on all fronts to where I simply feel the best method of payment is a card (debit if you want) of some sort. Too many times I have seen people walk out our doors with cash only to be robbed a few hours later. It is devastating. If someone takes your cash...its gone. If someone takes your checks, we can recover the funds but man is it a big hassle for the consumer getting all their deposits and auto debits rearranged. Someone steals your debit card? Lets close and get a new one...that simple.



Dave has helped a ton of people, no doubt. His advice is fairly simplistic, yes. I've met him multiple times and he seems a nice enough guy (can't gauge that on 10 minute conversations though). In all I would have to say he is helping folks more than hurting them...but I wish his hardcore followers would be just a bit more open minded to ideas than saying to me what I've heard 1000 times in, "well, Dave says ________".
11-05-2014 10:51 PM
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tiger2000 Offline
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Post: #50
RE: Dave Ramsey
(11-05-2014 10:51 PM)uofmcamaro Wrote:  
(11-05-2014 10:28 PM)tigernole79 Wrote:  But for every person that can use credit cards properly there are 10 that don't. Once again, you spend on average 8% more when you use a card than when you use cash.
His principles are for the majority. If presented an individual case in person or one-on-one, I would think he would probably be more flexible, but he won't in public because the majority of people will take that yard and run 20.
His systems do work. Yes, there are much better and quicker and every other example you can list, but his systems DO work. You can't argue that if you follow his guide, you don't make that finish line. Yes, having said that... I bet you can find the small% that don't make it. But I bet it will be a whole lot easier to find the 90%+ that do!!!

I don't think anyone will argue that credit cards can get you in trouble. In fact, I don't think anyone would argue that credit card has lots of people in trouble.

I still would say my biggest frustration with Dave is how people can get so brainwashed in to everything he says. My situation from above is so true. Especially in the bible belt. I work in finance and I am not the "sales" type guy that will sell you a product just to sell it. If I see you are irresponsible with it then I won't even ask or offer. However, I often times will see situations where I can honestly help someone dig out of debt. I've even done it several times (highly rewarding). However, majority of Dave disciples will simply shut you out when you mention the 4 letter l word....loan. They have been conditioned with blinders it seems. THAT is my biggest issue. Or furthermore, the ones that will get debt free, and good for them, but then want to purchase a car or home 10 years down the line. They come in and apply and I say "well, you've got great credit scores, but you haven't used your credit at all in 10 years. So our underwriters will not write that loan...it is high risk". They seem dumbfounded.

I'm also not a big believer in the "pay with cash" system. I mean that in a sense of I'd rather pay with debit card (not even credit card)...and I highly encourage that. I've worked far too many fraud cases on all fronts to where I simply feel the best method of payment is a card (debit if you want) of some sort. Too many times I have seen people walk out our doors with cash only to be robbed a few hours later. It is devastating. If someone takes your cash...its gone. If someone takes your checks, we can recover the funds but man is it a big hassle for the consumer getting all their deposits and auto debits rearranged. Someone steals your debit card? Lets close and get a new one...that simple.



Dave has helped a ton of people, no doubt. His advice is fairly simplistic, yes. I've met him multiple times and he seems a nice enough guy (can't gauge that on 10 minute conversations though). In all I would have to say he is helping folks more than hurting them...but I wish his hardcore followers would be just a bit more open minded to ideas than saying to me what I've heard 1000 times in, "well, Dave says ________".

did you kiss his ring?
11-06-2014 12:34 PM
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Tiger46 Offline
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Post: #51
RE: Dave Ramsey
(11-05-2014 06:31 PM)uofmcamaro Wrote:  
(11-04-2014 05:12 PM)Tiger46 Wrote:  
(11-04-2014 10:30 AM)Tiger1983 Wrote:  
(11-04-2014 08:56 AM)snowtiger Wrote:  Remember 5th grade...the income/outgo column budget teacher had us make. You couldn't pretend spend more than you pretend made or you failed the homework assignment. Pretty simple.

Some folks get pulled in by the CC transfer offers promising 0% till they can't keep up. Other folks work that. *shrug*

My kid's school required a Ramsey course and I thought it was time well spent.

Now that is a good idea, to teach a course like that in school.

