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if the republicans lose NC, we have the gutless libertarians to thank
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mlb Offline
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Post: #61
RE: if the republicans lose NC, we have the gutless libertarians to thank
(11-03-2014 01:32 PM)JMUDunk Wrote:  Not "acting" like anything. Of course there's massive waste in the defense budget. I've just whacked 'em 25%, they can decide where to spend the remaining 75%, and it's gonna mean real cuts. Same with "welfare" cuts. Dept of Energy and education are rather miniscule, but I whacked them 25% as well.

So we're 35-40% there, what's next?

Actually, I meant that I'd cut Energy and Education completely. Granted, that is still only several hundred million $$.

Intelligence - how many difference intelligence agencies does the US have? Publically it is 1 number, secretly there are more. I'd start combining them as there is a lot of duplicate research going on. I think the "public" budget (not including the NSA) is around $45 to $50B. It is probably at least double that after the secret budgets and the NSA get involved. You could probably halve that due to all the duplicate research.

As I said, I'm not in the gov't and don't get to look at the all the programs in each department, nor how many are duplicates of others. You could probably line item whack huge chunks of budget just by cutting duplicate programs in each department. I'm quite positive I could balance the budget if I sat down and didn't have to worry about the politics of cutting ineffective programs and by combining others.
11-03-2014 01:48 PM
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JMUDunk Offline
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Post: #62
RE: if the republicans lose NC, we have the gutless libertarians to thank
(11-03-2014 01:48 PM)mlb Wrote:  
(11-03-2014 01:32 PM)JMUDunk Wrote:  Not "acting" like anything. Of course there's massive waste in the defense budget. I've just whacked 'em 25%, they can decide where to spend the remaining 75%, and it's gonna mean real cuts. Same with "welfare" cuts. Dept of Energy and education are rather miniscule, but I whacked them 25% as well.

So we're 35-40% there, what's next?

Actually, I meant that I'd cut Energy and Education completely. Granted, that is still only several hundred million $$.

Intelligence - how many difference intelligence agencies does the US have? Publically it is 1 number, secretly there are more. I'd start combining them as there is a lot of duplicate research going on. I think the "public" budget (not including the NSA) is around $45 to $50B. It is probably at least double that after the secret budgets and the NSA get involved. You could probably halve that due to all the duplicate research.

As I said, I'm not in the gov't and don't get to look at the all the programs in each department, nor how many are duplicates of others. You could probably line item whack huge chunks of budget just by cutting duplicate programs in each department. I'm quite positive I could balance the budget if I sat down and didn't have to worry about the politics of cutting ineffective programs and by combining others.


Well, perhaps, but we both know that's not reality and won't be any time soon.

I'll quit this line, but I think the point has been made- as currently structured there is, quite literally, NO way we can cut our way to a balanced budget. No way. So why would we cheer lead for some candidate to lie to us about it.

The only way we'll ever balance the budget year over year and get to actually reducing the budget DEBT, the biggee, is to grow our way out of it. Growth! Aha!= increased tax receipts. Correct?

Now, ask yourself this, fellow libertarian leaning conservatives- accepting the FACT of life, currently, that's it's gonna be either an R or a D occupying that senate seat over there, and that R or D is going to caucus and vote heavily with their respective party, who's more likely to get behind the causes of increased economic growth? Removing obstacles? Cutting red tape, regulations, and strangling restrictions to a whole host of economic opportunities out there?

Who's more likely to quit this silliness of throwing good money after bad on pie in the sky boondoggles, quit trying to pick winners and losers from DeeCee, and stop these various departments sprinkling our federal dollars out to friends, families and fans? Who's more likely to either rip the dreaded ACA out by it's roots and start over? Or short of that, address some of the business crippling requirements and stupid one size fits all, men and women alike, requirements therein?

One could go on and on, but I hope you get the point. If (and when) we can get the schit around here moving again, a lot of the hand wringing and very real fears, anxieties, a lot of people are feeling will ease. We can get back on a sound financial footing, get people back to work and OFF the federal dole, allowing these programs to shrink naturally.
That's the way home, and unfortunately that's the only way I can see.
(This post was last modified: 11-03-2014 02:07 PM by JMUDunk.)
11-03-2014 02:05 PM
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georgia_tech_swagger Offline
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Post: #63
RE: if the republicans lose NC, we have the gutless libertarians to thank
(11-03-2014 01:31 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  I say we keep the military spending, but make Europe and Asia pay or their share.


