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UNT post game thread
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Hambone10 Offline
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Post: #81
RE: UNT post game thread
(10-29-2014 11:02 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  I am sure everybody would want to make the mea culpa. That is the3 way all involved should respond.

But what do we want the coach to do about it? Is the assumption that he has just neglected to tell the player to not jump? My assumption is that he has been coaching the player to not jump. When a poster blames the jump on bad coaching, what does it mean but that the coach has not done the job, or not done it well? The oft assumed, and sometimes stated, reason for that is that the coach just doesn't care to do that.

If the assumption is that he has been doing his job, and the kid just isn't doing it right, I guess we want the coach to teach the kid harder not to jump. The infamous doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

Of course, we could be saying that the kid needs to be demoted. That certainly is nothing like calling out players.

So I choose not follow any of those three paths, but rely on the coaches to handle it as they see fit. It's not like they read this board to find out what to do.

The key word is "choose".

You want criticism? I saw three drops by one player. I don't like them.

Ooh, I feel so much better now.

I guess I just don't see that people have actually said that the reason player 'x' on play '15' in game '3' jumped offsides was bad coaching... as much as it is that because we seem to do something like that in similarly critical situations more often than seems normal, that apparently they haven't drilled that specific situation strongly/often enough. So you can blame the player for the specific incident, and the coach for the tendencies. Again, not saying that is my opinion... just that I think it better describes the situations. If the guy who made 3 drops seems to make 3 critical drops a game, yet we keep him on the field and keep throwing it to him, I'd say it fair to place a little blame on the coaches. Somewhere along the lines... from recruiting him to training him to scheming for him or for finding a replacement for him, at least in critical moments, they've failed to succeed.

I agree that the coaches don't read this board to find out what to do... and it isn't everyone's personality to be critical (I'd note your chosen handle)...

but there ARE things far worse than even non-constructive criticism.... like apathy.

Criticism, even if poorly articulated shows passion... passion for success.... and we don't need to be quelling passion for success. Directing it? Channeling it? Encouraging it to be constructive rather than destructive? Abso-bloomin'-lutely...

but not discouraging it.

Passion does not always result in well thought out, planned or executed posts
(This post was last modified: 10-29-2014 12:16 PM by Hambone10.)
10-29-2014 12:07 PM
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owl40 Offline
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Post: #82
RE: UNT post game thread
(10-29-2014 09:26 AM)Middle Ages Wrote:  
(10-28-2014 02:53 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  40, Fair enough on the criticism of players...

But how often are coaches personally attacked? I assume you mean as in the 'coach 'x' sucks', I can't stand him, he looks fat and slow and is a jerk like you said would also be unfair to players.

As to the 'did you see what coach z did', I guess it depends on what coach z did. In the cases where someone doesn't like the play call, that seems fair game to have an opinion. If it is being called out for 'coachspeak' or whatever, I'd say that those comments are often met with corrections (OO's supportive comments) or as I suggested, they are 'meaningless' complaints because some people don't want to say what they think.

I say that because as it turns out, Coach Fraud WAS a jerk, wasn't he? We're certainly not immune from having coaches make bad calls. The time out on 3rd and kneel down on 4th before half I think was fairly criticized.

In fairness, Coach Z really was terrible 03-wink

Todd Graham was personally attacked and then some. Calling him a d-bag is one of many examples of personal attacks being used on this board. We can all rationalize why it was ok and justified but no question it was personal.
10-29-2014 12:28 PM
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Hambone10 Offline
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Post: #83
RE: UNT post game thread
(10-29-2014 12:28 PM)owl40 Wrote:  Todd Graham was personally attacked and then some. Calling him a d-bag is one of many examples of personal attacks being used on this board. We can all rationalize why it was ok and justified but no question it was personal.

Like most ex's, once they are gone, especially if they leave us for 'another spouse', all bets are off.
10-29-2014 12:34 PM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #84
RE: UNT post game thread
(10-29-2014 12:07 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  If the guy who made 3 drops seems to make 3 critical drops a game, yet we keep him on the field and keep throwing it to him, I'd say it fair to place a little blame on the coaches. Somewhere along the lines... from recruiting him to training him to scheming for him or for finding a replacement for him, at least in critical moments, they've failed to succeed.

I'll just note that the same coaches coach the other players too. So when player X drops three passes, and player Y is offside twice, and the consensus the coach don't have the team prepared, I always wonder who prepared the other 20 starters.

But it is true, sometimes, that some players don't do as well as it was thought when they were recruited. Certainly that is a reflection on the coaches recruiting, but how do you bring it up without dissing the player? I thought this was about not calling out players.

and players can make mistakes - that is not a matter of ineptness, more one of consistency. They still might overall be the best choice for the position that we have.

Quote:but there ARE things far worse than even non-constructive criticism.... like apathy.

100% agree. I would much prefer bad criticism to disinterest. Much. But I would prefer well placed and well considered commentary to both.

JMHO
10-29-2014 12:37 PM
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Hambone10 Offline
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Post: #85
RE: UNT post game thread
(10-29-2014 12:37 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  But it is true, sometimes, that some players don't do as well as it was thought when they were recruited. Certainly that is a reflection on the coaches recruiting, but how do you bring it up without dissing the player? I thought this was about not calling out players.