Disagree. There is good to Ramsey's teachings but his teaching on absolutes if awful. People get so caught up in drinking his coolaid that they bypass money saving opportunities. I can't tell you how many times I will call a customer and let them know that I could refinance all of their debt, cut 3 years off their current loans, and save them thousands over the time of the loan only to be told something about how they are taking a Dave class and he says not to take out new loans.....there is a difference in being responsible and being timidly stupid.

I said a course like that. I agree with you about Ramsey's style, but my thought was in general that there should be some personal finance courses that are required in high school.

You provide a good service, it's a shame everyone can't understand it.
11-06-2014 01:23 PM
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uofmcamaro Offline
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Post: #52
Dave Ramsey
(11-06-2014 01:23 PM)Tiger46 Wrote:  
(11-05-2014 06:31 PM)uofmcamaro Wrote:  
(11-04-2014 05:12 PM)Tiger46 Wrote:  
(11-04-2014 10:30 AM)Tiger1983 Wrote:  
(11-04-2014 08:56 AM)snowtiger Wrote:  Remember 5th grade...the income/outgo column budget teacher had us make. You couldn't pretend spend more than you pretend made or you failed the homework assignment. Pretty simple.

Some folks get pulled in by the CC transfer offers promising 0% till they can't keep up. Other folks work that. *shrug*

My kid's school required a Ramsey course and I thought it was time well spent.

Now that is a good idea, to teach a course like that in school.

Disagree. There is good to Ramsey's teachings but his teaching on absolutes if awful. People get so caught up in drinking his coolaid that they bypass money saving opportunities. I can't tell you how many times I will call a customer and let them know that I could refinance all of their debt, cut 3 years off their current loans, and save them thousands over the time of the loan only to be told something about how they are taking a Dave class and he says not to take out new loans.....there is a difference in being responsible and being timidly stupid.

I said a course like that. I agree with you about Ramsey's style, but my thought was in general that there should be some personal finance courses that are required in high school.

You provide a good service, it's a shame everyone can't understand it.

I wish simple personal accounting was required in high school as well as typing.


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11-06-2014 01:38 PM
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Tiger46 Offline
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Post: #53
RE: Dave Ramsey
(11-06-2014 01:38 PM)uofmcamaro Wrote:  
(11-06-2014 01:23 PM)Tiger46 Wrote:  
(11-05-2014 06:31 PM)uofmcamaro Wrote:  
(11-04-2014 05:12 PM)Tiger46 Wrote:  
(11-04-2014 10:30 AM)Tiger1983 Wrote:  My kid's school required a Ramsey course and I thought it was time well spent.

Now that is a good idea, to teach a course like that in school.

Disagree. There is good to Ramsey's teachings but his teaching on absolutes if awful. People get so caught up in drinking his coolaid that they bypass money saving opportunities. I can't tell you how many times I will call a customer and let them know that I could refinance all of their debt, cut 3 years off their current loans, and save them thousands over the time of the loan only to be told something about how they are taking a Dave class and he says not to take out new loans.....there is a difference in being responsible and being timidly stupid.

I said a course like that. I agree with you about Ramsey's style, but my thought was in general that there should be some personal finance courses that are required in high school.

You provide a good service, it's a shame everyone can't understand it.

I wish simple personal accounting was required in high school as well as typing.


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Do they still teach typing, or is it keyboarding now?
11-06-2014 03:30 PM
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tigergreen Offline
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Post: #54
RE: Dave Ramsey
(11-06-2014 03:30 PM)Tiger46 Wrote:  
(11-06-2014 01:38 PM)uofmcamaro Wrote:  
(11-06-2014 01:23 PM)Tiger46 Wrote:  
(11-05-2014 06:31 PM)uofmcamaro Wrote:  
(11-04-2014 05:12 PM)Tiger46 Wrote:  Now that is a good idea, to teach a course like that in school.

Disagree. There is good to Ramsey's teachings but his teaching on absolutes if awful. People get so caught up in drinking his coolaid that they bypass money saving opportunities. I can't tell you how many times I will call a customer and let them know that I could refinance all of their debt, cut 3 years off their current loans, and save them thousands over the time of the loan only to be told something about how they are taking a Dave class and he says not to take out new loans.....there is a difference in being responsible and being timidly stupid.