Most won't do it because most can't afford it. Our biggest deployments are way beyond the fiscal reach of those who benefit from it. In particular Germany, Japan, Korea, and the UK. The UK can barely keep up with their welfare state thanks to EU open borders. Germany is financing the bankrupt southern EU states. Japan is turning the lost decade into 2. Korea just isn't industrialized enough.
11-03-2014 02:11 PM
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HeartOfDixie Offline
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Post: #64
RE: if the republicans lose NC, we have the gutless libertarians to thank
Having seen how nasty this campaign has been I am at the point where I no longer care. No matter who wins we all lose.
11-03-2014 02:18 PM
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Post: #65
RE: if the republicans lose NC, we have the gutless libertarians to thank
(11-03-2014 02:18 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  Having seen how nasty this campaign has been I am at the point where I no longer care. No matter who wins we all lose.

Agree. A news station here requested questions to ask Tillis & Hagan, so I asked "How embarrassed are you that over $100 million will be spent on a race where nobody in this state wins?"

Much to my surprise, my question was not addressed.
11-03-2014 02:26 PM
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mlb Offline
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Post: #66
RE: if the republicans lose NC, we have the gutless libertarians to thank
(11-03-2014 02:05 PM)JMUDunk Wrote:  I'll quit this line, but I think the point has been made- as currently structured there is, quite literally, NO way we can cut our way to a balanced budget. No way. So why would we cheer lead for some candidate to lie to us about it.

Not with a Republican or Democrat heading the gov't, agreed.

Quote:The only way we'll ever balance the budget year over year and get to actually reducing the budget DEBT, the biggee, is to grow our way out of it. Growth! Aha!= increased tax receipts. Correct?

Well, we are at an all time high for tax receipts under Obama, correct? That sounds like an argument FOR him to me.

Quote:Now, ask yourself this, fellow libertarian leaning conservatives- accepting the FACT of life, currently, that's it's gonna be either an R or a D occupying that senate seat over there, and that R or D is going to caucus and vote heavily with their respective party, who's more likely to get behind the causes of increased economic growth? Removing obstacles? Cutting red tape, regulations, and strangling restrictions to a whole host of economic opportunities out there?

Both sides are well known for creating red tape in areas and removing in others. The problem is that neither of them do it across the board, they do it for whatever political group they are pandering to at that moment.

Quote:Who's more likely to quit this silliness of throwing good money after bad on pie in the sky boondoggles, quit trying to pick winners and losers from DeeCee, and stop these various departments sprinkling our federal dollars out to friends, families and fans? Who's more likely to either rip the dreaded ACA out by it's roots and start over? Or short of that, address some of the business crippling requirements and stupid one size fits all, men and women alike, requirements therein?

Neither. Boehner basically said that the ACA is here to stay. Big business lobbies to create barriers to entry to their business, thus keeping them as the dominant player. They do that with both parties.

Quote:One could go on and on, but I hope you get the point. If (and when) we can get the schit around here moving again, a lot of the hand wringing and very real fears, anxieties, a lot of people are feeling will ease. We can get back on a sound financial footing, get people back to work and OFF the federal dole, allowing these programs to shrink naturally.
That's the way home, and unfortunately that's the only way I can see.