And this is precisely the rub. Passionate people get pissed off when we fail, and don't want to blame the 20yr old kid, so they blame the 40 year old coach. Fair or not, it's only an expression of their desire to succeed.

Thanks for the constructive (imo) debate
10-29-2014 02:04 PM
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Tomball Owl Offline
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Post: #86
RE: UNT post game thread
(10-28-2014 10:17 PM)I45owl Wrote:  
(10-28-2014 03:59 PM)Tomball Owl Wrote:  Even the posters get criticized here, why should the coaches and players be immune?

Well, only because the posters are a motley collection of a bunch of ********.

+1

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10-29-2014 02:12 PM
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tramile12 Offline
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Post: #87
RE: UNT post game thread
(10-29-2014 02:04 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  
(10-29-2014 12:37 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  But it is true, sometimes, that some players don't do as well as it was thought when they were recruited. Certainly that is a reflection on the coaches recruiting, but how do you bring it up without dissing the player? I thought this was about not calling out players.

And this is precisely the rub. Passionate people get pissed off when we fail, and don't want to blame the 20yr old kid, so they blame the 40 year old coach. Fair or not, it's only an expression of their desire to succeed.

Thanks for the constructive (imo) debate

You know, these are all big boys we are talking about. You put yourself out in the public eye, you need to take the good and the bad. You should be able to call out a player and a coach by name, but understand there is a limit. It becomes painfully obvious when you are consistently picking on one guy, despite the one guy doing many positive things on AND off the field. We have our Bailiff detractors on this message board, who will criticize Bailiff no matter how well he coaches or how many wins he gets. I think thats tolerable as long as they lay off the kids, I'm not going to sit by and watch a player get needlessly picked on.
Plus, there are guys from Clemson, Alabama etc, who have had to take down Twitters and Facebooks because of death threats. I'm pretty sure we here at the parliament are grandmas compared to those crazy folk. Call out names when they do well, and call out the names when they perform poorly...but be nice.
(This post was last modified: 10-29-2014 02:16 PM by tramile12.)
10-29-2014 02:15 PM
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I45owl Offline
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Post: #88
RE: UNT post game thread
(10-29-2014 11:02 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  But what do we want the coach to do about it? Is the assumption that he has just neglected to tell the player to not jump? My assumption is that he has been coaching the player to not jump. When a poster blames the jump on bad coaching, what does it mean but that the coach has not done the job, or not done it well? The oft assumed, and sometimes stated, reason for that is that the coach just doesn't care to do that.

If the assumption is that he has been doing his job, and the kid just isn't doing it right, I guess we want the coach to teach the kid harder not to jump. The infamous doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

Having told players a number of times that if they're not getting called for offsides, they're not in the position they need to be, I can attest to the fact that sometimes it is the coach's fault. But, that's a different futbol.

If a player jumps offsides on 1st and 25, then that's almost certainly the player's fault. If the only time that said player jumps offsides is on 4th and 3 or less, then it's a fair bet that it is at least partly the coach's fault (if it's 4th and 4.95 and they jump, I've got questions about the player).
10-29-2014 02:34 PM
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I45owl Offline
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Post: #89
RE: UNT post game thread
(10-29-2014 02:15 PM)tramile12 Wrote:  Plus, there are guys from Clemson, Alabama etc, who have had to take down Twitters and Facebooks because of death threats. I'm pretty sure we here at the parliament are grandmas compared to those crazy folk. Call out names when they do well, and call out the names when they perform poorly...but be nice.

I guess that's one other reason to refrain from criticizing the players here, or at least temper the criticism. No the death threats, but the grandmas... along with moms and dads, I don't think public criticism of their children goes over very well.
10-29-2014 02:38 PM
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mrbig Offline
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Post: #90
RE: UNT post game thread
(10-29-2014 02:38 PM)I45owl Wrote:  I guess that's one other reason to refrain from criticizing the players here, or at least temper the criticism. No the death threats, but the grandmas... along with moms and dads, I don't think public criticism of their children goes over very well.

Easy way to test your theory ... PHILLIP GAINES IS HORRIBLE!05-footinmouth
(This post was last modified: 10-29-2014 04:06 PM by mrbig.)
10-29-2014 04:04 PM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #91
RE: UNT post game thread
(10-29-2014 02:15 PM)tramile12 Wrote:  Call out names when they do well, and call out the names when they perform poorly...but be nice.

I choose to do the former, and I also choose not to do the latter. Always try to be nice. Some people think I too nice. yes, they are big boys, but we are supposed to backing them, not critiquing them. We are not the East German judges of yore.
10-29-2014 04:25 PM
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Hambone10 Offline
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Post: #92
RE: UNT post game thread
(10-29-2014 04:04 PM)mrbig Wrote:  
(10-29-2014 02:38 PM)I45owl Wrote:  I guess that's one other reason to refrain from criticizing the players here, or at least temper the criticism. No the death threats, but the grandmas... along with moms and dads, I don't think public criticism of their children goes over very well.