I said a course like that. I agree with you about Ramsey's style, but my thought was in general that there should be some personal finance courses that are required in high school.

You provide a good service, it's a shame everyone can't understand it.

I wish simple personal accounting was required in high school as well as typing.


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Do they still teach typing, or is it keyboarding now?

keyboarding, I think.
11-06-2014 04:04 PM
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tiger2000 Offline
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Post: #55
RE: Dave Ramsey
(11-06-2014 04:04 PM)tigergreen Wrote:  
(11-06-2014 03:30 PM)Tiger46 Wrote:  
(11-06-2014 01:38 PM)uofmcamaro Wrote:  
(11-06-2014 01:23 PM)Tiger46 Wrote:  
(11-05-2014 06:31 PM)uofmcamaro Wrote:  Disagree. There is good to Ramsey's teachings but his teaching on absolutes if awful. People get so caught up in drinking his coolaid that they bypass money saving opportunities. I can't tell you how many times I will call a customer and let them know that I could refinance all of their debt, cut 3 years off their current loans, and save them thousands over the time of the loan only to be told something about how they are taking a Dave class and he says not to take out new loans.....there is a difference in being responsible and being timidly stupid.

I said a course like that. I agree with you about Ramsey's style, but my thought was in general that there should be some personal finance courses that are required in high school.

You provide a good service, it's a shame everyone can't understand it.

I wish simple personal accounting was required in high school as well as typing.


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Do they still teach typing, or is it keyboarding now?

keyboarding, I think.

Sounds cooler. Hey man did you do your keyboarding homework?

Janie, did you keyboard that thank you letter to the building commission?
11-06-2014 04:18 PM
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tigernole79 Offline
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Post: #56
RE: Dave Ramsey
Uofmcamaro, let me ask you a question. A couple comes into your financial office. Makes around $90,000 a year. Has no debt. Paid their 15 year mortgage off in 9 years. Has $10,000 in savings and more than that in a money market account.... They don't have a credit card, but want a $400,000 home loan. You are really going to turn them down because they haven't charged anything on credit in 7 years?!

Your point about cash is valid, but not necessarily true. In 8 years of using cash, I never once had a problem. In the two years before we switched to cash, we had to replace three cards for scammin or attempted stolen identity. I don't recall Target, Paypal or any other place having to offer free identity protection to cash users for losing their personal information to hackers.... which cyber crime and identity theft is one of the fastest growing crimes in the world.
11-06-2014 09:04 PM
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uofmcamaro Offline
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Post: #57
Dave Ramsey
(11-06-2014 09:04 PM)tigernole79 Wrote:  Uofmcamaro, let me ask you a question. A couple comes into your financial office. Makes around $90,000 a year. Has no debt. Paid their 15 year mortgage off in 9 years. Has $10,000 in savings and more than that in a money market account.... They don't have a credit card, but want a $400,000 home loan. You are really going to turn them down because they haven't charged anything on credit in 7 years?!

Your point about cash is valid, but not necessarily true. In 8 years of using cash, I never once had a problem. In the two years before we switched to cash, we had to replace three cards for scammin or attempted stolen identity. I don't recall Target, Paypal or any other place having to offer free identity protection to cash users for losing their personal information to hackers.... which cyber crime and identity theft is one of the fastest growing crimes in the world.

The well off couple, have they had any debt in the past 10-15 years? Personal loan, auto, etc? If no, there is a good chance they get denied, yes. Underwriters look at their lack of credit use in many years the same as they would a 20 year old with no credit. I'm thankful I can't write my own loans cause I'd see it different, but the way I see it simply isn't the way it always works. They may get a loan some places but not at a lot of places.

The second point is completely true and I can't argue it. I can just say that I have seen cash, card, and checks stolen and the least devastating and least hassle is if a card is stolen.