I would love for that to happen, but we've been saying that for a very long time now. A lot of jobs have left and aren't coming back. Technology is going to push more people out of the workforce. At some point we have to figure out the future economy... I'm hoping it isn't all bartenders and servers, but instead some sort of middle class can reestablish itself.
11-03-2014 03:24 PM
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Brokeback Flamer Offline
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Post: #67
RE: if the republicans lose NC, we have the gutless libertarians to thank
So your policy is 'It's broken but I don't know how to fix it. I just want it fixed.' You will never get it fixed that way. It proves the point that on the surface it sounds great but the Devil as always is in the details.
Plus, more people are uneasy with the non intervention/isolationist policies of Libertarians than their stance on legalized pot
And it didn't help that Ron Paul was the face of Libertarianism for about a decade
11-03-2014 03:28 PM
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mlb Offline
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Post: #68
RE: if the republicans lose NC, we have the gutless libertarians to thank
(11-03-2014 03:28 PM)Brokeback Flamer Wrote:  So your policy is 'It's broken but I don't know how to fix it. I just want it fixed.' You will never get it fixed that way. It proves the point that on the surface it sounds great but the Devil as always is in the details.
Plus, more people are uneasy with the non intervention/isolationist policies of Libertarians than their stance on legalized pot
And it didn't help that Ron Paul was the face of Libertarianism for about a decade

I know how to fix it. I don't have the detailed budgets of each department in the US government, thus I cannot decipher where the wasted money is. I do believe, however, that you could probably slash the DOD budget by 40% and not hurt our active military, it would hurt all the contractors more than anything. Part of the reason why the DOD budget is so high is thanks to Lockheed, Northrup, and the other large contractors matching the bureaucracy of the government in their setup.

I'd imagine you could do that in a lot of other areas as well.
11-03-2014 03:40 PM
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Post: #69
RE: if the republicans lose NC, we have the gutless libertarians to thank
[Image: sean-haugh.jpg]

Pizza Deliveryman and Libertarian Senate candidate Sean Haugh. He is to Libertarians what Sheila Jackson-Lee is to Democrats. 03-lmfao
11-03-2014 06:35 PM
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georgia_tech_swagger Offline
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Post: #70
RE: if the republicans lose NC, we have the gutless libertarians to thank
(11-03-2014 06:35 PM)THE NC Herd Fan Wrote:  Pizza Deliveryman and Libertarian Senate candidate Sean Haugh. He is to Libertarians what Sheila Jackson-Lee is to Democrats. 03-lmfao


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The first potential GOP candidate for President who, if elected, could be his own first lady. Your move.
(This post was last modified: 11-03-2014 07:57 PM by georgia_tech_swagger.)
11-03-2014 07:56 PM
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THE NC Herd Fan Offline
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Post: #71
RE: if the republicans lose NC, we have the gutless libertarians to thank
(11-03-2014 07:56 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  
(11-03-2014 06:35 PM)THE NC Herd Fan Wrote:  Pizza Deliveryman and Libertarian Senate candidate Sean Haugh. He is to Libertarians what Sheila Jackson-Lee is to Democrats. 03-lmfao


[Image: 220px-Lindsey_Graham_official_photo.jpg]


The first potential GOP candidate for President who, if elected, could be his own first lady. Your move.

I'm not one of the blind Republicans that would vote for Flimsy Graham. That said 4% of NC voters will vote Libertarian Dominos to prove something, what I don't know.
11-03-2014 08:17 PM
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JMUDunk Offline
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Post: #72
RE: if the republicans lose NC, we have the gutless libertarians to thank
(11-03-2014 03:24 PM)mlb Wrote:  
(11-03-2014 02:05 PM)JMUDunk Wrote:  I'll quit this line, but I think the point has been made- as currently structured there is, quite literally, NO way we can cut our way to a balanced budget. No way. So why would we cheer lead for some candidate to lie to us about it.

Not with a Republican or Democrat heading the gov't, agreed.

There is NO way we can CUT our way to a balanced budget. None. Total Pipe dream. Not in my lifetime, not in yours, or your kids, or your kids kids.

Quote:The only way we'll ever balance the budget year over year and get to actually reducing the budget DEBT, the biggee, is to grow our way out of it. Growth! Aha!= increased tax receipts. Correct?

Well, we are at an all time high for tax receipts under Obama, correct? That sounds like an argument FOR him to me.


