Assuming none of the current teams move up to the P5.
I know that is difficult and someone will throw out a bunch of Big 12 candidates. That topic has been beat to death so don't bother.

I am talking about what school or schools have over invested and came up short. Which programs will fade because they needed to make the grade. I have heard of one school that is supposed to be deep in debt for football facilities.

I guess you also have to take for granted the separation becomes wider . I see no reason to think it wouldn't.

Cincinnati is putting big money into its football facilities and is trying to renovate their basketball arena as well. Also, Tuberville is one of the highest paid coaches in college football and Cronin is getting paid big bucks too. I think we stand to lose a lot if we don't get more TV money soon.

The three left behind from the Old BIG EAST....

(10-24-2014 02:44 PM)Maize Wrote:  The three left behind from the Old BIG EAST....

One of those three wasn't hurt so much by the split as it was by its own suckage. USF has been playing with house money for a while now. They were just lucky to have been promoted to the BE in the first place.

I'm going to argue South Florida.

Cincinnati is hurt, but the effects of the Big East live on for them. The Big East was huge for them in recruiting as they could instantly beat out most the MAC and win some battles with Big Ten schools and that really hasn't changed. Losing the AQ status hurt, but if I was betting on CFP bowl appearances over the next decade, I'd bet them in more than any of the other ex-Big East teams. Cincinnati's ceiling is tad lower now, but I think only a tad vs. what it was. In basketball, I think the Bearcats are actually in a better place to rise nationally.

UConn is hurt in football, but had limited potential there anyway. Basketball is strong as ever, although it sucks loosing the old rivalries.

South Florida is the winner(looser) in my mind. They had more long term potential in the Big East to rise to be a much bigger power than anyone if they could really hit Florida talent (think about to the older examples of Florida State and Miami rising). They can still do that, but their ceiling is lower and Central Florida is now a full equal rather than a competitor striving to reach the same level.

(10-24-2014 03:18 PM)ken d Wrote:  

(10-24-2014 02:44 PM)Maize Wrote:  The three left behind from the Old BIG EAST....

One of those three wasn't hurt so much by the split as it was by its own suckage. USF has been playing with house money for a while now. They were just lucky to have been promoted to the BE in the first place.

That may be the case but they went from the Adult Table to the Folding Kiddie Table...the question was which 3 school that were hurt the most...everyone else in the G5 is still in the same basic spot but with a little more $$$ in their pocket...

(10-24-2014 03:23 PM)ohio1317 Wrote:  I'm going to argue South Florida.

Cincinnati is hurt, but the effects of the Big East live on for them. The Big East was huge for them in recruiting as they could instantly beat out most the MAC and win some battles with Big Ten schools and that really hasn't changed. Losing the AQ status hurt, but if I was betting on CFP bowl appearances over the next decade, I'd bet them in more than any of the other ex-Big East teams. Cincinnati's ceiling is tad lower now, but I think only a tad vs. what it was. In basketball, I think the Bearcats are actually in a better place to rise nationally.

UConn is hurt in football, but had limited potential there anyway. Basketball is strong as ever, although it sucks loosing the old rivalries.

South Florida is the winner(looser) in my mind. They had more long term potential in the Big East to rise to be a much bigger power than anyone if they could really hit Florida talent (think about to the older examples of Florida State and Miami rising). They can still do that, but their ceiling is lower and Central Florida is now a full equal rather than a competitor striving to reach the same level.

Very good point on USF in their past and now current relationship with UCF...

ESPN is holding USF down while also propping UCF up. Look no further than Jim Leavitt and George O'Leary.

What investment exists though that wouldn't be beneficial to the program regardless of whether they are a G5 or a P5?

New Stadiums/Expansions- Most of these were sorely needed by the schools that got them.

Coaching Salaries- The AAC has defined itself as a spender league but the median salary is still only 1.7 million. Contrast that with the B12 which is 3.25 million.

Basketball- Its hard to fault Memphis for building an expensive basketball practice facility when they have a program that contends regularly for a Final 4. Most schools are not spending in basketball unless they have a regular NCAA level program.

Here is my short list of schools:

South Florida- This program got off to a great start its first decade, getting into a BCS conference and as high as #2 in the rankings. A series with Miami Fl. This school looked like it was on the way to the top but then a bad coaching hire and reduced status to a G5 lowers their future prospects. I don't think it was a plan to be signing home and homes with the likes of WKU and NIU in 2014.