True story, I had a little old lady walk in a branch I worked a few years ago and pull $1,100.00 out of the bank. She went right across the street and was robbed at gunpoint. That $1,100.00 was all the money she had (her monthly SSI). Now, while that doesn't happen every day to everyone it did make me reevaluate my thinking on my method of spending. Just my $0.02


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11-06-2014 09:37 PM
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Tiger46 Offline
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Post: #58
RE: Dave Ramsey
(11-06-2014 09:37 PM)uofmcamaro Wrote:  
(11-06-2014 09:04 PM)tigernole79 Wrote:  Uofmcamaro, let me ask you a question. A couple comes into your financial office. Makes around $90,000 a year. Has no debt. Paid their 15 year mortgage off in 9 years. Has $10,000 in savings and more than that in a money market account.... They don't have a credit card, but want a $400,000 home loan. You are really going to turn them down because they haven't charged anything on credit in 7 years?!

Your point about cash is valid, but not necessarily true. In 8 years of using cash, I never once had a problem. In the two years before we switched to cash, we had to replace three cards for scammin or attempted stolen identity. I don't recall Target, Paypal or any other place having to offer free identity protection to cash users for losing their personal information to hackers.... which cyber crime and identity theft is one of the fastest growing crimes in the world.

The well off couple, have they had any debt in the past 10-15 years? Personal loan, auto, etc? If no, there is a good chance they get denied, yes. Underwriters look at their lack of credit use in many years the same as they would a 20 year old with no credit. I'm thankful I can't write my own loans cause I'd see it different, but the way I see it simply isn't the way it always works. They may get a loan some places but not at a lot of places.

The second point is completely true and I can't argue it. I can just say that I have seen cash, card, and checks stolen and the least devastating and least hassle is if a card is stolen.

True story, I had a little old lady walk in a branch I worked a few years ago and pull $1,100.00 out of the bank. She went right across the street and was robbed at gunpoint. That $1,100.00 was all the money she had (her monthly SSI). Now, while that doesn't happen every day to everyone it did make me reevaluate my thinking on my method of spending. Just my $0.02


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We paid off about 30,000 in personal debt about five years ago, tore up all of the credit cards and the only debt we have now is our house. Positive cash flow every month. We have paid cash for home improvements, vacations, furniture and major auto repairs.

We have been shopping for a new vehicle, to replace one of our vehicles that are each 12 years old, and when they ran credit they did mention that we didn't have a lot of credit, everything they found was 5-10 years old.

I always thought the goal was to be debt free. I am going to get a credit card to have for emergencies or for that dream vacation that we are thinking about. Not so much for the trip itself but just in case anything happens on the trip.
11-07-2014 09:55 AM
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U of M/ND fan Offline
Heisman
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Post: #59
RE: Dave Ramsey
Have listened to Dave's show on multiple occasions and don't find anything much wrong with his advice.

As far as personal money mgmt I have friends that have gotten into CC debt of $100,000 or MORE. Then they have a second mortgage on their home putting their home upside down when the market tanked. Its unbelievable but its real.
These folks pay the min on everything with 14 to 20% interest on that money. And for the most part they are OK with that.
They are the Kick the Can Down the Road folks.
The problem is their kids see this and think its normal for the most part.

Per several accounts Americans owe something like $850,000,000,000 billion in CC debt.
Student loans total around $1.2 trillion.

So some sort of personal money mgmt high school class would great (I think) as most don't have a clue until its to late.
Keeping up with the Jones will get you every time.
11-07-2014 10:28 AM
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TigerTitan Offline
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Location: Twang Town (Nashville)

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Post: #60
RE: Dave Ramsey
I listened to Dave Ramsey way back in the late 1980's when he started with his local talk show here in Nashville with a high school friend of mine that was milllion-dollar earner with Primerica (formerly known as A.L. Williams) a multi-level marketing company that had your next door neighbor or plumber selling you term insurance and replacing universal life or whole life. The idea was to "Buy term and invest the difference" in their stupid and low-performing mutual funds, which they had no idea what they were talking about.

The show was Roy Matlock's platform to push his pyramid selling business and pay Dave multiple thousands of dollars as well, without selling a single policy or fund! Genius.

He NEVER has had any credibility in my book ever since.

Most people I know that have known Dave and his wife cannot stand them anymore (Franklin and Brentwood, TN area). I know no facts about them today. Just reporting what I've heard. Haven't listened to the show the past two decades.
11-07-2014 10:41 AM
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