Comprehension- Economic growth. Not "all time highs", that simply means one dollar more than this time last year. Sustained growth rates in the 4,5, or even 6 and 7% annually,. Year over year, perhaps CAP spending in certain instances, you, by definition, won't get actual cuts.
Quote:Now, ask yourself this, fellow libertarian leaning conservatives- accepting the FACT of life, currently, that's it's gonna be either an R or a D occupying that senate seat over there, and that R or D is going to caucus and vote heavily with their respective party, who's more likely to get behind the causes of increased economic growth? Removing obstacles? Cutting red tape, regulations, and strangling restrictions to a whole host of economic opportunities out there?

Both sides are well known for creating red tape in areas and removing in others. The problem is that neither of them do it across the board, they do it for whatever political group they are pandering to at that moment.

Simply not true, could more be done, well of course. But this equivalency of Dims and Repubs in areas like this is either willfully misleading or intellectual laziness. "Both sides do it" is simply false.

Quote:Who's more likely to quit this silliness of throwing good money after bad on pie in the sky boondoggles, quit trying to pick winners and losers from DeeCee, and stop these various departments sprinkling our federal dollars out to friends, families and fans? Who's more likely to either rip the dreaded ACA out by it's roots and start over? Or short of that, address some of the business crippling requirements and stupid one size fits all, men and women alike, requirements therein?

Neither. Boehner basically said that the ACA is here to stay. Big business lobbies to create barriers to entry to their business, thus keeping them as the dominant player. They do that with both parties.

Who's more likely, have you listened to any of these new Senate candidates? Who cares what Boehner has said in a one-off comment somewhere, he gets one vote like everyone else. If the will is there in the House and a sizable majority in the Senate, actual REPEAL is supported by the majority of the Public. Will it happen? I kind of doubt it, in it's entirety, and maybe that's okay. some stuff people like in there. But, most of it can be removed (obstacles I'm talking about), improved or revised to make some sense.

Quote:One could go on and on, but I hope you get the point. If (and when) we can get the schit around here moving again, a lot of the hand wringing and very real fears, anxieties, a lot of people are feeling will ease. We can get back on a sound financial footing, get people back to work and OFF the federal dole, allowing these programs to shrink naturally.
That's the way home, and unfortunately that's the only way I can see.

I would love for that to happen, but we've been saying that for a very long time now. A lot of jobs have left and aren't coming back. Technology is going to push more people out of the workforce. At some point we have to figure out the future economy... I'm hoping it isn't all bartenders and servers, but instead some sort of middle class can reestablish itself.


No we haven't, 12-14 years is not a long time. Even 20-25 in the grand scheme isn't a real long time. It can be done, and it's been done before. Growth, sensible spending limits get us going in the right direction. And we've scratched the surface of what we can and will develop using technology and our ever improving knowledge in these areas. We're not bringing back the buggy whip, but similarly we're not amazed by having a personal computer on a desk in front of us anymore either.

A rolling stone gathers no moss. We gotta get this joint rolling again. Vote Republican!

Specially you un and underemployed millennials out there. most of you don't even know what good economic times look like, vote your wallets. Gov't is NOT your savior or answer.
(This post was last modified: 11-03-2014 08:29 PM by JMUDunk.)
11-03-2014 08:23 PM
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Smaug Offline
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Post: #73
RE: if the republicans lose NC, we have the gutless libertarians to thank
(11-03-2014 10:43 AM)oklalittledixie Wrote:  
(11-02-2014 07:33 PM)Smaug Wrote:  
(11-02-2014 07:13 PM)THE NC Herd Fan Wrote:  Tillis wasn't my first or second choice, but he's still much further right that Hagan, Obama's Rubber.




Stamp

Libertarians have this fascination with forcing their agenda into the Republican party by disrupting general elections. If Libertarian ideas were so great and so accepted they'd be winning elections.

Not easy to get a word in edgewise among the two well-heeled noise machines.

That's because your "word" is crap. If the libertarian message was half the size of your ego, you'd be seeing your candidates winning elections.

Instead, you pretend people don't notice you and those like you are merely liberals pushing the Democrat agenda. It's time you and those like you realized the jig is up. The cat is out of the bag. It was a nice little attempt at bringing the GOP to the left, but it has failed. The midterms will bring about a GOP onslaught and your true agenda will not come to fruition.