Easy way to test your theory ... PHILLIP GAINES IS HORRIBLE!05-footinmouth

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10-29-2014 04:36 PM
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Jonathan Sadow Offline
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Post: #93
RE: UNT post game thread
(10-27-2014 05:42 AM)ESE84 Wrote:  
(10-26-2014 09:16 PM)Barney Wrote:  The MOB is darn close to extinction. MOB members are the MVP's of the student body's spirit, no question - they're invaluable in the stands - but the days of them being able to pull off an entertaining halftime are long gone. Band for credit, or partial scholarships, or something has to be done. Bringing on a student electric rock/pop band maybe. Or hold a College Battle of Bands. This would be a piece of cake for Shepherd School musicians.

I liked the young cheerleaders on the field with their shouts of "Go Rice". Why can't we do something similar with high school bands? The MOB could still perform in the middle, flanked by a stationary band of the week to add volume.

The North Texas traveling band was also small, but they were plenty loud.

I've posted about this before, but I guess it's time to explain again why this won't happen. The Shepherd School is vastly different from most university music departments. Most university music departments, like North Texas's, prepare students that, if they stay with music after graduation, will become some sort of grade-school music teacher in most cases. Typically, it's a departmental requirement for music majors to participate in marching band, and so these bands are full of talented musicians whose attendance is mandatory. The Shepherd School is more like a music conservatory that prepares students for careers as symphony, chamber, or solo performers, composers, or music scholars. What few that go into education will do so (after graduate work) as college-level faculty members. Over the years, The MOB has had a few Shepherd School members participate. This is always despite active discouragement from their Shepherd School advisors, who believe that participation in The MOB fritters away valuable time that could be spent practicing their real music. Basically, The Shepherd School views The MOB as an unwanted distraction for its students, and I can't see how it would ever co-operate with The MOB.

Band days, where grade-school bands are invited to participate in pregame and halftime performances, have been done in the past. Suffice it to say that they are very complicated logistically, and it's really only feasible to have them once a season, if that.

As for the game itself, there are two things I liked about it:

1. Farrimond picked up an unsportsmanlike conduct call after a punt when he went after one of the UNT players for something. When's the last time you've seen the punter get one of these calls? It's great when your punter represents!

2. The crowd chanted Carlos Harris's name in rhythm every time the reigning C-USA Offensive Player of the Week failed to make a play. How about that for situational awareness?
10-29-2014 06:17 PM
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S.A. Owl Offline
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Post: #94
RE: UNT post game thread
(10-29-2014 06:17 PM)Jonathan Sadow Wrote:  
(10-27-2014 05:42 AM)ESE84 Wrote:  
(10-26-2014 09:16 PM)Barney Wrote:  The MOB is darn close to extinction. MOB members are the MVP's of the student body's spirit, no question - they're invaluable in the stands - but the days of them being able to pull off an entertaining halftime are long gone. Band for credit, or partial scholarships, or something has to be done. Bringing on a student electric rock/pop band maybe. Or hold a College Battle of Bands. This would be a piece of cake for Shepherd School musicians.

I liked the young cheerleaders on the field with their shouts of "Go Rice". Why can't we do something similar with high school bands? The MOB could still perform in the middle, flanked by a stationary band of the week to add volume.

The North Texas traveling band was also small, but they were plenty loud.

I've posted about this before, but I guess it's time to explain again why this won't happen. The Shepherd School is vastly different from most university music departments. Most university music departments, like North Texas's, prepare students that, if they stay with music after graduation, will become some sort of grade-school music teacher in most cases. Typically, it's a departmental requirement for music majors to participate in marching band, and so these bands are full of talented musicians whose attendance is mandatory. The Shepherd School is more like a music conservatory that prepares students for careers as symphony, chamber, or solo performers, composers, or music scholars. What few that go into education will do so (after graduate work) as college-level faculty members.

Just a subtle disagreement with your characterization - which doesn't detract from your basic point: What you are really describing is the difference between a performance major and a music education major. Yes, Shepherd is a conservatory and doesn't have music ed majors. But non-conservatory music schools (including UNT's College of Music) can have plenty of performance majors who are not training to teach. And it is only the music ed majors that are required to be in the marching band. (Like I said, subtle.)
10-29-2014 07:04 PM
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I45owl Offline
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Post: #95
RE: UNT post game thread
(10-29-2014 04:36 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  
(10-29-2014 04:04 PM)mrbig Wrote:  
(10-29-2014 02:38 PM)I45owl Wrote:  I guess that's one other reason to refrain from criticizing the players here, or at least temper the criticism. No the death threats, but the grandmas... along with moms and dads, I don't think public criticism of their children goes over very well.

Easy way to test your theory ... PHILLIP GAINES IS HORRIBLE!05-footinmouth

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OWLMOM = 05-mafia

How long is the drive from San Antonio to New Orleans? 9 hours or so?

edit: I looked it up. 9 hours with time to stop for ammunition...
(This post was last modified: 10-29-2014 11:19 PM by I45owl.)
10-29-2014 11:15 PM
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