New Mexico- A school that in the 90's expanded its football stadium, started making some bowl games and moved into the Mountain West. Progress was being made but the bottom fell out when the MWC became a 3 horse race between BYU, TCU, Utah. Its the kind of football program that without playing in a P5 conference there is not going to be much attraction to it.

Southern Miss- Kind of an honorable mention here since they didn't stand much of a chance of getting into a P5 but they did invest heavily in their football stadium only to watch their program sink from CUSA 1.0, CUSA 2.0 to CUSA 3.0. There is so much more competition around them with ULM, La Tech, ULL, USA, Troy, Georgia St, Georgia Southern these days and they can no longer pitch the fact they are a winning program.

Eastern Michigan- No P5 chances here but invested a lot in their football and basketball program in the days of the pre Marshall MAC where the conference was psuedo-FCS. They are lost in today's MAC where many of the schools are recruiting B1G caliber athletes. Its no longer like it was where the MAC recruited only FCS level players and players made decisions on going wherever there is the most playing time. Now its who they think is the best coach and are less concerned about instant PT. EMU's new coach came from non-scholarship Drake so nobody wants to take a chance here. Its become a graveyard for the conference.

Houston building a new stadium and Colorado State if they get their stadium built might qualify.
Considering the ceiling has gotten lower.
The three Big East schools makes sense but they are not the only schools shooting for the sky.
UNLV is planning a new dome hard to justify if the MWC is the ceiling.
BYU if they can not sustain independence.
Boise has invested heavily and fast compared to other programs.
A future G5 if undefeated may not even finish top ten vs how close Boise was to a championship game.

UCF has invested more than USF who rents a stadium even if they lost out on a bright future.

I can remember back when you would talk about a conference like the MWC or the old WAC that it was taboo to point out its diminished stature relative to the PAC, SEC, Big 8, Big Ten ect. Only conference commissioners fully understood which were better positioned. The public would see a BYU or Air Force game and assume its big time.

That was a day when college sports was about turning on the games and not watching sports center or surfing online for the latest ESPN article. All of these talking heads continually bring up inferiority of first non-BCS and now non-P5 programs. They take the positions and viewpoints of the power brokers of college football.

These G5 coaching staffs are selling their programs to recruits like they have a lot to offer; conference bowl tie-ins, facilities, TV. HC that are now making close to $1 million on average at a G5 school. Recruiting a Top 60 class was at one time something only a BYU level program outside of the power conferences could do. Now you are seeing Top 60 classes out of schools like Florida Atlantic.

The power conference may mean academics and it certainly means money but after that its not as important as the coaching staff or tradition. Recruiting base and atmosphere.

If you've got commitment, you don't need the power conference.

(10-24-2014 07:40 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  I can remember back when you would talk about a conference like the MWC or the old WAC that it was taboo to point out its diminished stature relative to the PAC, SEC, Big 8, Big Ten ect. Only conference commissioners fully understood which were better positioned. The public would see a BYU or Air Force game and assume its big time.

That was a day when college sports was about turning on the games and not watching sports center or surfing online for the latest ESPN article. All of these talking heads continually bring up inferiority of first non-BCS and now non-P5 programs. They take the positions and viewpoints of the power brokers of college football.

These G5 coaching staffs are selling their programs to recruits like they have a lot to offer; conference bowl tie-ins, facilities, TV. HC that are now making close to $1 million on average at a G5 school. Recruiting a Top 60 class was at one time something only a BYU level program outside of the power conferences could do. Now you are seeing Top 60 classes out of schools like Florida Atlantic.

The power conference may mean academics and it certainly means money but after that its not as important as the coaching staff or tradition. Recruiting base and atmosphere.

If you've got commitment, you don't need the power conference.

I like the way you think.

With the right commitment level, dedicated fan support, and with a string of success, a G5 school doesn't need a P5 label to scceed.

Labeling a school a loser implies they have no chance of ever becoming relevant. If a few AAC schools took that attitude, they'll fall hard. I don't think anyone over there actually believes that they will never reach the P5 now.

(10-24-2014 06:15 PM)MJG Wrote:  Houston building a new stadium and Colorado State if they get their stadium built might qualify.
Considering the ceiling has gotten lower.
The three Big East schools makes sense but they are not the only schools shooting for the sky.
UNLV is planning a new dome hard to justify if the MWC is the ceiling.
BYU if they can not sustain independence.
Boise has invested heavily and fast compared to other programs.
A future G5 if undefeated may not even finish top ten vs how close Boise was to a championship game.