I didn't miss you at all.
11-03-2014 08:30 PM
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Post: #74
RE: if the republicans lose NC, we have the gutless libertarians to thank
(11-03-2014 07:56 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  
(11-03-2014 06:35 PM)THE NC Herd Fan Wrote:  Pizza Deliveryman and Libertarian Senate candidate Sean Haugh. He is to Libertarians what Sheila Jackson-Lee is to Democrats. 03-lmfao


[Image: 220px-Lindsey_Graham_official_photo.jpg]


The first potential GOP candidate for President who, if elected, could be his own first lady. Your move.

at least he doesn't deliver pizzas for a living.
11-14-2014 09:39 PM
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EagleX Offline
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Post: #75
RE: if the republicans lose NC, we have the gutless libertarians to thank
(11-02-2014 03:58 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  I'm sure Tillis refusing to go to Tea Party debates and having a nasty primary where he turned off the conservative grass roots and tea party groups, and subsequently never won them back, is totally unrelated to this.

we win. you lose.

we even overcame the 3-4% of the vote that you leach off of us.

(I would have replied earlier, but, being banned, and all, made it difficult)
11-14-2014 09:41 PM
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Post: #76
RE: if the republicans lose NC, we have the gutless libertarians to thank
(11-03-2014 07:56 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  
(11-03-2014 06:35 PM)THE NC Herd Fan Wrote:  Pizza Deliveryman and Libertarian Senate candidate Sean Haugh. He is to Libertarians what Sheila Jackson-Lee is to Democrats. 03-lmfao


[Image: 220px-Lindsey_Graham_official_photo.jpg]


The first potential GOP candidate for President who, if elected, could be his own first lady. Your move.

Ok, that was funny.
11-14-2014 11:44 PM
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vandiver49 Offline
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Post: #77
RE: if the republicans lose NC, we have the gutless libertarians to thank
(11-03-2014 01:25 PM)mlb Wrote:  
(11-03-2014 01:19 PM)JMUDunk Wrote:  Okay, so lets cut all those by a whopping 25%. Of course that would cripple our defenses, training, ability to deploy, keep and recruit troops, putting tens of thousands out of work at the same time, but ok.

Those are done, real "cuts", right off the top, 25%.

You're about 35-40% there. Now, what next?

1st of all, the US spends what on defense? The same amount as the next 10 countries in line? It would cripple us to cut programs like the tank plant that is producing tanks that go straight to the graveyard. Same goes with the humvee's that we build then give to other countries. How about those planes we bought for Afghanistan that was sold for scrap? Don't act like there isn't a ton of waste in the DOD that can't be cut without significant layoffs of the military.

I'm not a budget officer for the gov't, I don't know where all the waste is. I do know, however, that every department has a lot of waste that can be cleaned up.

Of course, I'd also switch to a national sales tax and eliminate most of the IRS thanks to that.

You could slash the military's budget in half and you would still end up with a world class fight force. Such a cut would force the military to truly evaluate the core missions of each service branch and whether or not they remain viable in the 21st century (i.e. opposed amphibious landings). But I'm only willing to slash the military's cut only if their is an equal one from all of the social obligations to gov't undertakes.
11-15-2014 09:26 AM
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Post: #78
RE: if the republicans lose NC, we have the gutless libertarians to thank
(11-15-2014 09:26 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  
(11-03-2014 01:25 PM)mlb Wrote:  
(11-03-2014 01:19 PM)JMUDunk Wrote:  Okay, so lets cut all those by a whopping 25%. Of course that would cripple our defenses, training, ability to deploy, keep and recruit troops, putting tens of thousands out of work at the same time, but ok.
Those are done, real "cuts", right off the top, 25%.
You're about 35-40% there. Now, what next?
1st of all, the US spends what on defense? The same amount as the next 10 countries in line? It would cripple us to cut programs like the tank plant that is producing tanks that go straight to the graveyard. Same goes with the humvee's that we build then give to other countries. How about those planes we bought for Afghanistan that was sold for scrap? Don't act like there isn't a ton of waste in the DOD that can't be cut without significant layoffs of the military.
I'm not a budget officer for the gov't, I don't know where all the waste is. I do know, however, that every department has a lot of waste that can be cleaned up.
Of course, I'd also switch to a national sales tax and eliminate most of the IRS thanks to that.
You could slash the military's budget in half and you would still end up with a world class fight force. Such a cut would force the military to truly evaluate the core missions of each service branch and whether or not they remain viable in the 21st century (i.e. opposed amphibious landings). But I'm only willing to slash the military's cut only if their is an equal one from all of the social obligations to gov't undertakes.

Perhaps the best indication of just how much waste there is in our military spending cones from a study by McKinsey, Google it at McKinsey on Government, Special Issue: Defense, March 2010.

Looking at the developed countries McKinsey found that total defense spending averaged 26% combat, 11% combat support, 63% other (essentially, overhead). That's bad enough, but for the US the numbers were 14% combat, 9% combat support, 77% other/overhead. And we were engaged in two actual combat operations at the time. This suggests we could cut something on the order of 25%, or about $150 billion, without touching combat or combat support. Where would I look for cuts:

1. Adopt the Sweden/Switzerland/Israel model with a larger portion of the force in a reserve status. The key to a strong military at an affordable price is to keep a large part of it in a reduced state of readiness, unless and until needed. It costs something on the order of $80,000-100,000 a year for the average person on active duty, more like $20,000 for the average reservist. We could cut 400,000 active duty troops, replace them with 800,000 reservists, increase potential end strength by 400,000, and save $20 billion in the process.

2. Bring the troops home. Let Europe pay for defending Europe, let Japan pay for defending Japan. Leave cadres there to provide maintenance and security for prepositioned equipment, mobilize reservists and fly them in if the balloon goes up. Right now, we have people there who would almost immediately need massive logistics support if anything happened. As long as it's a lot easier to put a soldier on a 777 than it is to put a tank, that strikes me as backwards. Because our overseas troops are in most cases highly subsidized by the host countries, this won't save a lot, but still worth doing.

3. Reform procurement. Instead of everything needing to be cutting edge state of the art (F-35, LCS, D-1000 Zumwalt class, Osprey, Ford class), have a few of those and round out the numbers with more proved and affordable platforms. Instead of 80% new/20% proved technology, go for 80% proved/20% new technology. You don't need Aegis destroyers doing pirate patrolman the IO. On the flip side, if the Russians really do have the capability to knock out the Aegis electronics, as the recent event involving a Russian jamming plane suggests, then it could be very useful to have ships with different systems around. Consider the Brit 22/42 combination during the Falklands.

4. Come up with a realistic threat assessment, develop a strategy to meet those threats, tailor the force to implement that strategy, and update continuously. Get rid of duplication and things you don't need. Get rid of top-heavy rank structures--the navy does not need more admirals than ships. Given the levels of terrorists and other asymmetric threats, I have thought of retaking the Marine Corps to become the anti-terror/asymmetric specialty commando force, and focus the other branches on conventional warfare. Keep in mind another lesson of the Falklands--the war you'll have to fight is the one you don't prepare for, and you'll have to fight it with what you have when it starts.

5. Never fight a war you don't intend to win. Either go in with overwhelming force and permissive rules of engagement, or don't go in.
(This post was last modified: 11-15-2014 11:36 AM by Owl 69/70/75.)
11-15-2014 11:35 AM
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Balance of Power Contest
Post: #79
RE: if the republicans lose NC, we have the gutless libertarians to thank
I protest voted for Haugh. Glad I did. I won't ever vote for the lesser of two evils again. I could care less if it had put one or the other in office because today there really is no difference. I lose both ways.
11-16-2014 11:52 AM
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mlb Offline
O' Great One
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Donators
Post: #80
Re: RE: if the republicans lose NC, we have the gutless libertarians to thank
(11-16-2014 11:52 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  I protest voted for Haugh. Glad I did. I won't ever vote for the lesser of two evils again. I could care less if it had put one or the other in office because today there really is no difference. I lose both ways.

Agreed. I'm tired of gutless Republicans going along with their big spending brethren and even bigger spending Democrats in their big govt plans. Of course, being that I choose to not vote for big govt I am labeled as a liberal by a few people on here.
11-16-2014 02:15 PM
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