UCF has invested more than USF who rents a stadium even if they lost out on a bright future.

I'm not sure I agree the ceiling is any lower (for the 3 left-over Big East schools sure, but not everyone else). Now there is a guarantee for at least one team outside the power 5 to be in a New Years 6 bowl. There was no guarantee during the BCS era of a non-AQ making a BCS game. I think that actually makes the ceiling higher as there is a bit more to compete with for the conference championship.

Side Note: I think the BCS also increased the ceiling for many programs. Someone like Boise State never would have made the Fiesta Bowl which is really where they started making their name. You take out that chance against Oklahoma (whom was far stronger most the season) and Boise never rises.

(10-25-2014 09:56 AM)chiefsfan Wrote:  With the right commitment level, dedicated fan support, and with a string of success, a G5 school doesn't need a P5 label to scceed.

Labeling a school a loser implies they have no chance of ever becoming relevant. If a few AAC schools took that attitude, they'll fall hard. I don't think anyone over there actually believes that they will never reach the P5 now.

Things will change eventually (although not short term), but I agree the labels are over-emphasized. Boise State has twice the name value of half the P5 and a strong argument can be made that left-over Cincinnati will be in more CFP bowls than any of the ex-Big East teams now in power 5 conferences.

The easy answer.....UCONN

They are the current king of college bball....they were old Big East, and their University looks like a P5 school.....how are they not P5??

Some could say BYU, but I wouldn't call BYU a G5 team. They can't get in the Access Bowl. BYU is somehow alone in a limbo between the two

G5 will receive $900m less than P5 over next 12 years, they all are hurt by split.

With regard to This question I think all of the p5 call ups being bandied about because there are less potential seats at the table. Ucf started it's program in 79 and worked it's way up from d3. We have invested a ton in facilities and have the unique advantage of an enormous student population that increases alumni exponentially faster than others. We put a good product on the field and have done all of this without p5 money. Where it hurts us is recruiting because we don't have access to the nc. That's why the whole p5 argument regarding exclusion doesn't hold water. We lose recruits to that fact and I think we all have artificial ceilings because of that. I also believe that most of us at the top of the non p5 will eventually find homes. If we don't i do believe buttons will be pushed. The driver for these decisions is tv revenue. At least a big portion is as the networks control the income. Those of us who will drive revenue and have solid programs will make the cut. We average 17% of all of our living alumni (250k or so) attend our games. Most of them never had an OCS. That number will be closer to 400k in 10 years. At that same percentage that equates to 68k in the stands and a whole lot more donors as they season. Our academics are pretty solid and our research is getting better. The bottom line is I think for some of us this conversation goes away in 10 years but it will make it harder for us to get our programs up to speed once we make the jump


Posted from my mobile device using the CSNbbs App

(10-24-2014 03:24 PM)Maize Wrote:  

(10-24-2014 03:23 PM)ohio1317 Wrote:  I'm going to argue South Florida.

Cincinnati is hurt, but the effects of the Big East live on for them. The Big East was huge for them in recruiting as they could instantly beat out most the MAC and win some battles with Big Ten schools and that really hasn't changed. Losing the AQ status hurt, but if I was betting on CFP bowl appearances over the next decade, I'd bet them in more than any of the other ex-Big East teams. Cincinnati's ceiling is tad lower now, but I think only a tad vs. what it was. In basketball, I think the Bearcats are actually in a better place to rise nationally.

UConn is hurt in football, but had limited potential there anyway. Basketball is strong as ever, although it sucks loosing the old rivalries.

South Florida is the winner(looser) in my mind. They had more long term potential in the Big East to rise to be a much bigger power than anyone if they could really hit Florida talent (think about to the older examples of Florida State and Miami rising). They can still do that, but their ceiling is lower and Central Florida is now a full equal rather than a competitor striving to reach the same level.

Very good point on USF in their past and now current relationship with UCF...

Competitively, USF was hurt the most because we were dragged down to UCF level and have to compete as peers. That is awful.

Investment-wise, though, we actually made smart moves. We used that BCS money to upgrade almost all of our facilities for other sports including our basketball arena, and we pretty much paid as we went and so didn't get saddled with debt. And because we use RJS we didn't invest gobs of money in football that we would also now struggle to repay.

So while it sucks to be making peanuts now we were smart enough not to take on big debt.

UConn.